NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Del191229]

Firstly, sorry for the loss of your mother and I am sure that Sonja has done some incredible work. I just wanted to raise one point that many Aboriginal people do not share your view of the article being that of a 'white saviour' and many don't see that he has stuffed up the article for Aboriginal people. Many Aboriginals see this as potentially a watershed moment.

Yes, I understand that. I also know that indigenous players at North now and in our wider community are keen for Clarkson to coach.

It's an hugely complex situation. I know that to these kids Clarkson and Fagan - middle aged white guys in uniform making decisions over their lives about money and where they live - woukd have come across like the scumbag cops, social workers and teachers who haf bullied them and their families for decades.

It should and hopefully is a watershed moment. It could, hopefully still can, be handled in a way that provides everyone, especially the people who made the complaints, with dignity and respect.

That's why I reckon the Yoo-Rook Commission would be a really way forward for this.

But the way Rusty reported it meant it was going straight to courts, investigations, lawyers etc, where indigenous people get really shitty outcomes.

And that's what I reckon is going to happen here, shitty outcomes for the people who spoke to Egan and were featured in Jackson's article.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Ok. That’s not a bad answer.
The conflict in this thread seems to boil down to whether it’s possible to tell “a complete story” - as you put it - with balance, accuracy, and impartiality, when the subject is abuse and the only source material appears to be victims testimony.

I’d argue it’s very difficult to do that, if not impossible.

I bet every journo would come home and say , shit i should have done this, asked that.
I think it must be hard to get right .

 

[Del191229]

Thats not a problem , thats his job.

A journalist's job is not to just repeat anonymous allegations

 

[sr36]

I would have thought it was obvious I was talking about the league wide villification campaign against him including what Ling said then and on plenty of other occasions. He was abused by the public, other clubs and media shitheads while at Port and North. I don't think much of your footy club right now but you always treated LT well.

Wasn't Thomas criticised in the media and booed for much the same reasons that Jack Ginnivan was this year. - An act that was viewed as dirty and playing for free kicks?

 

[Del191229]

The old defamatory rant whilst claiming defamation trick.

We can add "defamatory" to "corroboration" in the list of words you don't know the meaning of.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Yes, I understand that. I also know that indigenous players at North now and in our wider community are keen for Clarkson to coach.

It's an hugely complex situation. I know that to these kids Clarkson and Fagan - middle aged white guys in uniform making decisions over their lives about money and where they live - woukd have come across like the scumbag cops, social workers and teachers who haf bullied them and their families for decades.

It should and hopefully is a watershed moment. It could, hopefully still can, be handled in a way that provides everyone, especially the people who made the complaints, with dignity and respect.

That's why I reckon the Yoo-Rook Commission would be a really way forward for this.

But the way Rusty reported it meant it was going straight to courts, investigations, lawyers etc, where indigenous people get really shitty outcomes.

And that's what I reckon is going to happen here, shitty outcomes for the people who spoke to Egan and were featured in Jackson's article.

Yoo-Rook has some incredible value and vision. How would the Yolngu, Palawa, Murri and Noongar go with a mainly Victorian based commission of academics and past judges etc? Very different cultures and challenges. Even the way story is recorded.

 

[Ricketz]

View attachment 1538988

That's the retraction. What was the defamation?

 

[Makeshift Park]

I bet every journo would come home and say , s**t i should have done this, asked that.
I think it must be hard to get right .

Sure. And this is why corroborating evidence is so important to this kind of story. What text messages exist on the players phones from the relevant period? Emails that confirm even small elements of their version of events? Witnesses? Any contemporaneous records from psychologists after their ordeal?

Why doesn’t the story cite anything -anything at all - like this?

In its absence, was it justified to publish the accounts simply because of the AFL has a pretty terrible history when it comes to supporting First Nations players, and because of our national shame more broadly?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Yes, I understand that. I also know that indigenous players at North now and in our wider community are keen for Clarkson to coach.

It's an hugely complex situation. I know that to these kids Clarkson and Fagan - middle aged white guys in uniform making decisions over their lives about money and where they live - woukd have come across like the scumbag cops, social workers and teachers who haf bullied them and their families for decades.

It should and hopefully is a watershed moment. It could, hopefully still can, be handled in a way that provides everyone, especially the people who made the complaints, with dignity and respect.

That's why I reckon the Yoo-Rook Commission would be a really way forward for this.

But the way Rusty reported it meant it was going straight to courts, investigations, lawyers etc, where indigenous people get really shitty outcomes.

And that's what I reckon is going to happen here, shitty outcomes for the people who spoke to Egan and were featured in Jackson's article.

Right now I reckon the Jackson article has opened up the issue and has made it possible to get a result the victims want.

The victims were dissatisfied with the HFC for many years. They had lost trust and had no faith that any positive result would come of the Egan report alone As the report would go back to the HFC and AFL for action.

It has been mentioned that lawyers are now in negotiation with the victims (dont know how true this is) . The AFL love to keep control of things, they have lost control now and the victims hold the power. The public have heard their story and the public are clearly siding with the victims.

The victims have engaged lawyers and can negotiate a settlement or they do have the choice still to deny a NDA which will force a court proceeding . AFL are now at the mercy of the victims , all they can do is throw $$$ at them and hope it all goes away.

The victims hold the power which is a huge difference to not being believed or ignored. I still believe that they this has not all happened by accident due to a journo wanting to write an article . This is a course that is being steered by the victims.
The victims are resentful and angry at HFC and must Be enjoying the fact that they are now empowered.

 

[sr36]

We can add "defamatory" to "corroboration" in the list of words you don't know the meaning of.

Do you honestly think that your rants against Jackson are less defamatory than Jackson's tweet regarding Sonja Hood?

And you talk about the importance of balance, you'd need to be in the gravitron to not fall over.

 

[sr36]

Sure. And this is why corroborating evidence is so important to this kind of story. What text messages exist on the players phones from the relevant period? Emails that confirm even small elements of their version of events? Witnesses? Any contemporaneous records from psychologists after their ordeal?

Why doesn’t the story cite anything -anything at all - like this?

In its absence, was it justified to publish the accounts simply because of the AFL has a pretty terrible history when it comes to supporting First Nations players, and because of our national shame more broadly?

The article mentions emails doesn't it? Would there be legal difficuties in quoting emails from HFC coaches?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Sure. And this is why corroborating evidence is so important to this kind of story. What text messages exist on the players phones from the relevant period? Emails? Were there any witnesses that could confirm their version of events? Any contemporaneous records from psychologists after their ordeal?

Why doesn’t the story cite anything -anything at all - like this?

In its absence, was it justified to publish the accounts simply because of the AFL has a pretty terrible history when it comes to supporting First Nations players, and because of our national shame more broadly?

Dont know why more details of emails and SMS etc were not used. Not sure if he saw them or what he knew what was in the report. I think some were mentioned in the article but not quoted .

I think the article should have gone ahead anyway. He was citing first hand experiences .

I can only speculate if he knew, these would be aired in good time via the report But agree more is better. It was an article about these folks experiences not intended in itself to be the final nail in the coffin of those accused. It was a story telling a not a trial.

I still think there is substance to the allegations which is why there was no comment from the trio. They were offered more time and could have had lawyers advice. I reckon they were told , Dont talk at all. Al’s statement was sort of weird I thought .
Their lack of feedback is where this story has run off the rails, I would have loved to just hear them talk to the allegations. “Yeah I remember that meeting but it went like this……” “ we were looking out for him because……” . Offer some context .
As it is its like the events did not happen at all in their eyes.

 

[Makeshift Park]

The article mentions emails doesn't it? Would there be legal difficuties in quoting emails from HFC coaches?

There is this extract from Kylie’s email:

“Not one person has contacted me and asked if I'm OK or needed help, nobody has checked that the baby is OK”

It’s sad and clearly she’s been through an awful ordeal, but it does nothing to substantiate the allegations of wrongdoing by the three named individuals.

 

[August192022]

Hang on. You have stated that Lindsay Thomas went to Port Adelaide and was racially abused within the Club? Not forgetting he actually joined North from the Port Adelaide Magpies as a junior and has historical ties to the club.

That is a serious allegation against a club who has one of the highest reputations for indigenous engagement in the AFL. To the point where its long term Indigenous Programs Manager (Pauly Vandenbergh) was poached by the AFL this year to run its programs.

And LT is still a well respected member of the PAFC community - he was at Alberton Oval on Saturday for the AFLW game against North.

Or are you talking more generally around the constant media attacks against LT - including AFL commentator and former Cat Cameron Ling calling his 2018 bump on Selwood a cowardly 'dog act'?

You really have a duty to provide clarity around your comment.

Nobody here has a duty to do anything. If you want accountability for comments then go to twitter and drop a few defamatory tweets.

 

[sr36]

There is this extract from Kylie’s email:

“Not one person has contacted me and asked if I'm OK or needed help, nobody has checked that the baby is OK”

It’s sad and clearly she’s been through an awful ordeal, but it does nothing to substantiate the allegations of wrongdoing by the three named individuals.

He's undoubtedly a very emotive writer who knows how to target the heartstrings.

He's written a compelling story that has jumped the hurdles of the ABC editors and lawyers and doesn't appear to have produced a squeak from the lawyers of those we keep being told are going to sue due to being defamed. In fact the article seems to have been supported by enough substance that it has helped to trigger an inquiry into the matter.

I see nothing at all to suggest that he hasn't written a story with a great deal of substance. Not sure why those demanding the benefit of the doubt for Clarko are going so far out of their way to cast doubt on the journo. Where is the substance to these doubts and insinuations?

 

[hawkman]

Wasn't Thomas criticised in the media and booed for much the same reasons that Jack Ginnivan was this year. - An act that was viewed as dirty and playing for free kicks?

A lot of it was that. There still may have been some racial element in it though

 

[western royboy]

He's undoubtedly a very emotive writer who knows how to target the heartstrings.

He's written a compelling story that has jumped the hurdles of the ABC editors and lawyers and doesn't appear to have produced a squeak from the lawyers of those we keep being told are going to sue due to being defamed. In fact the article seems to have been supported by enough substance that it has helped to trigger an inquiry into the matter.

I see nothing at all to suggest that he hasn't written a story with a great deal of substance. Not sure why those demanding the benefit of the doubt for Clarko are going so far out of their way to cast doubt on the journo. Where is the substance to these doubts and insinuations?

Shoot the Messenger Syndrome - hint Russell Jackson isn’t the problem here - attacking him is a deflection from the real issue at hand - which has been managed abominably by the AFL from day dot, so much so that they have no list total control of where it heads.

 

[Ricketz]

Sure. And this is why corroborating evidence is so important to this kind of story. What text messages exist on the players phones from the relevant period? Emails that confirm even small elements of their version of events? Witnesses? Any contemporaneous records from psychologists after their ordeal?

Why doesn’t the story cite anything -anything at all - like this?

In its absence, was it justified to publish the accounts simply because of the AFL has a pretty terrible history when it comes to supporting First Nations players, and because of our national shame more broadly?

What are you talking about? There is corroborating evidence from six eyewitnesses.

You think these people all got together and concocted the story? You think they took notes?

What bar would satisfy you? Photos?

The ABC twice contacted the people from Hawthorn who the allegations were made against and gave them the opportunity to deny the allegations before the publication - they chose not to.

Should the AFL not have published this?

"The AFL takes extremely seriously all matters where people report experiencing harm, discrimination or mistreatment in our industry. We recently received a document from the Hawthorn Football Club outlining very serious allegations gathered during the recently completed review by an external consultant who interviewed current and former Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander players.

The experiences outlined in the document are extremely serious and require further and full examination."

 

[Area51]

He's undoubtedly a very emotive writer who knows how to target the heartstrings.

He's written a compelling story that has jumped the hurdles of the ABC editors and lawyers and doesn't appear to have produced a squeak from the lawyers of those we keep being told are going to sue due to being defamed. In fact the article seems to have been supported by enough substance that it has helped to trigger an inquiry into the matter.

I see nothing at all to suggest that he hasn't written a story with a great deal of substance. Not sure why those demanding the benefit of the doubt for Clarko are going so far out of their way to cast doubt on the journo. Where is the substance to these doubts and insinuations?

There doesn't need to be any. Casting aspersion at the messenger is one of oldest tricks going around for those with vested interests.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Chris Lewis is an example. Have had many chats with him. The abuse he copped was nothing short of shameful.

Certainly remember a very high profile incident involving Todd Viney that was disgracefully portrayed in the media at the time.

Nicky Winmar and Michael Long retrospectively get the ‘praise’ but Chris Lewis was calling out racism in the AFL before anyone.

 

[Del191229]

The ability to get the complete story out of someone in a manner that is empathetic yet still getting the nitty gritty Of the story via questioning . You need to have some insight as to where the teller is going and help them get there.

One person's account by definition can never be the complete story.

I mean there's a whole artistic tradition based on this incontrovertible reality.

 

[Del191229]

That's the retraction. What was the defamation?

If you knew anything about defamation you'd know repeating them is a bad idea.

 

[Ricketz]

If you knew anything about defamation you'd know repeating them is a bad idea.

Seems like the two parties have reconciled the misunderstanding and you are riding the wave of indignation to me.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Seems like the two parties have reconciled the misunderstanding and you are riding the wave of indignation to me.

I'll say.

I mean, wow. We've all been witness to one of the greatest melts in BigFooty history!

 

[Del191229]

Yoo-Rook has some incredible value and vision. How would the Yolngu, Palawa, Murri and Noongar go with a mainly Victorian based commission of academics and past judges etc? Very different cultures and challenges. Even the way story is recorded.

It shits me there's no indigenous footy journo who could have done this. Tony Armstrong is great but he's a broadcaster and not really at the stage of his career to handle something like this.

Jack Latimore at The Age would have been a far better option that Jackson too.