NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[sr36]

Equally important question. Maybe more important. Are the alleged experiences confined to a particular group of players or were the behaviours more widespread?

I am disappointed, but not surprised, that the ism industry have to date shown no interest at all in the second question and rushed headlong to the barricades. Which is rather counter productive to the goal of defeating ism.

I think that you're placing too much importance on this question. It matters only in terms of whether the coaches had racist attitudes. As counterintuitive as it may seem, their attitudes don't really matter. What matters on the racism front is whether their behaviour disadvantaged their indigenous employees.

And coaches imposing and coercing a particular lifestyle expectation on their employees is extremely likely to have negative outcomes for people from a different culture to their boss, regardless if those same expectations were applied to all.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

That gets to the really curly dilemma of the receiver's interpretation versus the intent of the speaker. They both matter, but I think we've shifted too far towards the receiver's interpretation and are giving it too much primacy.

And if that's the basis of the defence in this situation, as I've said all along - they're screwed.

Rightly or wrongly, it's no longer tolerated.

 

[sr36]

If they were caucasian would it make Kennett less of an a-hole? People need to watch what they say, and if they don't and it gets perceived badly that is not on the receiver, it is entirely the problem of the sender of the message. Especially when power dynamics are involved.

Not always. I think most agree that Jackson's snipe at Hood wasn't him being out of line, not her.

 

[sr36]

And if that's the basis of the defence in this situation, as I've said all along - they're screwed.

Rightly or wrongly, it's no longer tolerated.

I agree in the Clarkson case. The coaches just shouldn't be getting that involved in player's social lives. Outrageous overreach.

Just referring to Kennett's ripped jeans comment.

 

[Ricketz]

Not always. I think most agree that Jackson's snipe at Hood wasn't him being out of line, not her.

Well that's because he personalised something that wasn't directed at him. He was entirely justified for having a crack at Maguire though.

 

[Laphroaig]

Was there ever a Black Australia policy where white kids were taken from their families, made to dissociate and told to look forward not back?

Whether you choose to admit it or not, the parallels between what these young indegenous players have reported and the segregation at the hands of the Australian government for thousands of kids rings true for a lot of First Nations people, so it really doesn’t matter if Clarkson decided that he’d do this to all the “underprivileged” draftees or just the black skinned ones, it’s a hark back to the days of “if you want to be accepted by us, you’ll have to forget who you really are”.

Thank you for the utterly irrelevant association.

So just to be clear. Your contention is that even in the case where the alleged actions might be shown to be NOT determined in their application by racial factors, then there is still racism in the actions?

Wow. What a brave new world we live in.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It would matter what colour you are because if you aren't Indigenous, your ability to relate would obviously be different.

You do not get to decide what grounds make it to be interpreted as racist. It was clearly not harmless, because it caused harm!

So if anyone says anything at all , it could be racist if an indigenous person hearing it decides to take it that way.
If people avoid saying anything to avoid being racist, they can be also be considered racist.

Do you not see how this kind of attitude can make things worse?

 

[Laphroaig]

I'm not objecting to anything. But I am also not entertaining something that is irrelevant to the discussions at hand.

It is only irrelevant to the discussions at hand if you want to control the direction of the discussions at hand to a prejudged outcome and prevent any deviation from that.

 

[Laphroaig]

I think that you're placing too much importance on this question. It matters only in terms of whether the coaches had racist attitudes. As counterintuitive as it may seem, their attitudes don't really matter. What matters on the racism front is whether their behaviour disadvantaged their indigenous employees.

It's counterintuitive because it is batshit crazy.

So I walk into a bar, get riled at something I don't like, start a fight and beat up 10 guys. Really bad of me. Disgraceful.

But wait. There's more! Two of them are indigenous persons. Therefore their broken noses are a result of racism. Really?

Beam me up Scottie.

 

[Laphroaig]

Do you not see how this kind of attitude can make things worse?

Sadly, too many people don't.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Thank you for the utterly irrelevant association.

So just to be clear. Your contention is that even in the case where the alleged actions might be shown to be NOT determined in their application by racial factors, then there is still racism in the actions?

Wow. What a brave new world we live in.

Yeah, no surprise you don’t get it.

Keep yelling at clouds.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

So if anyone says anything at all , it could be racist if an indigenous person hearing it decides to take it that way.
If people avoid saying anything to avoid being racist, they can be also be considered racist.

It's not that hard to consider people's feelings when you speak to them.

I mean, we have been doing it for thousands of years.


The issue here is that a lot of white people simply haven't made the effort to understand what is offensive to others, and why.

We're not always going to get it right, and if you don't you own it and learn from it.

It's counterintuitive because it is batshit crazy.

So I walk into a bar, get riled at something I don't like, start a fight and beat up 10 guys. Really bad of me. Disgraceful.

But wait. There's more! Two of them are indigenous persons. Therefore their broken noses are a result of racism. Really?

Beam me up Scottie.

Better example would be if a guy mouthed off at you at the pub, and you punched him in the face.

Fair enough.

But if a woman mouthed off at you at the pub, and you punch her in the face.....bad.

Or make fun of your Aussie mate's accent at work - fair enough.

But make fun of an Indian guy's accent at work - not cool.

Or get footballers to go on a camp, and have an activity where one stands in the middle and gets abused by his teammates. This may be fine for the white guys - but the indigenous guys, not so much.



It's either naive or ignorant to not be aware that the same behaviour isn't ways acceptable, dependant on who it happens to.

 

[the big lebowski]

Yeah, no surprise you don’t get it.

Keep yelling at clouds.

Well speaking of not getting it, you equated the forceful stealing of children with encouraging/facilitating grown men living in an environment that was conducive to being a professional athlete.

Which has been standard practice for footy clubs for 20 years.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Well speaking of not getting it, you equated the forceful stealing of children with encouraging/facilitating grown men living in an environment that was conducive to being a professional athlete.

Which has been standard practice for footy clubs for 20 years.

No, I drew parallels with 18yr olds being told that they needed to cut ties with their family, “lose the partner” and remove themselves from their culture with that of the stolen generation, which if you had any understanding of Australian history and treatment of Indegenous Australians you’d understand why so many Indigenous Australians have done the exact same thing.

Show me where it’s been standard practice for coaches or clubs to tell players that they need to cut ties with family or partners?

 

[gouki88]

So if anyone says anything at all , it could be racist if an indigenous person hearing it decides to take it that way.
If people avoid saying anything to avoid being racist, they can be also be considered racist.

Do you not see how this kind of attitude can make things worse?

What a terrifying world it would be, where people try to not say things that are racist.

 

[the big lebowski]

No, I drew parallels with 18yr olds being told that they needed to cut ties with their family, “lose the partner” and remove themselves from their culture with that of the stolen generation, which if you had any understanding of Australian history and treatment of Indegenous Australians you’d understand why so many Indigenous Australians have done the exact same thing.

Show me where it’s been standard practice for coaches or clubs to tell players that they need to cut ties with family or partners?

Luke hodge

 

[gouki88]

Luke hodge

Not equivalent, try again

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Luke hodge

Luke Hodge being told to not party with his colac mates and to get off the kfc is the same as what has been alleged by these players is it!?

Luke Hodge was told to break up with partner if he wanted to make it?
Luke Hodge had his pregnant girlfriend told to not contact him again and had staff warn her off, did he?
Luke Hodge had his phone taken off him, and told that he wasn’t to contact his family?

 

[the big lebowski]

No, I drew parallels with 18yr olds being told that they needed to cut ties with their family, “lose the partner” and remove themselves from their culture with that of the stolen generation, which if you had any understanding of Australian history and treatment of Indegenous Australians you’d understand why so many Indigenous Australians have done the exact same thing.

Show me where it’s been standard practice for coaches or clubs to tell players that they need to cut ties with family or partners?

More to the point though, if anyone at hawthorn told a player to seperate from associates becuase they were indigenous then I’d agree that those doing so would be scum bags.

But if officials thought that someone in their life was holding them back from becoming the best footballer they can be that’s perfectly normal.

Or if there were drug issues and domestic violence issues that might also make it perfectly normal.

Why do you think hawthorn targeted these specific 3 players?

 

[the big lebowski]

Luke Hodge being told to not party with his colac mates and to get off the kfc is the same as what has been alleged by these players is it!?

Luke Hodge was told to break up with partner if he wanted to make it?
Luke Hodge had his pregnant girlfriend told to not contact him again and had staff warn her off, did he?
Luke Hodge had his phone taken off him, and told that he wasn’t to contact his family?

Lol had his phone taken off him. Was he locked in a room as well. My god what some of you clearly want to believe…….

Was it years of forced separation? It blows my mind how people can’t think for themselves at all.

These are adults. Not captive children. They can and did make decisions for themselves.

Wake up to reality

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

More to the point though, if anyone at hawthorn told a player to seperate from associates becuase they were indigenous then I’d agree that those doing so would be scum bags.

But if officials thought that someone in their life was holding them back from becoming the best footballer they can be that’s perfectly normal.

Or if there were drug issues and domestic violence issues that might also make it perfectly normal.

Why do you think hawthorn targeted these specific 3 players?

I don’t believe Hawthorn did target 3 players.

I believe Clarkson, Fagan and Burt had dealings with Indigenous players that at best were clumsy and at worst have opened them up to allegations of systemic racism, as recalled by the unnamed assistant.

 

[gouki88]

Lol had his phone taken off him. Was he locked in a room as well. My god what some of you clearly want to believe…….

Was it years of forced separation? It blows my mind how people can’t think for themselves at all.

These are adults. Not captive children. They can and did make decisions for themselves.

Wake up to reality

Just bringing out all the textbook victim blamer lines with this one. Pathetic, really.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Lol had his phone taken off him. Was he locked in a room as well. My god what some of you clearly want to believe…….

Was it years of forced separation? It blows my mind how people can’t think for themselves at all.

These are adults. Not captive children. They can and did make decisions for themselves.

Wake up to reality

You seem to be absolutely clueless to the pressures that an 18-year-old would feel after joining an AFL club, and being told “this is what you need to do to be successful here”.

 

[the big lebowski]

I don’t believe Hawthorn did target 3 players.

I believe Clarkson, Fagan and Burt had dealings with Indigenous players that at best were clumsy and at worst have opened them up to allegations of systemic racism, as recalled by the unnamed assistant.

Unnamed hey…..

You want to believe it imo.

You equated police coming into indigenous homes and stealing children from their parents with advising a professional athlete to be professional.

Sure I can accept thinsgmoght lot have been handled as we would expect them to a decade later, but you are frothing for a villain.

Desperate for one infact.

Not one aspect of the stories makes sense

- he forced me to get an abortion, but we didn’t get an ablation, and then later with a different fetus we got an abortion

- despite medical advice that no one knows why a miscarriage happens, I can definitively tell what caused another ladies

- I was forced to cut contact with people, I was unable to use a phone, write an email, or use social media - sure

- the aflpa, cops, player manager were all aware of the horrors and did nothing

- we want to remain anonymous, so let’s talk to a jurno, implement out lawyer strategy etc all at a moments notice (or with orchestrated planning)

- why aren’t they lodging paperwork to sue the afl, hawthorn etc? Please tell me why they haven’t after 10 years. Please

 

[the big lebowski]

Just bringing out all the textbook victim blamer lines with this one. Pathetic, really.

Just regurgitating one liners like victim
Blaming so you don’t have to think critically