The most important metric when judging a player's career ?

[Cuzz09]

Who’s career ranks higher?

Matthew Richardson, 3 all Australians, 0 Brownlows, 0 Coleman medals

Or

Shane Woewoedin, 0 All Australians, 1 Brownlow

Career: Richard

2000 season: WoeWoe

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[Trav 20]

True, but post 2000 it is comfortably the best metric.

You'll note in the OP I have it listed at 1.

I should clarify my earlier post (not for you specifically) AA were great achievements in the 70s and 80s, but as the criteria was so different they're not the measure of a player's career that the current iteration is.

 

[Falcon3518]

Who’s career ranks higher?

Matthew Richardson, 3 all Australians, 0 Brownlows, 0 Coleman medals

Or

Shane Woewoedin, 0 All Australians, 1 Brownlow

Richo because he kicked 800 goals and 3 AAs. Together it trumps a Brownlow. You gotta look at the whole career.


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[Falcon3518]

I think it is a pretty simplistic view to say the forward that kicked the most goals that year was the best. I mean often it is true but not always. Plus where are the specific awards for the ruckmen, or the key defender? What about the small defender, or small forward? Do we need individual awards for every position?

Also I think we can all agree that Buddy was better than Cooney in 2008, which means the entire point of the Brownlow is suddenly gone if they are selecting players who clearly were not the best in said year.

I honestly believe forwards and mids are where your best players are. I don’t really care about the rest. Does anybody have a backman or Ruck as their GOAT? It’s extremely rare, I don’t know anybody that does.

You primarily judge them on AAs.

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[Falcon3518]

well so be it...coz who is a better judge of the game than the coaches who just coached the game ? A-list celebs ? armchair critics ? journos ?...mmm maybe the players themselves but then, they could be thick as thieves...

Goal kicking midfielders influence the game the most imo. Forwards can be shut down easily with no supply.


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[Falcon3518]

I think it is a pretty simplistic view to say the forward that kicked the most goals that year was the best. I mean often it is true but not always. Plus where are the specific awards for the ruckmen, or the key defender? What about the small defender, or small forward? Do we need individual awards for every position?

Also I think we can all agree that Buddy was better than Cooney in 2008, which means the entire point of the Brownlow is suddenly gone if they are selecting players who clearly were not the best in said year.

Also who had a better year Woewodin 2000 (Brownlow) or Rozee 2022 (AA team)?

I think everybody agrees 1 Brownlow even with its flaws is better than 1 AA.


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[RonnieRaven]

Definitely AFLCA for me because no one knows (inside knowledge) about the game more than the actual coach...(even if someone replies with Mark Neeld says hello)

Other awards ? well they could be judged by "celebs" for all we know...why I stumbled across this term the other day describing Damo...."star journalist"...SNORT

But there’s always glitches that make you question all awards.
Judd and Fyfe have 2 Brownlows 2 MVPs No AFLCAs and at their peaks were unstoppable, only injury could stop them.
Marc murphy and Dan Hannebery won AFLCAs if we put up poll who would seriously take the latter two over Fyfe and Judd?!

 

[Blackhawk42]

But there’s always glitches that make you question all awards.
Judd and Fyfe have 2 Brownlows 2 MVPs No AFLCAs and at their peaks were unstoppable, only injury could stop them.
Marc murphy and Dan Hannebery won AFLCAs if we put up poll who would seriously take the latter two over Fyfe and Judd?!

Go and compare the Rising Star award to the Coaches association young player of the year award. Makes you question why the rising star is the 'superior' award that's for sure.

 

[RonnieRaven]

Go and compare the Rising Star award to the Coaches association young player of the year award. Makes you question why the rising star is the 'superior' award that's for sure.

And this will help solve judging best players ever how?
I said all awards, you can use priddis and woewodin for the Brownlow.
Robram and cantstandya for flags.
Heppel and Taylor for rising star.
Griffin and heppel for AFLCA young player.
At least with Brownlow it’s fairest so can debate that a bit more.
No one from a WA team has won a AFLCA champion player award.
Dual Brownlow and Dual MVP winners which is rare air to never win a coach award cheapens it for me.

 

[Blackhawk42]

And this will help solve judging best players ever how?

If you read back through this thread, it's full of very respectful debate about what should be classed as the higher metric for judging a players career.

The rising star is regarded as the highest individual award for a young player, but if you compare the winners from the past 20 years, the coaches association winners have been a much better group. It's barley even close.

Just another complexity to this discussion.

 

[RonnieRaven]

If you read back through this thread, it's full of very respectful debate about what should be classed as the higher metric for judging a players career.

The rising star is regarded as the highest individual award for a young player, but if you compare the winners from the past 20 years, the coaches association winners have been a much better group. It's barley even close.

Just another complexity to this discussion.

Yes you are correct, the AFLCA stands up a lot better but is expected when eligibility is 2 full seasons of footy unlike rising star which is judged on the first 10-30 games.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Yes you are correct, the AFLCA stands up a lot better but is expected when eligibility is 2 full seasons of footy unlike rising star which is judged on the first 10-30 games.

It hasn't always been the deciding factor however. It's votes over a two year period I believe? As an example, Newcombe didn't poll any in 2021, so he and Daicos essentially started 2022 from scratch.

 

[RonnieRaven]

It hasn't always been the deciding factor however. It's votes over a two year period I believe? As an example, Newcombe didn't poll any in 2021, so he and Daicos essentially started 2022 from scratch.

Yes but it’s easier to see someone’s true capabilities the more games they play.
Dusty won diddly squat in his first 4 years, Sam Walsh achieved bnf AA rising star in his first 4 years.
If Walsh back problems persist he will end up half the player.
I know hawks have a desperation for newcomb recognition, I think he is a great player, but don’t be someone that brings a player in that’s barely relevant to the thread.
By the way serong has won both the rising star and AFLCA young player, talked about as captain among fans and was bog in two finals played at 21.
Just relax the player will do the walking.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

They do. But I don't rate any to the same extent and with the same frequency as the 10 I listed. Who would you replace in the 10 I listed, and with which defender or ruckman?

At the moment, I'd definitely have Weitering and Moore (and maybe even May and Andrews) in the current top ten for impact on games. They save goal after goal, and the first two are even brilliant rebounders. Rance was amazing for us through 2016-18 - oppo supporters hated him but he totally controlled games for Richmond. I'd go to watch him do it in person regularly - TV never did him justice and we don't get near finals in 2014-18 without him. Ditto McGovern, although I didn't see as much of him live.

Within the last 4 or 5 years, I'd have had Grundy (best player in the league in 2018 imo) and Gawn (probably No 1 in 2021) in the top 10 for impact on games. Dean Cox could easily fit in the Top 10 over the last 20-30 years.

 

[Arr0w]

Individual and team awards are great, stat counts only paint a portion of the picture.

For me it's the impact a player has to either halt or more importantly swing momentum

Guys like GAS, Matthews, Dusty, Judd, Buddy, Carey, Scarlett, etc

 

[Fadge]

At the moment, I'd definitely have Weitering and Moore (and maybe even May and Andrews) in the current top ten for impact on games. They save goal after goal, and the first two are even brilliant rebounders. Rance was amazing for us through 2016-18 - oppo supporters hated him but he totally controlled games for Richmond. I'd go to watch him do it in person regularly - TV never did him justice and we don't get near finals in 2014-18 without him. Ditto McGovern, although I didn't see as much of him live.

Within the last 4 or 5 years, I'd have had Grundy (best player in the league in 2018 imo) and Gawn (probably No 1 in 2021) in the top 10 for impact on games. Dean Cox could easily fit in the Top 10 over the last 20-30 years.

Hmmm.

So you've named 9 different players, 8 of which were assessed over a short term whereas I have assessed over a 40 year period.

Rance, McGovern, May, Andrews, Moore and Weitering as backmen - all great players (and I've even listed them in order for you) - but none anywhere near the Top 10 in the past 40 years.

Grundy and Gawn likewise. Who does Cox replace from the following for Top 10 players (based on extent of and regularity of that significant influence):
1. Gary Ablett Senior
2. Wayne Carey
3. Tony Lockett
4. Chris Judd
5. Lance Franklin
6. Gary Ablett Junior
7. Greg Williams
8. Michael Voss
9. Jason Dunstall
10. Joel Selwood

Cox might sneak into my top 50 of the past 40 years.

 

[Dustys Chopstick]

Hmmm.

So you've named 9 different players, 8 of which were assessed over a short term whereas I have assessed over a 40 year period.

Rance, McGovern, May, Andrews, Moore and Weitering as backmen - all great players (and I've even listed them in order for you) - but none anywhere near the Top 10 in the past 40 years.

Grundy and Gawn likewise. Who does Cox replace from the following for Top 10 players (based on extent of and regularity of that significant influence):
1. Gary Ablett Senior
2. Wayne Carey
3. Tony Lockett
4. Chris Judd
5. Lance Franklin
6. Gary Ablett Junior
7. Greg Williams
8. Michael Voss
9. Jason Dunstall
10. Joel Selwood

Cox might sneak into my top 50 of the past 40 years.

Selwood top 10, why? He hasn’t won a major award. Leaving Dusty aside, Ricciuto would also have him covered easily.


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[Fadge]

Selwood top 10, why? He hasn’t won a major award. Leaving Dusty aside, Ricciuto would also have him covered easily.

For the criteria I clearly explained in my original post.

 

[Dustys Chopstick]

For the criteria I clearly explained in my original post.

Influence and leadership? With Selwoods finals record under his captaincy and Resume I wouldn’t have him near the top 10. Maybe top 40. Each to their own I guess.


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[Blackhawk42]

Yes but it’s easier to see someone’s true capabilities the more games they play.
Dusty won diddly squat in his first 4 years, Sam Walsh achieved bnf AA rising star in his first 4 years.
If Walsh back problems persist he will end up half the player.
I know hawks have a desperation for newcomb recognition, I think he is a great player, but don’t be someone that brings a player in that’s barely relevant to the thread.

It's absolutely relevant. It's the most recent example when comparing two individual awards. Plenty of this discussion is centred around where posters in this thread rank the importance of awards and statistics.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Hmmm.

So you've named 9 different players, 8 of which were assessed over a short term whereas I have assessed over a 40 year period.

Rance, McGovern, May, Andrews, Moore and Weitering as backmen - all great players (and I've even listed them in order for you) - but none anywhere near the Top 10 in the past 40 years.

Grundy and Gawn likewise. Who does Cox replace from the following for Top 10 players (based on extent of and regularity of that significant influence):
1. Gary Ablett Senior
2. Wayne Carey
3. Tony Lockett
4. Chris Judd
5. Lance Franklin
6. Gary Ablett Junior
7. Greg Williams
8. Michael Voss
9. Jason Dunstall
10. Joel Selwood

Cox might sneak into my top 50 of the past 40 years.

Selwood is nowhere near the top 10. He's been a great player and an fantastic leader of the Cats over a sustained period of time, but as an individual controlling the outcome of games just not comparable to the rest of your list. I was using the Top 10 of current players to provide a snapshot of how the game has changed from an individualist/collectivist point of view.

We need to take into account when compiling a long-term list that the game has changed significantly over the past 20 or so years. It does not have that individualist element it once had, and is based more around the collaboration of a forward/midfield/backline group, and even the synergy between these lines is critical nowadays. The days of the Tigers having to try 5 different guys (one at a time, mind you ) on GAS because he'd already notched up 8 goals by half time are long gone. A defender back then could have as many individual wins on an opponent as he lost and still have 12 goals kicked on him.

Modern KPF's just cannot compete statistically with KPF's of yesteryear. Buddy, and to a lesser extent JReiwoldt and Hawkins, are not afforded the wealth of opportunities to compete one-on-one that Dunstall, Lockett, GAS, Carey etc were afforded, so their numbers and perceived influence will never match up.

It's just a very different game now, so we almost need a cut-off period so we're comparing apples with apples. Buddy has been literally a once-in-a generation player in that regard, when we used to have multiple-in-a-generation.

Nick Daicos might actually turn out to have greater footballing attributes as a player than Peter Daicos, but there's just no way the modern game will allow him to have a bigger individual influence on footy matches than Peter did.

 

[Fadge]

Selwood is nowhere near the top 10. He's been a great player and an fantastic leader of the Cats over a sustained period of time, but as an individual controlling the outcome of games just not comparable to the rest of your list. I was using the Top 10 of current players to provide a snapshot of how the game has changed from an individualist/collectivist point of view.

We need to take into account when compiling a long-term list that the game has changed significantly over the past 20 or so years. It does not have that individualist element it once had, and is based more around the collaboration of a forward/midfield/backline group, and even the synergy between these lines is critical nowadays. The days of the Tigers having to try 5 different guys (one at a time, mind you ) on GAS because he'd already notched up 8 goals by half time are long gone. A defender back then could have as many individual wins on an opponent as he lost and still have 12 goals kicked on him.

Modern KPF's just cannot compete statistically with KPF's of yesteryear. Buddy, and to a lesser extent JReiwoldt and Hawkins, are not afforded the wealth of opportunities to compete one-on-one that Dunstall, Lockett, GAS, Carey etc were afforded, so their numbers and perceived influence will never match up.

It's just a very different game now, so we almost need a cut-off period so we're comparing apples with apples. Buddy has been literally a once-in-a generation player in that regard, when we used to have multiple-in-a-generation.

Nick Daicos might actually turn out to have greater footballing attributes as a player than Peter Daicos, but there's just no way the modern game will allow him to have a bigger individual influence on footy matches than Peter did.

These are fair points but.....

I'm not sure how many Geelong games you have watched over Selwood's career, but I watch a lot of footy nowadays and reckon I've seen about three quarters of all of Selwood's games - this is possibly a result of the fact Geelong have been perennial contenders throughout his entire career, and also Collingwood have also been contending for much of that time. I have no doubt in my mind that he had the ability to will his team over the line in a way that no other midfielder has apart from Voss in my lifetime - you only need to go back to his final game, the 2022 Grand Final, for an example - Selwood and Hawkins were without doubt the best and most influential players on the ground up to half time, and the game was done and dusted.

 

[PhatBoy]

Pretty strange take. You said you prioritise influence on games, well guess what that’s how awards are voted buddy. Why then have you included Selwood who’s not decorated enough to be included in the top 10. Not to mention the orders are totally wrong, GAJ should be number 1, more decorated = more influential.


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You need to let go of the importance you attach to medals and awards.

 

[Catsnlakers]

You need to let go of the importance you attach to medals and awards.

Precisely, if anyone had any doubts on not putting so much weight into medals it was 1989, because even though Paul Couch had just won the Brownlow medal there wasn’t one supporter of ours who had him as our best player, nor was he the guy on the front page with it saying something like “All that stands between Hawthorn & immortality”…

 

[PhatBoy]

AFL’s closest comparison is rugby league as they’re both predominantly Australian games, have a reasonably similar amount of players on the field, all players need to attack and defend, and while there are players with designated roles they aren’t like a quarterback who pretty much control their team’s fortunes and will almost invariably be best on the field.

I can appreciate Dally M awards or Rothman’s Medals or the POTS awards for origin etc but when assessing a career I look at origin caps and test caps as being a big factor in where I rate players in the same way as I would AA guernseys - and yes they shoehorn players into origin sides out of position and they DO play games not just a ceremonial side.

The Dally M team of the year holds a bit of weight.

I look at Brad Clyde who won 2 Clive Churchill medals (norm smith’s) one of them in a losing side and again it’s nice and he WAS a legend but he was as much of a legend for being a star in a team of stars at Canberra and playing 20 or so origins

Guys like Petero Civoniceva who play prop - they are very rarely going to be MoTM or win a player of the year award so seeing his 36 origins or something - that to me tells me how good he was and I rate him up there among the best players I’ve seen