The most important metric when judging a player's career ?

[RUNVS]

I think what you are trying to say is ‘multiple AAs’ are a better way of judging how good a player is right? Imo a Brownlow is worth 3/4 AAs. That’s the sort of ratio it is when you look at Brownlow medal winners.


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Genuine question. Who was better in 2008? Lance Franklin or Adam Cooney?

 

[Falcon3518]

Great thread. Interesting thread.

For me, the single most important metric is simple - it is a player's ability to influence a game of football. That is - to what extent they influence a game, and how regularly they do it.

In me 40 odd years of watching football, there are two players who stand head and shoulders above the rest - Gary Ablett Senior and Wayne Carey, with Lockett on the next rung. I reckon Lockett's only on the next rung though because he played a lot of his career with St. Kilda, who didn't win many big games with him. But when you're kicking 10 of your team's 12 goals, you're clearly having a material impact on a game of football. I only caught the very final years of Leigh Matthews' career, so can't objectively assess him (though from what I've read he would most likely be up there with GAS and Carey).

These players did it with sheer brilliance and dominance, but there are other players such as Michael Voss and Joel Selwood who regularly walked onto the field whether it be half time or three quarter time, and played like they had said to their teammates 'Come with me boys, there is no way we are going to lose this game'. Leadership a critical element of this perception.

To that end, the top 10 players I have seen in my lifetime who have had the ability to materially influence a game of football, and do it regularly, are:
1. Gary Ablett Senior
2. Wayne Carey
3. Tony Lockett
4. Chris Judd
5. Lance Franklin
6. Gary Ablett Junior
7. Greg Williams
8. Michael Voss
9. Jason Dunstall
10. Joel Selwood

Pretty strange take. You said you prioritise influence on games, well guess what that’s how awards are voted buddy. Why then have you included Selwood who’s not decorated enough to be included in the top 10. Not to mention the orders are totally wrong, GAJ should be number 1, more decorated = more influential.


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[CaptchaProofBot]

Definitely AFLCA for me because no one knows (inside knowledge) about the game more than the actual coach...(even if someone replies with Mark Neeld says hello)

Other awards ? well they could be judged by "celebs" for all we know...why I stumbled across this term the other day describing Damo...."star journalist"...SNORT

 

[Fadge]

So defenders or ruckman don’t influence football games?

They do. But I don't rate any to the same extent and with the same frequency as the 10 I listed. Who would you replace in the 10 I listed, and with which defender or ruckman?

 

[Falcon3518]

Genuine question. Who was better in 2008? Lance Franklin or Adam Cooney?

Franklin. He won the Coleman which is the forward equivalent of the Brownlow.


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[RUNVS]

Definitely AFLCA for me because no one knows (inside knowledge) about the game more than the actual coach...(even if someone replies with Mark Neeld says hello)

Admittedly the AFLCA Players award has only been around since 2003 but do you know in that time how many non-midfielders have won the award? I will give you a hint, it is none. Closest you can get is Bont in 2017 but even then he only kicked 20 goals in 22 games that year so he definitely was not playing as a forward.

 

[Fadge]

Pretty strange take. You said you prioritise influence on games, well guess what that’s how awards are voted buddy. Why then have you included Selwood who’s not decorated enough to be included in the top 10. Not to mention the orders are totally wrong, GAJ should be number 1, more decorated = more influential.

Oh my.

 

[Falcon3518]

Oh my.

Explain it then because you are always all over the shop with your opinions. Consistently contradicting yourself and backtracking.


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[Trav 20]

You are saying that AAs are more valuable than Brownlows. Meaning if you have the same number of each you’d take the AAs. Ian Stewart legend in Hall of Fame as 3 Brownlows and only 1 AA.


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You have to completely disregard All Australians before 1991 as a metric of performance.

 

[Fadge]

Explain it then because you are always all over the shop with your opinions. Consistently contradicting yourself and backtracking.

The explanation is clear in my post, or at least it is for a rational thinking person.

 

[Trav 20]

Admittedly the AFLCA Players award has only been around since 2003 but do you know in that time how many non-midfielders have won the award? I will give you a hint, it is none. Closest you can get is Bont in 2017 but even then he only kicked 20 goals in 22 games that year so he definitely was not playing as a forward.

Gawn won it.

 

[Falcon3518]

For those that argue between MVP, Coaches award and Brownlow.

What I find helps is using all 3 and the Coleman to determine the actual best player of the season (assuming everybody got an AA)

Eg 2008

Brownlow Cooney

MVP GAJ

Coaches Award GAJ

Coleman Buddy

Best player of 2008 is GAJ. Won 2/4



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[Cuzz09]

Most premierships/kms travelled surely



Assuming it's an Eagle but it's probably Goodes which is a fair result

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[RUNVS]

Gawn won it.

Yes I missed that, but still, 1 player in 20 years is basically a sign the AFLCA is no better than the Brownlow. Admittedly the AFLCA seems to have fewer howlers compared to the Brownlow but they basically ignore anyone who isn't a midfielder.

 

[RUNVS]

Most premierships/kms travelled surely



Assuming it's an Eagle but it's probably Goodes which is a fair result

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Need to take into account wearing red too, as everyone knows players in red are better than the ones who are not in red.

 

[Falcon3518]

You have to completely disregard All Australians before 1991 as a metric of performance.

They had carnivals or whatever. I take it with a grain of salt when comparing from older eras, sure. But you also got to take into account they were not professional either with less teams. Would Ian Stewart have won 3 Brownlows in the AFL era? Sorry no way, he isn’t as good as 3 Brownlows today suggests.


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[Falcon3518]

The explanation is clear in my post, or at least it is for a rational thinking person.

Selwood top 10 is not rational. That is a Fact.


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[DQ 4EVER]

Least important metric when judging the merits of a player would have to be premierships IMO.

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[RUNVS]

Least important metric when judging the merits of a player would have to be premierships IMO.

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Very much so. A premiership is often down to luck, either being drafted by the right team or in more recent times trading yourself to a better team. So many amazing players throughout history have won no premierships and that does not take at all away from how good they were as players, just like a premiership does not make another player better. Plenty of pretty bog standard or below average players have premierships as all premiership teams have below average players in them.

 

[Cuzz09]

Need to take into account wearing red too, as everyone knows players in red are better than the ones who are not in red.

faster too

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[RUNVS]

You have to completely disregard All Australians before 1991 as a metric of performance.

True, but post 2000 it is comfortably the best metric.

 

[CaptchaProofBot]

Admittedly the AFLCA Players award has only been around since 2003 but do you know in that time how many non-midfielders have won the award? I will give you a hint, it is none. Closest you can get is Bont in 2017 but even then he only kicked 20 goals in 22 games that year so he definitely was not playing as a forward.

well so be it...coz who is a better judge of the game than the coaches who just coached the game ? A-list celebs ? armchair critics ? journos ?...mmm maybe the players themselves but then, they could be thick as thieves...

 

[RUNVS]

well so be it...coz who is a better judge of the game than the coaches who just coached the game ? A-list celebs ? armchair critics ? journos ?...mmm maybe the players themselves but then, they could be thick as thieves...

An award that so heavily favours midfielders can't be taken into consideration when judging who are the best players.

 

[Blackas87]

Franklin. He won the Coleman which is the forward equivalent of the Brownlow.


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Who’s career ranks higher?

Matthew Richardson, 3 all Australians, 0 Brownlows, 0 Coleman medals

Or

Shane Woewoedin, 0 All Australians, 1 Brownlow

 

[RUNVS]

Franklin. He won the Coleman which is the forward equivalent of the Brownlow.


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I think it is a pretty simplistic view to say the forward that kicked the most goals that year was the best. I mean often it is true but not always. Plus where are the specific awards for the ruckmen, or the key defender? What about the small defender, or small forward? Do we need individual awards for every position?

Also I think we can all agree that Buddy was better than Cooney in 2008, which means the entire point of the Brownlow is suddenly gone if they are selecting players who clearly were not the best in said year.