Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

[Carringbush2010]

They call themselves 'communists'.... while charging their citizens for education and healthcare.
I'd say in practice they're a typical authoritarian dictatorship who rule/s**t over the majority to benefit a small ruling elite. Xi, like most dictators, is a cold blooded psychopath.

Xi misusing the communist societal model.

 

[Mofra]

Xi misusing the communist societal model.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
China has a strong 1% billionaire class that continue to go on their merry ways as long as they don't criticise the party/'Dear Leader'.

For all of the faults of many Democratic models, it is still a million times better than the alternatives as a system of government.

 

[Green Hammer]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
China has a strong 1% billionaire class that continue to go on their merry ways as long as they don't criticise the party/'Dear Leader'.

For all of the faults of many Democratic models, it is still a million times better than the alternatives as a system of government.

Only if the right people are voted in

 

[Carringbush2010]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
China has a strong 1% billionaire class that continue to go on their merry ways as long as they don't criticise the party/'Dear Leader'.

For all of the faults of many Democratic models, it is still a million times better than the alternatives as a system of government.

So I guess when the sh*t hits the fan everyone wants to be democratic.

 

[Gethelred]

So I guess when the sh*t hits the fan everyone wants to be democratic.

Except the capitalists, who spend most of their time doing their utmost to subvert democracy.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Except for the ahole humans who misuse capitalism, who spend most of their time doing their utmost to subvert democracy.

More accurate description IMO.

I could name a many who also misuse any societal model anyone can think of for ill to others for their own gain.

Societal models are not the problem, people (some) are.

I will concede, this kind of scum is an unwanted consequence of liberalism - if we're talking about capitalism.

 

[Gethelred]

More accurate description IMO.

I could name a many who also misuse any societal model anyone can think of for ill to others for their own gain.

Societal models are not the problem, people (some) are.

I will concede, this kind of scum is an unwanted consequence of liberalism - if we're talking about capitalism.

"Always the apples, never the barrel."

 

[Gralin]

More accurate description IMO.

I could name a many who also misuse any societal model anyone can think of for ill to others for their own gain.

Societal models are not the problem, people (some) are.

I will concede, this kind of scum is an unwanted consequence of liberalism - if we're talking about capitalism.

Capitalism was built to do exactly what it is doing.

 

[Green Hammer]

Capitalism was built to do exactly what it is doing.

Kill crush destroy

 

[Carringbush2010]

"Always the apples, never the barrel."

'Never the humans fault'

 

[rank and file]

FFS,
Four legs good,two legs bad and work sets you free.

 

[Gethelred]

'Never the humans fault'

That's your problem, CB: it's never the system, where in my world view there are plenty of individuals who've made the problem worse.

For you, the possibility of the whole barrel being bad - the possibility that there's anything systemic going on - simply isn't possible. At every single possible recourse on this forum, you reduce the problem down to a few bad eggs, no matter how demonstrable the patterns of behaviour produced.

In another era, you'd have defended slavery on the basis that it's only a few bad slave owners who mistreat their slaves.

Personal accountability and/or individualism cannot account for differences in class, race, gender or power over time. You really need to drop the Rand from your ideology; but then, the last time I told you where your ideas came from you cracked it at me. I hardly expect this to go any better.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That's your problem, CB: it's never the system, where in my world view there are plenty of individuals who've made the problem worse.

And you're always the opposite, the system is always the problem, individuals who've made the problem worse. 'the system made me do it'

It'd be naive to believe that there'd never be bad individuals who take advantage at the detriment of others, there is no system that can combat that. They've existed since the dawn of time and will exist forever more.

This is seemingly what you can't accept but you always blame the system, or more accurately liberal democracy.

Ok, you have that, that is your choice, personally I like our liberal democracy.

Not sure what you're after to appease you and finally rid your world of the bad eggs, there is no system that can combat that.

Anyways, where getting off thread Gethy. I'll leave it there, if you want to continue your vent, pm me.
,

 

[Gethelred]

And you're always the opposite, the system is always the problem, individuals who've made the problem worse. 'the system made me do it'

You're clearly not reading the posts you're responding to. It's deeply disingenuous.

It'd be naive to believe that there'd never be bad individuals who take advantage at the detriment of others, there is no system that can combat that. They've existed since the dawn of time and will exist forever more.

Sure. Quote where I've said individuals are never at fault, CB. Ever. On this forum. Put your money where your mouth is.

If you want to beat up strawmen, do it some other time.

Anyways, where getting off thread Gethy. I'll leave it there, if you want to continue your vent, pm me.

It's deeply amusing that you want out of this conversation.

You want to run, feel free. It's what you always do; take your bat and ball and go home, either pretending to be above it (as you're doing here) or stomping off in a huff.

 

[Gralin]

Didn't have this on my 2023 bingo

 

[Gough]

Didn't have this on my 2023 bingo

Give the guy a break, he was only twenty one and didn't know Nazis were bad.

 

[Gralin]

Give the guy a break, he was only twenty one and didn't know Nazis were bad.

Trailblazer for young Harry

 

[Gralin]

Speaking of capitalism and Nazi's


Nazi who has been in jail before bashing someone = no jail and the judge saying it wasn't racially motivated even though he called the guy a monkey before hitting him.

Woman who is not a Nazi blocks one lane of a road for 25 minutes = 15 months in jail and the judge being really angry about her conduct...

 

[Gralin]

But yeah fascism isn't incompatible with capitalism but action on the climate emergency is.

 

[owen87]

But yeah fascism isn't incompatible with capitalism but action on the climate emergency is.

Easy to work out; climate emergency doesn't make money, facism is what the wealthy wish they could have more of - assuming they're the ones in control.

 

[Gralin]

Easy to work out; climate emergency doesn't make money, facism is what the wealthy wish they could have more of - assuming they're the ones in control.

 

[Paul Kersey]

Saw a car this morning with a sticker of that frog meme on the back and ‘rob-888’ plates. Nah not a lucky number for a Chinese car (assuming ‘rob-88’ was already taken). And yes it was a Volkswagon.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

People that follow Nazism are downright deplorable and should be ostracised as much as possible, but I'd always caution against violence unless you're comfortable with what's coming back at you.

That's your problem, CB: it's never the system, where in my world view there are plenty of individuals who've made the problem worse.

For you, the possibility of the whole barrel being bad - the possibility that there's anything systemic going on - simply isn't possible. At every single possible recourse on this forum, you reduce the problem down to a few bad eggs, no matter how demonstrable the patterns of behaviour produced.

In another era, you'd have defended slavery on the basis that it's only a few bad slave owners who mistreat their slaves.

Personal accountability and/or individualism cannot account for differences in class, race, gender or power over time. You really need to drop the Rand from your ideology; but then, the last time I told you where your ideas came from you cracked it at me. I hardly expect this to go any better.

Ref the above, I honestly can't think of any system of governance/societal model which doesn't result in one group exploiting others and/or significant inequality at some level. Whether it's capitalism, socialism, feudalism or some form of autocratic rule (e.g. a monarchy); the end result always seems to be the same. Infact the only times when I can't think of this occurring is in extremely small societies (200 people and under). I definitely haven't seen a system properly work with good outcomes for all in any modern/large society (happy to he corrected though).

I'm definitely not jumping in to defend capitalism. I actually think that unchecked neoliberalist capitalism encourages/rewards exploitation, but I think CB makes a fair point that no matter the system; people will still be a-holes.

Also the bolded is a pretty stiff accusation and I'm confident in saying you wouldn't appreciate it if it was sent in your direction. It's essentially slander unless there are quotes to back it up. Just my take.

 

[Gethelred]

People that follow Nazism are downright deplorable and should be ostracised as much as possible, but I'd always caution against violence unless you're comfortable with what's coming back at you.

Out of interest, how much of this thread have you followed?

I've put forth my reasoning before multiple times, here, here but mainly here.

Ref the above, I honestly can't think of any system of governance/societal model which doesn't result in one group exploiting others and/or significant inequality at some level. Whether it's capitalism, socialism, feudalism or some form of autocratic rule (e.g. a monarchy); the end result always seems to be the same. Infact the only times when I can't think of this occurring is in extremely small societies (200 people and under). I definitely haven't seen a system properly work with good outcomes for all in any modern/large society (happy to he corrected though).

That's not really the point of being willing to be violent towards nazism, though.

I'm definitely not jumping in to defend capitalism. I actually think that unchecked neoliberalist capitalism encourages/rewards exploitation, but I think CB makes a fair point that no matter the system; people will still be a-holes.

Also the bolded is a pretty stiff accusation and I'm confident in saying you wouldn't appreciate it if it was sent in your direction. It's essentially slander unless there are quotes to back it up. Just my take.

It's a reflection of the reasoning Carringbush2010 (only tagging you because it's cowardice to talk about someone without them knowing, CB) uses; it's never the system, always the individual. If you searched my username and the phrase "Always the apples. Never the barrel" you'd find me quoting them with this whenever I see that particular piece of reasoning in their posts.

The reason it's worth pointing it out is because it's flawed, and stating that they'd have defended slavery with precisely the same reasoning without any change is how that flaw is exposed: treating systems as though they don't exist and arseholes as though they're inevitable does not lead to good (or at least better) outcomes.

Now, I've had this conversation a fair bit with them. I've tried - over and over - to make them understand that the reasoning they're using is flawed and I've been confronted with an inability to go any further than the fact that arseholes exist. When you are confronted by someone completely unwilling to move, you continue to try to move them.

It's also why wading into conversations that you haven't followed is somewhat tricky. You don't know what's been said, how interactions have been handled, where the history is.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Out of interest, how much of this thread have you followed?

I've put forth my reasoning before multiple times, here, here but mainly here.

This bit you're quoting isn't directed at you. It's moreso just a general comment on the premise of the OP (physical violence against Nazis). Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's not really the point of being willing to be violent towards nazism, though.

I'll be honest I'm unsure of what point you're trying to convey here? I'm just echoing the sentiment that human beings (as a collective) are fundamentally flawed, and that there will always be a group that tries to exploit no matter what system you implement; history has shown this.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to improve society or give neoliberalist capitalism its fair critique. Moreso that its something that needs to be acknowledged. Solely blaming the "barrel" isn't really a fair analysis nor will it lead to optimal outcomes.

It's a reflection of the reasoning Carringbush2010 (only tagging you because it's cowardice to talk about someone without them knowing, CB) uses; it's never the system, always the individual. If you searched my username and the phrase "Always the apples. Never the barrel" you'd find me quoting them with this whenever I see that particular piece of reasoning in their posts.

The reason it's worth pointing it out is because it's flawed, and stating that they'd have defended slavery with precisely the same reasoning without any change is how that flaw is exposed: treating systems as though they don't exist and arseholes as though they're inevitable does not lead to good (or at least better) outcomes.

Now, I've had this conversation a fair bit with them. I've tried - over and over - to make them understand that the reasoning they're using is flawed and I've been confronted with an inability to go any further than the fact that arseholes exist. When you are confronted by someone completely unwilling to move, you continue to try to move them.

It's also why wading into conversations that you haven't followed is somewhat tricky. You don't know what's been said, how interactions have been handled, where the history is.

I understand your historical grievances with CB, but as far as I'm concerned I take each individual discussion and the merit of the arguments within on a case by case basis. An argument that might not be reasonable in one discussion could be perfectly logical in another.

All that said I still wouldn't be making derogatory accusations like saying someone would defend slavery, but I suppose that is your prerogative. You do you.