Past #26: Tarryn Thomas [Part II] - will honor his contract and play on at NMFC in 2024, so says the reality TV manager

[ferball]

BTW as a complete aside for those that post in the MB JHF thread. Tom Lych was booed by Port throughout the 2020 PF and even had a drink thrown over him by a Port supporter at the end. Yet his response to that was to make light of it and not carry on.

Youse might want to point that out iof you can be bothered.

 

[Roosurgence]

Was i talking to you then?

The last thing i said in response to you was this:

Okay fair enough. (About you not booing him and I haven't said a word to you about it since.)

But about the AotY thing.

He would have had those criticisms anyway. Even without the award.

He would have felt that way and expressed himself when he had the opportunity.

But if you give him the AotY then expect him to shut up because of it then all you're doing is using that award to silence him.

Is that really what you want it to be used for?



I notice you ignored the rest of the comment tho. Are you not capable of a reasoned answer?

Frankly I’m over the whole conversation, I think it’s been done to death and I don’t see the need to rehash it, that’s why I said let’s agree to disagree.

BTW I have no issue with Adam Goodes calling out racism at his awards speech, and I think the issue should have been called out. I just didn’t agree with the lengths he went to what in my mind was painting a whole nation of people as being racist.

As a country Australia is not perfect and there will always be pockets of idiots, but let’s not tar everyone with the same brush because of the actions of a few.

 

[JGreezy]

I think that Thomas is going to be brilliant off half back. He has always been such a beautiful field kick and probably has some defensive potential. He will be a huge addition to the side.

 

[Mav]

Goodes is a nob.

Thomas is a nob.

I'll put up with the booing if Thomas becomes a 2 time premiership player for us.

 

[The Nostradamus]

tarryn will be that burgoyne player for clarko , plays off hbf but has stints in the middle to turn momentum

 

[blackshadow]

I

I was a member of the third, I hated goodes as much as I hate essendon and couldn’t stand him sulking for frees and doing cheap shots behind the ball. Add in that he was an umpires pet and shouldn’t have won either brownlows and he deserved every boo he got

I was an early Goodes booer for the reasons bolded above but once the racist card was played re the booing I stopped booing him.

I would have loved to have him playing for North - very talented player but a sniper and a stager but it worked for him and the COLAs.

 

[The Filth Wizard]

Time to steer this thread back towards Thomas.

 

[nelroo]

Thomas and Sheez roating between half back and half forward

 

[Mav]

Time to steer this thread back towards Thomas.

 

[King Corey]

Time to steer this thread back towards Thomas Edison.

FIFY.

 

[tazaa]

This...

Swallow decision correct

We’re more than content that it was a correct free kick.”

www.nmfc.com.au

Clearly, Umpire Ray Chamberlain would have paid the free kick to Swallow, and possibly at least one 50m penalty.

He was in a head lock before he picked the ball up. There was no prior. This is the type of favoritism to a champion that annoyed me.

Again Goodes got plenty of these calls throughout his career but it made no sense when was blatantly booed for it without context.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

He was in a head lock before he picked the ball up. There was no prior. This is the type of favoritism to a champion that annoyed me.

Again Goodes got plenty of these calls throughout his career but it made no sense when was blatantly booed for it without context.

I couldn't find other footage but we (family) were completely disgusted by the call going against Swallow.

There was another in our back pocket where (if my memory is correct) our player ran the ball out in the manner you would see a dozen times in any game, and Goodes laid a late tackle, basically rag dolling the North player outside the boundary line then appealed and gained a free kick.

I respect his ability, especially earlier in his career but by the end he was as bad as Dangerfield is now, claiming free kicks at the drop of a hat. Of course, it is the umpires who paid the frees who ought to be booed.

But doing that is only effective if you are a supporter of a big club or an interstate club where the umpires response will be to pay a few frees to stop the tirade against them.

 

[czero]

He didn't play the race card. He was literally racially abused playing a game and pointed out the perpetrator.

For some reason that enraged people.

If I recall the boos didn't really take hold until he did some kind of war dance and threw a spear into the Carlton cheer squad near the end of the game to put them 40 points up. Could be wrong, but I don't really recall hearing any significant boo's in games until then.

 

[DocSholl]

If I recall the boos didn't really take hold until he did some kind of war dance and threw a spear into the Carlton cheer squad near the end of the game to put them 40 points up. Could be wrong, but I don't really recall hearing any significant boo's in games until then.

This was a convenient narrative created by people who didn't want to accept the booing was, at least in part, racially motivated. Convenient as it put the blame back on Goodes and ignored the uncomfortable truth that people didn't respond well to an indigenous person speaking out of turn.

His AOTY speech and the Pies/Swans incident were the two biggest factors in the booing escalating. The war dance was his response to that.

 

[czero]

This was a convenient narrative created by people who didn't want to accept the booing was, at least in part, racially motivated. Convenient as it put the blame back on Goodes and ignored the uncomfortable truth that people didn't respond well to an indigenous person speaking out of turn.

His AOTY speech and the Pies/Swans incident were the two biggest factors in the booing escalating. The war dance was his response to that.

I'm not driving a narrative, and I didnt create anything.

I just remember that happening on TV and then audible boos every single game until he retired. Before that I never noticed it. Admittedly it don't think I ever saw a live game of his between 2013 (when he pointed out that girl) and 2015 (when he did the spear thing), so I might be incorrectly assuming that the boos were not as bad for those years.

I'll have to go back to the archive for 2014 and see if I can skim a few games.

 

[ferball]

It wasn't just a spear. He also threw hand grenades and a bucket of skunk poo.

 

[Kimbo]

I have no issue with him acknowledging what happened in the past, I have issue with him putting blame on current day Australians for something that happened before their time.

Tell me why it’s so important for current day Australians to say sorry? So not saying sorry for something you never did is being racist?

Continually dredging up the past and attributing blame to people based on their heritage and not their actual actions, doesn’t do anyone any good.

Is there a timeframe on this or do people like Adam Goodes have the right to keep labelling Australians as being racist for the sins of the past?

This is a ridiculous argument. The fact that in this day and age anyone can be labelled a racist just because of their heritage shows how out of touch certain people are with this issue.

I have no issue with Adam Goodes calling out racism at his awards speech, and I think the issue should have been called out. I just didn’t agree with the lengths he went to what in my mind was painting a whole nation of people as being racist.

As a country Australia is not perfect and there will always be pockets of idiots, but let’s not tar everyone with the same brush because of the actions of a few.

I've seen many discussions about racism on BigFooty over the years and, while I hate 'thread derailments', unless you create a separate thread to discuss it specifically, it usually arises in a context. Sorry The Filth Wizard. In this case, the question of whether TT will be booed, then the link to Goodes and booing.

On the booing stuff... while I'm not a fan of booing, unless it's generally good-natured, if I was in attendance this weekend, I'd be sorely tempted to do so whenever JHF touches the ball. The perfect solution, of course, would be to deny someone like me that opportunity, by stopping him from touching the ball. If I did, however, I'd probably be in the 'herd mentality' category I suspect. Or being a Kangaroo supporter, the mob mentality. Sigh... I wouldn't do it.

On the racism stuff... I'm using your comments, Roosurgence, as a springboard to comment as I think they represent a prevalent perspective which I think fails to adequately understand racism. It's not my intention to 'argue'. I get that you are well intentioned and I'm not calling you a racist. I get that you're largely wanting to defend people who haven't had a personal role in historical atrocities. Although I did have an Aboriginal partner, who did suggest once upon a time, that I might be (unintentionally) racist which was incredibly challenging to my well intentioned soul ego. It was a wake up call and ever since I've felt obliged to 'pay it forward'.

My perspective, by the way, comes primarily from this ex-partner - whose father was Murri and mother a white 'Anglo' Aussie - who was incredibly good at 'code switching' (between cultures) and at educating white fellas, like me, about subjects as sensitive as racism. I also worked at the Native Title Tribunal and conducted a review of their mediation practices, I worked at an Aboriginal NGO, and in these roles and in a consulting role, I have worked with many Aboriginal people as managers, colleagues and clients, and also from having an Aboriginal sister and brother... from another mother. With sanction and support from Aboriginal Elders, I've had the good fortune to facilitate Talking Circles with significant/predominantly Indigenous work groups and, in this environment, to hear some profound and moving 'truth telling' which will make you cry one minute, and laugh the next. (Most Aboriginal people I've met, are good at shifting between 'taking it seriously' and 'taking the piss' - being able to laugh loudly and often, including at themselves.) I've been taught by, challenged by and supported by Aboriginal people. Some have been bitter, but most have been very generous in spirit towards me as 'a new (4th or 5th generation) Australian'. None of this makes me an 'expert' nor a spokesperson, but I hope it has given me some useful insights that many don't have the opportunity to experience, which I'd like to share with the goal of bridging the divide.

The main points I'd make are:

1. The way the word 'racism' gets used isn't necessarily the same.

My experience is that when Aboriginal people refer to something being racist, they are referring to experiences or events that can range from; the extremes of genocide; to deliberate, race-based persecution or abuse; to unconscious systemic discrimination; to name-calling; to personal comments that are demeaning or hurtful, all based on a failure to fully understand, appreciate and respect their personal, historical or cultural perspective, story and values (or even existence). In my experience Aboriginal people tend to use the term racism more broadly than a narrow focus and definition of conscious, intentional prejudice or persecution based on a view that someone is inferior, based on their race, which I think is how most non-Indigenous people define racism. Hence, racism becomes a very loaded term, but it can help to accept one's part, individually, culturally and even historically, if one recognises the broader meaning it holds for Indigenous Australians. I also think it allows room to accept that one might be 'innocent' but also racist or at least part of a racist system or country, if that makes sense?

2. Racism, as much as it may confuse, bother or upset others, is defined by the victim - or, if you prefer, the person experiencing it.

While I think it was clumsy, I think it was what Peter Jess was trying to say, when referring to 'perpetrators'. I think he meant those who perpetrate an action of some kind, even unintentionally, versus the legal connotations of the word. That is, a perpretrator isn't an (alleged) criminal in this context, merely not the victim or offended. It's the same with sexism. The implication is that, at the very least, when someone says they've experienced racism, this needs to be respectfully listened to, with an attempt to understand why, even if intention was different to what was experienced. Kennett's jeans comment to Cyril's partner is a good example. While he may have intended it in the way of an uncle gently ribbing someone, if he fails to see how it can be taken very differently by an Aboriginal person, or fail to listen when it gets pointed out, then he's compounding the initial offence, however unintentional that may have been. I have had, by the way, situations when things I've said or done were construed as racist and took the opportunity to explore perspectives, with good will emerging on the other side.

3. There is a collective responsibility (and opportunity).

I believe it's the same at a national level, with respect to Indigenous experiences and stories. If, when stories of racism are told on the national stage, and if these stories are ignored or downplayed, it amounts to a denial of their existence and/or of their significance, then it adds a (racist) insult to a (racist) injury, if that makes sense. It can range from how we portray the history of our a country - for example, dismissing the frontier wars as a (politically motivated minority) "black arm band version of history" - to allowing name calling (or booing, if it is experienced as racism) at an AFL match to go unchecked.

With respect to calling Australia 'racist', to my mind, we have to ask 'what is a country?' I'd argue that a country is its history and its culture, amongst other things. A culture is made up of a myriad of things, but is contained in symbols, stories and sense of identity. It's not about every single person. Whatever you think Australia "is", I'm sure it won't hold true for 100% of people. But we might, willingly or not, ascribe to the general sense of it, and it changes over time as experiences and narratives evolve. What I like about the Aboriginal story in recent years, is that we are, I think, finally coming to recognise and embrace Aboriginal history culture and stories as part of what it means to be Australian, for good and for bad, and we can't accept the good without accepting the bad. Ironically, this is all back to front to me. Aboriginal people were forced to accept newcomers and usurpers to their traditional lands, and to accept an invisible or inferior place in the minds of those newcomers. (Terra nullius.) I call it the Anglo-centric view of the world. The increased prevalence of welcomes to country, and the education surrounding them, and conversations these spawn, is an example of how we are evolving our knowledge and sense of who we are.

So what?

When racism, as interpreted and experienced by an Aboriginal person is pointed out, it is so often met with confusion, surprise, indignation and/or defensiveness instead of "Okay, so please let me understand why you experience it this way?", even if the 'perpetrator' doesn't see it this way, or didn't intend it. I don't think this happens, however, as, for the most part, no-one likes having their actions being referred to as racist, and by implication, that they themselves are seen as such. It can happen at an individual level, and at a societal level. We don't want to be seen as racist, individually or as a nation. Yet, from the micro (my ex-partner being called a 'black c**t' for having the temerity to walk down a public street past a construction site) to the macro (certain reactions to The Voice, land rights and sovereignty or any other relevant national policy issue), examples abound of stories of racism. We may not like it, but until we acknowledge that racism is, and continues in many ways, to be part of what Australia is, as experienced by it's Indigenous people, it can't move on, heal and fully celebrate the wonderful contribution of Aboriginal history, culture and identity has, and can have, in the life of our nation

/speech

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Time to steer this thread back towards Thomas.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

I've seen many discussions about racism on BigFooty over the years and, while I hate 'thread derailments', unless you create a separate thread to discuss it specifically, it usually arises in a context. Sorry The Filth Wizard. In this case, the question of whether TT will be booed, then the link to Goodes and booing.

On the booing stuff... while I'm not a fan of booing, unless it's generally good-natured, if I was in attendance this weekend, I'd be sorely tempted to do so whenever JHF touches the ball. The perfect solution, of course, would be to deny someone like me that opportunity, by stopping him from touching the ball. If I did, however, I'd probably be in the 'herd mentality' category I suspect. Or being a Kangaroo supporter, the mob mentality. Sigh... I wouldn't do it.

On the racism stuff... I'm using your comments, Roosurgence, as a springboard to comment as I think they represent a prevalent perspective which I think fails to adequately understand racism. It's not my intention to 'argue'. I get that you are well intentioned and I'm not calling you a racist. I get that you're largely wanting to defend people who haven't had a personal role in historical atrocities. Although I did have an Aboriginal partner, who did suggest once upon a time, that I might be (unintentionally) racist which was incredibly challenging to my well intentioned soul ego. It was a wake up call and ever since I've felt obliged to 'pay it forward'.

My perspective, by the way, comes primarily from this ex-partner - whose father was Murri and mother a white 'Anglo' Aussie - who was incredibly good at 'code switching' (between cultures) and at educating white fellas, like me, about subjects as sensitive as racism. I also worked at the Native Title Tribunal and conducted a review of their mediation practices, I worked at an Aboriginal NGO, and in these roles and in a consulting role, I have worked with many Aboriginal people as managers, colleagues and clients, and also from having an Aboriginal sister and brother... from another mother. With sanction and support from Aboriginal Elders, I've had the good fortune to facilitate Talking Circles with significant/predominantly Indigenous work groups and, in this environment, to hear some profound and moving 'truth telling' which will make you cry one minute, and laugh the next. (Most Aboriginal people I've met, are good at shifting between 'taking it seriously' and 'taking the piss' - being able to laugh loudly and often, including at themselves.) I've been taught by, challenged by and supported by Aboriginal people. Some have been bitter, but most have been very generous in spirit towards me as 'a new (4th or 5th generation) Australian'. None of this makes me an 'expert' nor a spokesperson, but I hope it has given me some useful insights that many don't have the opportunity to experience, which I'd like to share with the goal of bridging the divide.

The main points I'd make are:

1. The way the word 'racism' gets used isn't necessarily the same.

My experience is that when Aboriginal people refer to something being racist, they are referring to experiences or events that can range from; the extremes of genocide; to deliberate, race-based persecution or abuse; to unconscious systemic discrimination; to name-calling; to personal comments that are demeaning or hurtful, all based on a failure to fully understand, appreciate and respect their personal, historical or cultural perspective, story and values (or even existence). In my experience Aboriginal people tend to use the term racism more broadly than a narrow focus and definition of conscious, intentional prejudice or persecution based on a view that someone is inferior, based on their race, which I think is how most non-Indigenous people define racism. Hence, racism becomes a very loaded term, but it can help to accept one's part, individually, culturally and even historically, if one recognises the broader meaning it holds for Indigenous Australians. I also think it allows room to accept that one might be 'innocent' but also racist or at least part of a racist system or country, if that makes sense?

2. Racism, as much as it may confuse, bother or upset others, is defined by the victim - or, if you prefer, the person experiencing it.

While I think it was clumsy, I think it was what Peter Jess was trying to say, when referring to 'perpetrators'. I think he meant those who perpetrate an action of some kind, even unintentionally, versus the legal connotations of the word. That is, a perpretrator isn't an (alleged) criminal in this context, merely not the victim or offended. It's the same with sexism. The implication is that, at the very least, when someone says they've experienced racism, this needs to be respectfully listened to, with an attempt to understand why, even if intention was different to what was experienced. Kennett's jeans comment to Cyril's partner is a good example. While he may have intended it in the way of an uncle gently ribbing someone, if he fails to see how it can be taken very differently by an Aboriginal person, or fail to listen when it gets pointed out, then he's compounding the initial offence, however unintentional that may have been. I have had, by the way, situations when things I've said or done were construed as racist and took the opportunity to explore perspectives, with good will emerging on the other side.

3. There is a collective responsibility (and opportunity).

I believe it's the same at a national level, with respect to Indigenous experiences and stories. If, when stories of racism are told on the national stage, and if these stories are ignored or downplayed, it amounts to a denial of their existence and/or of their significance, then it adds a (racist) insult to a (racist) injury, if that makes sense. It can range from how we portray the history of our a country - for example, dismissing the frontier wars as a (politically motivated minority) "black arm band version of history" - to allowing name calling (or booing, if it is experienced as racism) at an AFL match to go unchecked.

With respect to calling Australia 'racist', to my mind, we have to ask 'what is a country?' I'd argue that a country is its history and its culture, amongst other things. A culture is made up of a myriad of things, but is contained in symbols, stories and sense of identity. It's not about every single person. Whatever you think Australia "is", I'm sure it won't hold true for 100% of people. But we might, willingly or not, ascribe to the general sense of it, and it changes over time as experiences and narratives evolve. What I like about the Aboriginal story in recent years, is that we are, I think, finally coming to recognise and embrace Aboriginal history culture and stories as part of what it means to be Australian, for good and for bad, and we can't accept the good without accepting the bad. Ironically, this is all back to front to me. Aboriginal people were forced to accept newcomers and usurpers to their traditional lands, and to accept an invisible or inferior place in the minds of those newcomers. (Terra nullius.) I call it the Anglo-centric view of the world. The increased prevalence of welcomes to country, and the education surrounding them, and conversations these spawn, is an example of how we are evolving our knowledge and sense of who we are.

So what?

When racism, as interpreted and experienced by an Aboriginal person is pointed out, it is so often met with confusion, surprise, indignation and/or defensiveness instead of "Okay, so please let me understand why you experience it this way?", even if the 'perpetrator' doesn't see it this way, or didn't intend it. I don't think this happens, however, as, for the most part, no-one likes having their actions being referred to as racist, and by implication, that they themselves are seen as such. It can happen at an individual level, and at a societal level. We don't want to be seen as racist, individually or as a nation. Yet, from the micro (my ex-partner being called a 'black c**t' for having the temerity to walk down a public street past a construction site) to the macro (certain reactions to The Voice, land rights and sovereignty or any other relevant national policy issue), examples abound of stories of racism. We may not like it, but until we acknowledge that racism is, and continues in many ways, to be part of what Australia is, as experienced by it's Indigenous people, it can't move on, heal and fully celebrate the wonderful contribution of Aboriginal history, culture and identity has, and can have, in the life of our nation

/speech

I wanted the thread to get back on track but this is so worth reading it’s worth veering off. Thank you very much for taking the time to post it.

 

[Val Keating]

Is he training with the senior squad yet?

 

[shintemaster]

I've seen many discussions about racism on BigFooty over the years and, while I hate 'thread derailments', unless you create a separate thread to discuss it specifically, it usually arises in a context. Sorry The Filth Wizard. In this case, the question of whether TT will be booed, then the link to Goodes and booing.

On the booing stuff... while I'm not a fan of booing, unless it's generally good-natured, if I was in attendance this weekend, I'd be sorely tempted to do so whenever JHF touches the ball. The perfect solution, of course, would be to deny someone like me that opportunity, by stopping him from touching the ball. If I did, however, I'd probably be in the 'herd mentality' category I suspect. Or being a Kangaroo supporter, the mob mentality. Sigh... I wouldn't do it.

On the racism stuff... I'm using your comments, Roosurgence, as a springboard to comment as I think they represent a prevalent perspective which I think fails to adequately understand racism. It's not my intention to 'argue'. I get that you are well intentioned and I'm not calling you a racist. I get that you're largely wanting to defend people who haven't had a personal role in historical atrocities. Although I did have an Aboriginal partner, who did suggest once upon a time, that I might be (unintentionally) racist which was incredibly challenging to my well intentioned soul ego. It was a wake up call and ever since I've felt obliged to 'pay it forward'.

My perspective, by the way, comes primarily from this ex-partner - whose father was Murri and mother a white 'Anglo' Aussie - who was incredibly good at 'code switching' (between cultures) and at educating white fellas, like me, about subjects as sensitive as racism. I also worked at the Native Title Tribunal and conducted a review of their mediation practices, I worked at an Aboriginal NGO, and in these roles and in a consulting role, I have worked with many Aboriginal people as managers, colleagues and clients, and also from having an Aboriginal sister and brother... from another mother. With sanction and support from Aboriginal Elders, I've had the good fortune to facilitate Talking Circles with significant/predominantly Indigenous work groups and, in this environment, to hear some profound and moving 'truth telling' which will make you cry one minute, and laugh the next. (Most Aboriginal people I've met, are good at shifting between 'taking it seriously' and 'taking the piss' - being able to laugh loudly and often, including at themselves.) I've been taught by, challenged by and supported by Aboriginal people. Some have been bitter, but most have been very generous in spirit towards me as 'a new (4th or 5th generation) Australian'. None of this makes me an 'expert' nor a spokesperson, but I hope it has given me some useful insights that many don't have the opportunity to experience, which I'd like to share with the goal of bridging the divide.

The main points I'd make are:

1. The way the word 'racism' gets used isn't necessarily the same.

My experience is that when Aboriginal people refer to something being racist, they are referring to experiences or events that can range from; the extremes of genocide; to deliberate, race-based persecution or abuse; to unconscious systemic discrimination; to name-calling; to personal comments that are demeaning or hurtful, all based on a failure to fully understand, appreciate and respect their personal, historical or cultural perspective, story and values (or even existence). In my experience Aboriginal people tend to use the term racism more broadly than a narrow focus and definition of conscious, intentional prejudice or persecution based on a view that someone is inferior, based on their race, which I think is how most non-Indigenous people define racism. Hence, racism becomes a very loaded term, but it can help to accept one's part, individually, culturally and even historically, if one recognises the broader meaning it holds for Indigenous Australians. I also think it allows room to accept that one might be 'innocent' but also racist or at least part of a racist system or country, if that makes sense?

2. Racism, as much as it may confuse, bother or upset others, is defined by the victim - or, if you prefer, the person experiencing it.

While I think it was clumsy, I think it was what Peter Jess was trying to say, when referring to 'perpetrators'. I think he meant those who perpetrate an action of some kind, even unintentionally, versus the legal connotations of the word. That is, a perpretrator isn't an (alleged) criminal in this context, merely not the victim or offended. It's the same with sexism. The implication is that, at the very least, when someone says they've experienced racism, this needs to be respectfully listened to, with an attempt to understand why, even if intention was different to what was experienced. Kennett's jeans comment to Cyril's partner is a good example. While he may have intended it in the way of an uncle gently ribbing someone, if he fails to see how it can be taken very differently by an Aboriginal person, or fail to listen when it gets pointed out, then he's compounding the initial offence, however unintentional that may have been. I have had, by the way, situations when things I've said or done were construed as racist and took the opportunity to explore perspectives, with good will emerging on the other side.

3. There is a collective responsibility (and opportunity).

I believe it's the same at a national level, with respect to Indigenous experiences and stories. If, when stories of racism are told on the national stage, and if these stories are ignored or downplayed, it amounts to a denial of their existence and/or of their significance, then it adds a (racist) insult to a (racist) injury, if that makes sense. It can range from how we portray the history of our a country - for example, dismissing the frontier wars as a (politically motivated minority) "black arm band version of history" - to allowing name calling (or booing, if it is experienced as racism) at an AFL match to go unchecked.

With respect to calling Australia 'racist', to my mind, we have to ask 'what is a country?' I'd argue that a country is its history and its culture, amongst other things. A culture is made up of a myriad of things, but is contained in symbols, stories and sense of identity. It's not about every single person. Whatever you think Australia "is", I'm sure it won't hold true for 100% of people. But we might, willingly or not, ascribe to the general sense of it, and it changes over time as experiences and narratives evolve. What I like about the Aboriginal story in recent years, is that we are, I think, finally coming to recognise and embrace Aboriginal history culture and stories as part of what it means to be Australian, for good and for bad, and we can't accept the good without accepting the bad. Ironically, this is all back to front to me. Aboriginal people were forced to accept newcomers and usurpers to their traditional lands, and to accept an invisible or inferior place in the minds of those newcomers. (Terra nullius.) I call it the Anglo-centric view of the world. The increased prevalence of welcomes to country, and the education surrounding them, and conversations these spawn, is an example of how we are evolving our knowledge and sense of who we are.

So what?

When racism, as interpreted and experienced by an Aboriginal person is pointed out, it is so often met with confusion, surprise, indignation and/or defensiveness instead of "Okay, so please let me understand why you experience it this way?", even if the 'perpetrator' doesn't see it this way, or didn't intend it. I don't think this happens, however, as, for the most part, no-one likes having their actions being referred to as racist, and by implication, that they themselves are seen as such. It can happen at an individual level, and at a societal level. We don't want to be seen as racist, individually or as a nation. Yet, from the micro (my ex-partner being called a 'black c**t' for having the temerity to walk down a public street past a construction site) to the macro (certain reactions to The Voice, land rights and sovereignty or any other relevant national policy issue), examples abound of stories of racism. We may not like it, but until we acknowledge that racism is, and continues in many ways, to be part of what Australia is, as experienced by it's Indigenous people, it can't move on, heal and fully celebrate the wonderful contribution of Aboriginal history, culture and identity has, and can have, in the life of our nation

/speech

Unequivocally one of the cleanest, simplest and most approachable posts I've ever seen on this topic. A credit to you and a great message well said.

 

[The Filth Wizard]

I've seen many discussions about racism on BigFooty over the years and, while I hate 'thread derailments', unless you create a separate thread to discuss it specifically, it usually arises in a context. Sorry The Filth Wizard. In this case, the question of whether TT will be booed, then the link to Goodes and booing.

On the booing stuff... while I'm not a fan of booing, unless it's generally good-natured, if I was in attendance this weekend, I'd be sorely tempted to do so whenever JHF touches the ball. The perfect solution, of course, would be to deny someone like me that opportunity, by stopping him from touching the ball. If I did, however, I'd probably be in the 'herd mentality' category I suspect. Or being a Kangaroo supporter, the mob mentality. Sigh... I wouldn't do it.

On the racism stuff... I'm using your comments, Roosurgence, as a springboard to comment as I think they represent a prevalent perspective which I think fails to adequately understand racism. It's not my intention to 'argue'. I get that you are well intentioned and I'm not calling you a racist. I get that you're largely wanting to defend people who haven't had a personal role in historical atrocities. Although I did have an Aboriginal partner, who did suggest once upon a time, that I might be (unintentionally) racist which was incredibly challenging to my well intentioned soul ego. It was a wake up call and ever since I've felt obliged to 'pay it forward'.

My perspective, by the way, comes primarily from this ex-partner - whose father was Murri and mother a white 'Anglo' Aussie - who was incredibly good at 'code switching' (between cultures) and at educating white fellas, like me, about subjects as sensitive as racism. I also worked at the Native Title Tribunal and conducted a review of their mediation practices, I worked at an Aboriginal NGO, and in these roles and in a consulting role, I have worked with many Aboriginal people as managers, colleagues and clients, and also from having an Aboriginal sister and brother... from another mother. With sanction and support from Aboriginal Elders, I've had the good fortune to facilitate Talking Circles with significant/predominantly Indigenous work groups and, in this environment, to hear some profound and moving 'truth telling' which will make you cry one minute, and laugh the next. (Most Aboriginal people I've met, are good at shifting between 'taking it seriously' and 'taking the piss' - being able to laugh loudly and often, including at themselves.) I've been taught by, challenged by and supported by Aboriginal people. Some have been bitter, but most have been very generous in spirit towards me as 'a new (4th or 5th generation) Australian'. None of this makes me an 'expert' nor a spokesperson, but I hope it has given me some useful insights that many don't have the opportunity to experience, which I'd like to share with the goal of bridging the divide.

The main points I'd make are:

1. The way the word 'racism' gets used isn't necessarily the same.

My experience is that when Aboriginal people refer to something being racist, they are referring to experiences or events that can range from; the extremes of genocide; to deliberate, race-based persecution or abuse; to unconscious systemic discrimination; to name-calling; to personal comments that are demeaning or hurtful, all based on a failure to fully understand, appreciate and respect their personal, historical or cultural perspective, story and values (or even existence). In my experience Aboriginal people tend to use the term racism more broadly than a narrow focus and definition of conscious, intentional prejudice or persecution based on a view that someone is inferior, based on their race, which I think is how most non-Indigenous people define racism. Hence, racism becomes a very loaded term, but it can help to accept one's part, individually, culturally and even historically, if one recognises the broader meaning it holds for Indigenous Australians. I also think it allows room to accept that one might be 'innocent' but also racist or at least part of a racist system or country, if that makes sense?

2. Racism, as much as it may confuse, bother or upset others, is defined by the victim - or, if you prefer, the person experiencing it.

While I think it was clumsy, I think it was what Peter Jess was trying to say, when referring to 'perpetrators'. I think he meant those who perpetrate an action of some kind, even unintentionally, versus the legal connotations of the word. That is, a perpretrator isn't an (alleged) criminal in this context, merely not the victim or offended. It's the same with sexism. The implication is that, at the very least, when someone says they've experienced racism, this needs to be respectfully listened to, with an attempt to understand why, even if intention was different to what was experienced. Kennett's jeans comment to Cyril's partner is a good example. While he may have intended it in the way of an uncle gently ribbing someone, if he fails to see how it can be taken very differently by an Aboriginal person, or fail to listen when it gets pointed out, then he's compounding the initial offence, however unintentional that may have been. I have had, by the way, situations when things I've said or done were construed as racist and took the opportunity to explore perspectives, with good will emerging on the other side.

3. There is a collective responsibility (and opportunity).

I believe it's the same at a national level, with respect to Indigenous experiences and stories. If, when stories of racism are told on the national stage, and if these stories are ignored or downplayed, it amounts to a denial of their existence and/or of their significance, then it adds a (racist) insult to a (racist) injury, if that makes sense. It can range from how we portray the history of our a country - for example, dismissing the frontier wars as a (politically motivated minority) "black arm band version of history" - to allowing name calling (or booing, if it is experienced as racism) at an AFL match to go unchecked.

With respect to calling Australia 'racist', to my mind, we have to ask 'what is a country?' I'd argue that a country is its history and its culture, amongst other things. A culture is made up of a myriad of things, but is contained in symbols, stories and sense of identity. It's not about every single person. Whatever you think Australia "is", I'm sure it won't hold true for 100% of people. But we might, willingly or not, ascribe to the general sense of it, and it changes over time as experiences and narratives evolve. What I like about the Aboriginal story in recent years, is that we are, I think, finally coming to recognise and embrace Aboriginal history culture and stories as part of what it means to be Australian, for good and for bad, and we can't accept the good without accepting the bad. Ironically, this is all back to front to me. Aboriginal people were forced to accept newcomers and usurpers to their traditional lands, and to accept an invisible or inferior place in the minds of those newcomers. (Terra nullius.) I call it the Anglo-centric view of the world. The increased prevalence of welcomes to country, and the education surrounding them, and conversations these spawn, is an example of how we are evolving our knowledge and sense of who we are.

So what?

When racism, as interpreted and experienced by an Aboriginal person is pointed out, it is so often met with confusion, surprise, indignation and/or defensiveness instead of "Okay, so please let me understand why you experience it this way?", even if the 'perpetrator' doesn't see it this way, or didn't intend it. I don't think this happens, however, as, for the most part, no-one likes having their actions being referred to as racist, and by implication, that they themselves are seen as such. It can happen at an individual level, and at a societal level. We don't want to be seen as racist, individually or as a nation. Yet, from the micro (my ex-partner being called a 'black c**t' for having the temerity to walk down a public street past a construction site) to the macro (certain reactions to The Voice, land rights and sovereignty or any other relevant national policy issue), examples abound of stories of racism. We may not like it, but until we acknowledge that racism is, and continues in many ways, to be part of what Australia is, as experienced by it's Indigenous people, it can't move on, heal and fully celebrate the wonderful contribution of Aboriginal history, culture and identity has, and can have, in the life of our nation

/speech

 

[ferball]

Good stuff Kimbo.

 

[Sillygit]

whatya know, here i am wishing the tarryn thread was talking about tarryn again, that's novel.

Good book end from kimbo though.

 

[Shermanator]

Is that Parfitt from Geelong. Not exactly a flattering pic of him either.

There’s a couple of pics of TT looking angry and aggressive that keep getting wheeled out. It’s s**t.

Nah thats his brother Semifit..