Autopsy Round 5, 2024: GWS v St.Kilda

[saintbill]

a) the team has changed since the preseason.
b) we just lost by 1 point to a top side, take your idiotic stats and put them somewhere warm.

Well if win/loss is an idiotic stat, can u suggest a metric we should use instead?

I think losing more than we win over a prolonged period is evidence we are not very good.

Again, there are reasons to think we get better the next couple of years. Let's hope the improvement comes.

 

[luca77]

Evening all,
I only caught the 2nd half today, and knew the result already.
With that in mind, we really weren't that bad in the 2nd half, in fact we were pretty good I think.

Glass half full:
We beat the premiers
We lost to the best team so far this year by a point
We've had 4 debutants
We've managed to not get scored heavily against in the 3 quarters a week that we haven't been scoring!
We should be getting good players back right around the time that we get some "easier" games.
Arie is putting his best foot forward in the 2s, and Lance is getting his couple of goals a week.
Wilson is actually making important contributions, especially late in games.
Garcia came in and started shoving GWS stars around, and got a few kicks to go with his tackles.
Sinclair finding his feet, and Steele back to pretty much his best.
Nas rocking our world.
Caminiti shows something each week.

We're still gonna need patience with Owens, Windy and Pou - but I reckon all three will work it out.
King has been much better for us than some are remembering right now. But he needs an injection of what Garcia brought to the table today. I'd drop him, simply for spinning that goddddamn f'ing ball and flipping it around while he's walking in with a look of resignation on his face. Eye of the tiger and a consistent grip on the ball or don't even bother. What exact problem do kids these days have with Plugger's approach - or even big Stew's? Jamarra is losing his timidness now, and looks awesome. Hopefully Max does the same.

A win from the next two and we're still in the season I reckon. Two losses and bring on the draft/trade discussions.

 

[CursingFijian]

We've had a tough draw to start the season. Only 1 game on our preferred deck after 5 rounds and we have our second 5 day break looming. We've had 3 losses by a combined score of only 13 points. The boys are working hard, and I salute them for that. Not everything is dire. But, we do need to keep improving.

I don't think it's unreasonable to put some responsibility back on the forwards to send the ball somewhere between the little sticks on a reasonable set shot.

I said in the preview thread that Collard and Garcia will both be in our starting 23 by years end based on output. Garcia showed what he is capable of today...what a gutsy little player. I could watch him all day. Little battler fighting out of his weight division and returning eagerly to the well for more each time.

I think Collard will put smiles on our faces too. He won't set the world on fire for tackles, but if he gathers deep in a pocket he'll kick a score. If he marks anywhere inside 50 he will kick a score. He has genuine goal kicking nous.

 

[Ads734]

Can’t wait for the ‘how did Garcia slide to pick what’s we….’ He’s actually a jet and on pure attributes not performance looks like he should have been a first rounder.

Love his aggression and a bit of C u next Tuesday about him.

Pou the last few weeks has looked better and stronger. Just want him to have that one big disposal breakout game.

NAS is out of this world. Even as a half back he does some things where he just makes you go wow. That last clearance to cama’s goal was great. Like how Ross is really throwing the midfield magnets around. Battle on the ball , why the heck not?


King will be fine if his body holds up.

 

[MrFoster]

The nice thing with Hugo is that he's unequivocally a midfielder. I have no doubts that Mitch, Pou and Nas will be good afl players (Mitch and Nas already are really), but it's not clear at this stage if it will be in the midfield. With Windy and Hugo it's pretty clear they will be mids.

Totally agree Garcia and Winghager are genuine mids.

You can add Stocker and Brynes who were both good mids in the juniors, until Dow, Crouch comes back. Philipou and Owens should split times between forward and mid until they are ready.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

King has been much better for us than some are remembering right now. But he needs an injection of what Garcia brought to the table today. I'd drop him, simply for spinning that goddddamn f'ing ball and flipping it around while he's walking in with a look of resignation on his face.

ok dr phill

 

[tomjoad]

Can’t wait for the ‘how did Garcia slide to pick what’s we….’ He’s actually a jet and on pure attributes not performance looks like he should have been a first rounder.

Love his aggression and a bit of C u next Tuesday about him.

Pou the last few weeks has looked better and stronger. Just want him to have that one big disposal breakout game.

NAS is out of this world. Even as a half back he does some things where he just makes you go wow. That last clearance to cama’s goal was great. Like how Ross is really throwing the midfield magnets around. Battle on the ball , why the heck not?


King will be fine if his body holds up.

Battle on the wing is terrible.
Battle playing in the middle has worked more than once. If I recall correctly, he was thrown into the ruck one time during Ratt's tenure, and he went into beast mode. Not that his ruck craft was great, but his efforts were herculean.
He is worth looking at in there.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Well if win/loss is an idiotic stat, can u suggest a metric we should use instead?

I think losing more than we win over a prolonged period is evidence we are not very good.

Again, there are reasons to think we get better the next couple of years. Let's hope the improvement comes.

Yeah sure. Try using your brain instead of a metric.
It depends on who is playing and who we are playing against, none of which is captured by you metric.

 

[saintbill]

Yeah sure. Try using your brain instead of a metric.
It depends on who is playing and who we are playing against, none of which is captured by you metric.

The stat I referenced was 10 wins out of 23 games, that is a whole season in terms of games, so you can't blame the draw. We have played every side bar 2 in that stretch, and we are below average. These are the facts.

Unfortunately we won 11, 10 and 11 out of 18 the years prior to Ross. This is just more of the same which is very very ordinary.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The stat I referenced was 10 wins out of 23 games, that is a whole season in terms of games, so you can't blame the draw. We have played every side bar 2 in that stretch, and we are below average. These are the facts.

Unfortunately we won 11, 10 and 11 out of 18 the years prior to Ross. This is just more of the same which is very very ordinary.

I didn't blame the draw, but you have your stats operating over two seasons.
What makes you think the last 23 games were an even draw?

I use my eyes, i see our current game plan , its not even what it was last year.

 

[Simon Templar]

Hugo ignited them. Should be playing a full game Thursday

When Hugo took the field his enthusiasm & effort totally stood out above most of his teammates.

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

And another thing. The way Owens holds the ball for set shot drop kicks is almost guaranteed to fail. He holds the back and the top of the ball. It should be middle finger (more or less) of each hand on the side stitching, point the ball slightly downwards and hold it in the centre so that the drop, due to gravity, means the ball drops on to the top of your foot at the right angle. The way he holds it means the ball is almost certain to land anywhere on your foot, flatter than would allow control of it and it can go in any direction. That's why his snaps and kicks on the run are more accurate, he doesn't have the time to stuff up the way he holds it.

How hard would it be to show him how the hold it properly? He'd soon see the results himself. Its not rocket science or a mysterious artform!!

Well said. And with Max spinning the ball like a top as he runs in to kick for goal, it has me yelling at the television for him to bloody hold the ball properly and then run in a straight line to the goals as he kicks. How this is allowed to keep happening is beyond me. Watch Members closely as he gets ready to kick. He has exactly the same 3 touch routine, with putting his mouth guard in his sock, taps himself 3 times, holds the ball correctly, then runs straight in to kick. All of this taking the same amount of time and NOT rushing it. Makes it far more likely to you will kick it straight. With Owens, King and Higgins it is a constant raffle.

 

[beside the seaside]

Well said. And with Max spinning the ball like a top as he runs in to kick for goal, it has me yelling at the television for him to bloody hold the ball properly and then run in a straight line to the goals as he kicks. How this is allowed to keep happening is beyond me. Watch Members closely as he gets ready to kick. He has exactly the same 3 touch routine, with putting his mouth guard in his sock, touches himself 3 times, holds the ball correctly, then runs straight in to kick. All of this taking the same amount of time and NOT rushing it. Makes it far more likely to you will kick it straight. With Owens, King and Higgins it is a constant raffle.

But last year there was a period when he was spinning the ball and kicking everything.

It seems every time he starts missing again we come back to the ball spinning. It must be more that he's flat at the moment and when his energy is down he can be poor. It's the mental side of the game he needs to work on, when he's mentally on his kicking is beautiful despite the ball spin.

Mind you I thought he started the season really well and reckon some of the criticism of him is over the top.

 

[Saintbloke]

We look a lot less organised on field than last season so far. The forward half is a mess, and the midfield on a good day can at least break even. Probably need drop Pou to the VFL and try Collard maybe for a little more flash and movement in the forward half. I think Lyon needs to start addressing slow starts and bad quarters.

 

[Grav]

It seems every time he starts missing again we come back to the ball spinning

But spinning the ball can’t be a good thing, would be interesting to see the percentages of a kick firstly spinning the ball & then holding it steady on going straight.

My two bobs worth on King is, I think he’s turned into a lazy player, notice when defenders have the ball he only half hearted gives chase.

Also not knowing him personally & from way up here in Qld. I only get to see him on the idiot box (except for this week, am going to the game) he comes across as FIGJAM, only track watchers & people that are close would be able to agree or disagree.

 

[Cairnsman]

Holy hell, we can't even talk about if our forward structure suits King or not without people going off the deep end.

Our first half of last year we were very open an unpredictable.
Today we kick six in an open forward line when he goes off.

Why can't we discuss this without being shut down?
We lost Lockett in 95. Sydney makes the Granny in 96, next year we are in a Grand Final. Beneficial to both clubs.

We need to be able to discuss the pros and cons of King.
Do I want him traded? No. But we need to sort out our forward line, 3 qtrs we are congested like an Easter egg hunt, last quarter, we open up and nearly snatch a win.
King is not untouchable, nobody is. He has been in the system 5 years and is not coming on.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Been saying this for a while now, it's been annoying listening to the fans who think our midfield issue is the reason we have forward line issues, yes midfield is a big problem, forward line is a bigger issue and the main problem is we are trying to build it around a guy that is unfortunately not looking like he's a forward, or at least the deepest Forward, is it time to trial him up the ground in a ruck role, defence anyone?

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

But last year there was a period when he was spinning the ball and kicking everything.

It seems every time he starts missing again we come back to the ball spinning. It must be more that he's flat at the moment and when his energy is down he can be poor. It's the mental side of the game he needs to work on, when he's mentally on his kicking is beautiful despite the ball spin.

Mind you I thought he started the season really well and reckon some of the criticism of him is over the top.

Spinning the ball is a raffle. You are less likely to have good ball drop if you dont have control of the ball. Pick a past great forward and not a ball spinner to see anywhere.

 

[Desperate saint]

I just want King to be able to find a way into games when it isn't going his way. I don't think we are better without him but I don't think we do him any favours keeping him deep in the forward line 100% of the time. I compare him to Joe Daniher and how much better has Joe been at Brisbane since playing 2nd ruck and getting up the ground?

Last year's stats with and without King (the game where he was subbed in the first minute is counted as without)
Games with King: 5-6 (45%)
Games without King: 8-4 (67%)

I honestly think we are wasting Kings talents. I want him rotating between FF, CHF and 2nd ruck.

Agree 100% ridicalous to see Mitch rucking undersize when we have a 200cm athelete alongside

 

[Desperate saint]

Been saying this for a while now, it's been annoying listening to the fans who think our midfield issue is the reason our we have forward line issues, yes midfield is a big problem, forward line is a bigger issue and the main problem is we are trying to build it around a guy that is unfortunately not looking like he's a forward, or at least the deepest Forward, is it time to trial him up the ground in a ruck role, defence anyone?

also his attitude-his lazy pass off when 45 out said it all for me

 

[Cairnsman]

The other thing I have been saying since Lyon came back was he can't turn water into wine, he doesnt have a magic wand and that he sold the Prez a mandate to undertake a hard rebuild.

Those few wins we had up to R6 probably reinforced the idea Ross may well be capable of turning water into wine but our record and performances since about R6 last year have been bottom 8.

I'm curious, for those fans that predicted we would make top 4, or were adamant we wouldn't slide, where do you predict we'll finish now? Or do you think our issues are still only as a result of injury?

 

[tomjoad]

But last year there was a period when he was spinning the ball and kicking everything.

It seems every time he starts missing again we come back to the ball spinning. It must be more that he's flat at the moment and when his energy is down he can be poor. It's the mental side of the game he needs to work on, when he's mentally on his kicking is beautiful despite the ball spin.

Mind you I thought he started the season really well and reckon some of the criticism of him is over the top.

Playing further upfield is good for him. He has to work a bit harder, and gets his hands on the ball more and influences games by bringing others into play. The pressure is then off him when going for goal, because his responsibilities lie elsewhere.
Caminiti however, though raw, loves being the mark clunking, goal kicking full forward. Sharman and Membrey handy foils.

 

[Cairnsman]

also his attitude-his lazy pass off when 45 out said it all for me

This is where Ross is going to start earning his coin, he has to have a chat with Max about the elephant in the room.

 

[Pardon me]

I'm still leaning towards we are a better side with Max in.
Mindful hes still learning his craft and isnt the size of a genuine stand his ground gorilla type yet.
I am a bit worried that knowing this, the club still plays him as a stay at home forward and not as a make multiple leads to create space type.
Maybe that development is still on the cards? I'm not sure.
I think we rely too heavily on him to bring it to ground and our smalls to be in the right places to capitalise.
Much prefer to see Max making multiple leads at the ball carrier (when our midfield is tearing it up) to create that option or if its not a good percentage play, at least create space behind him for one of the other forwards to lead into.
It's tough, he's clearly a mental player and when hes on is very good but goes into slumps quite often which is noticeable when his second efforts (which are exceptional when on) drop off.
I think we persist with King as the top banana but we really need to tweak our forward setup and inside 50 plans - which to be fair to the club, may be on the cards after further development.

 

[Cairnsman]

Playing further upfield is good for him. He has to work a bit harder, and gets his hands on the ball more and influences games by bringing others into play. The pressure is then off him when going for goal, because his responsibilities lie elsewhere.
Caminiti however, though raw, loves being the mark clunking, goal kicking full forward. Sharman and Membrey handy foils.

Yeah further up the ground, Ruck or defence. King has the same major deficiency Sharman has, no agility or ability to contest the ball at ground level and a defensive mindset and unfortunately high half forwards have to possess these attributes as key tools.

 

[pebblesofsand]

The other thing I have been saying since Lyon came back was he can't turn water into wine, he doesnt have a magic wand and that he sold the Prez a mandate to undertake a hard rebuild.

Those few wins we had up to R6 probably reinforced the idea Ross may well be capable of turning water into wine but our record and performances since about R6 last year have been bottom 8.

I'm curious, for those fans that predicted we would make top 4, or were adamant we wouldn't slide, where do you predict we'll finish now? Or do you think our issues are still only as a result of injury?

Yep the shocking start to the season has exposed us completely. Definitely not top 4 - barely make the 8 - horrible list.

I mean look at our losses so far -

lost to GWS (1st on the ladder) by 1 point,
lost to Geelong (4th on the ladder) by 8 points on a ground where they are rarely beaten (by anyone),
lost to Essendon (currently 9th on the ladder) by 4 points virtually after the siren.

We're done for - time for a rebuild!!!!