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Autopsy This is going to be painful. The Dogs V Bombers debacle thread.

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Dog 36 said:
The rule is he is timid the exception is pack marks and throws his weight around.

I feel at times the ruck position has been imposed on him rather than he wanting it.
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He had a huge growth spurt in his later teens if I remember correctly mainly was playing as a mid before that
 
Dog 36 said:
The rule is he is timid the exception is pack marks and throws his weight around.

I feel at times the ruck position has been imposed on him rather than he wanting it.
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Pretty sure he's said he just wants to be the number 1 ruckman, hasn't he?
 
GetDimmaBack said:
Pretty sure he's said he just wants to be the number 1 ruckman, hasn't he?
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That may be the case and if it is then the club should have said here is the job description for the type of ruck we want,

I don't think it is Timmy fault alone I would say the club is wanting that type of ruck and he fits the bill
 

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Look at this BS from two of our panicky smal defenders at the 9:48 mark.

what is JJ telling bramble?

Regardless, both of these twits loiter close to opponents when they dont have the ball - the opposite of 'spreading' !!. its just basic, basic dumb shit and they both do it - JJ offers no good outlet for bramble, and when bramble hot potatoes it to JJ , he doesnt spread himself either, and JJ hot potatoes it straight back to him.

And these arent green draftees, these are supposed to be the senior players driving our ball movement out of defence.

WTF are our coaches doing?

Actually the running it to that specific area stinks of some direction from coaches thought up halfway through the week - JJ saying to bramble 'lets try that new thing we've been told to do' and just stuffing it up with real defenders involved.
 
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chop0205 said:
Bit of an elephant in the room I reckon. Malthouse was scathing of English on 774
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English is copping it on just about every media outlet, which is great.

He's been a sorry excuse of a ruckman for too long, finally he's being called out for it. All Australian ruckman means nothing if you can't win the hitouts to advantage or constantly get monstered by ruckmen well past their use by date.

Give me a meat and potato ruckman like Ben Hudson or Will Minson any day over this 257cm imposter. Should be playing basketball if he's afraid to get hit in a ruck contest.
 
who_let_the_dogs_out said:
English is copping it on just about every media outlet, which is great.

He's been a sorry excuse of a ruckman for too long, finally he's being called out for it. All Australian ruckman means nothing if you can't win the hitouts to advantage or constantly get monstered by ruckmen well past their use by date.

Give me a meat and potato ruckman like Ben Hudson or Will Minson any day over this 257cm imposter. Should be playing basketball if he's afraid to get hit in a ruck contest.
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The club and in particular football department should be copping it nit Timmy

Surely the club has chosen to have the ruck you describe there is no other explanation
 
Dog 36 said:
The club and in particular football department should be copping it nit Timmy

Surely the club has chosen to have the ruck you describe there is no other explanation
Click to expand...
Oh for sure, they are to blame for this gameplan but he is the one who goes into the centre bounce like a deer in the headlights. Blokes like Rhys Stanley and a 50 year old Goldstein should not be monstering the so called AA Ruckman.

Imagine how good our midfield would be if we played Grundy or even Ivan Soldo. And we're about to pay him a rumoured 1M a year on a lengthy contract? Please.

His strengths are his field kicking and follow up work, but why should that be his job? At his height and wingspan he should be dominating the hitouts. Win the tap then provide an option down back in the hole or as a tall up forward to bring it to ground.

There's a reason why most of the premiership sides of the last decade or so (other than Melbourne) have had run of the mill ruckmen, it's a role that isn't as important as marking key defence pillars or speed on the outside etc etc, yet the Bulldogs like the extra numbers around the contest and see English as almost another midfielder, but that all falls apart if our mids aren't getting first use of the ball and constantly playing reactive footy rather than dictating the play in the middle.

Watching teams like Melbourne, Port, Sydney, GWS even the likes of Brisbane demonstrates what a proper tap ruckman can do for a midfield. I blame Beveridge as well because clearly he does not respect the role of a ruckman, just ask Will Minson or Stef Martin, who barely got a look in.
 
its strange because I remember him coming out last year and really shoving opponents - not in a natural ruck craft sort of way, but a "I am specifically shoving you because thats what ruckman do" kind of way. It was clunky , but semi-effective.

but he seems to have abandoned that this season.

regardless, hes only going to get better. 26+ is the prime time for ruckman and the good ones tend to play well into their 30s

For mine, Id want a godfather offer in terms of picks to risk going forward only with Darce.

Our game hasnt caught up to capitalising on english's strengths yet, even though he was underwhelming when we did target him last week. (put your ****ing dukes out front please)
 
Tim has had his arse kicked by a debutant in Geelong (had to be replaced by Lobb and the game turned), then demoted to the forward line after half time in round 1 (replaced by Lobb again), got beaten by Bailey Williams and Rhys Stanley (Jesus Christ), and now got thoroughly whooped by geriatric Todd Goldstein.

All this comes after it was revealed he basically was non-contact the whole preseason due to what are obviously concussion concerns.

If we are for some reason offering him a hefty contract it should be done so with the understanding that Darcy is our #1 ruck next season. Let Tim play forward more, on the wing, wherever, he can roam and take grabs without worrying about getting physical with actual rucks.
 
who_let_the_dogs_out said:
Oh for sure, they are to blame for this gameplan but he is the one who goes into the centre bounce like a deer in the headlights. Blokes like Rhys Stanley and a 50 year old Goldstein should not be monstering the so called AA Ruckman.

Imagine how good our midfield would be if we played Grundy or even Ivan Soldo. And we're about to pay him a rumoured 1M a year on a lengthy contract? Please.

His strengths are his field kicking and follow up work, but why should that be his job? At his height and wingspan he should be dominating the hitouts. Win the tap then provide an option down back in the hole or as a tall up forward to bring it to ground.

There's a reason why most of the premiership sides of the last decade or so (other than Melbourne) have had run of the mill ruckmen, it's a role that isn't as important as marking key defence pillars or speed on the outside etc etc, yet the Bulldogs like the extra numbers around the contest and see English as almost another midfielder, but that all falls apart if our mids aren't getting first use of the ball and constantly playing reactive footy rather than dictating the play in the middle.

Watching teams like Melbourne, Port, Sydney, GWS even the likes of Brisbane demonstrates what a proper tap ruckman can do for a midfield. I blame Beveridge as well because clearly he does not respect the role of a ruckman, just ask Will Minson or Stef Martin, who barely got a look in.
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I agree with you 100%

The coaches and MC must be happy with the way Timmy plays otherwise a decision on him been Number 1 ruck would have been made a long time ago. Everyone can see he is like a deer in headlights but they are happy with that because they continue to play him as NO 1 ruck.

The coaches believe this type of ruck is best for this side there is no other explanation as to why he continues to play as our No 1 ruck.

My opinion is we needed a Grundy, Soldo, Meek, Nankervis etc type and we had one in Sweet but we have chosen Timmy as the ruck type we want.

Sweet should have been played full stop but the fear was we may actually go better with him in the side than not and our coach is stubborn as he knows best.

Look at games played by Sweet and wins be played in much more than a coincidence.


He was and always be timid you can see it.
 
stefoid said:
For mine, Id want a godfather offer in terms of picks to risk going forward only with Darce.
Click to expand...
We definitely can't go forward with only Darcy rucking. We should move English on, bring in a standard tap ruckman, bank the cash saved and draft picks, and use that cash saved to bolster the backline with an established key defender.

Paying overs for this guy is insane.

Our backline isn't anywhere near good enough for opposition teams to smash us in the middle and go forward at the rate that it currently is. IMO it's the main reason we have underperformed the last couple of seasons.
 
who_let_the_dogs_out said:
We definitely can't go forward with only Darcy rucking. We should move English on, bring in a standard tap ruckman, bank the cash saved and draft picks, and use that cash saved to bolster the backline with an established key defender.

Paying overs for this guy is insane.

Our backline isn't anywhere near good enough for opposition teams to smash us in the middle and go forward at the rate that it currently is. IMO it's the main reason we have underperformed the last couple of seasons.
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Should have played a Sweet type as first ruck.

English forward/2nd ruck

Naughton CHB



This needed to be done prior to Naughton seeing himself as a forward and Timmy as a No 1 ruck
 

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who_let_the_dogs_out said:
Oh for sure, they are to blame for this gameplan but he is the one who goes into the centre bounce like a deer in the headlights. Blokes like Rhys Stanley and a 50 year old Goldstein should not be monstering the so called AA Ruckman.

Imagine how good our midfield would be if we played Grundy or even Ivan Soldo. And we're about to pay him a rumoured 1M a year on a lengthy contract? Please.

His strengths are his field kicking and follow up work, but why should that be his job? At his height and wingspan he should be dominating the hitouts. Win the tap then provide an option down back in the hole or as a tall up forward to bring it to ground.

There's a reason why most of the premiership sides of the last decade or so (other than Melbourne) have had run of the mill ruckmen, it's a role that isn't as important as marking key defence pillars or speed on the outside etc etc, yet the Bulldogs like the extra numbers around the contest and see English as almost another midfielder, but that all falls apart if our mids aren't getting first use of the ball and constantly playing reactive footy rather than dictating the play in the middle.

Watching teams like Melbourne, Port, Sydney, GWS even the likes of Brisbane demonstrates what a proper tap ruckman can do for a midfield. I blame Beveridge as well because clearly he does not respect the role of a ruckman, just ask Will Minson or Stef Martin, who barely got a look in.
Click to expand...
How can you genuinely say that Martin “barely got a look in.”

So many terrible takes these last few days.
 
Coaches Votes

Western Bulldogs v Essendon​

10 Samuel Durham (ESS)
6 Xavier Duursma (ESS)
4 Mason Redman (ESS)
4 Zach Merrett (ESS)
2 Harrison Jones (ESS)
2 Kyle Langford (ESS)
1 Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (WB)
1 Taylor Duryea (WB)
 
CarnTheScray said:
How can you genuinely say that Martin “barely got a look in.”

So many terrible takes these last few days.
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Martin was injured at the end, but still should have played more than 13 games across those 2 seasons.

Clearly English wasn't the right guy to persist with is my point.
 
Struggle said:
The strange part is that he's put in some great performances against Gawn. Then will somehow let Bailey Williams beat him in the contest
Click to expand...
Ruck Contests (Hitouts / To Advantage / Sharked)
49 - English (24 / 8 / 8)
27 - Darcy (11 / 2/ 4)

English v B. Williams (40 contests)
Hitouts: 18 / 15
To Advantage: 5 / 3
Sharked: 6 / 2
Clearances: 15 / 10
Score: 3.2 / 1.3

Darcy v B. Williams (21 contests)
Hitouts: 6 / 10
To Advantage: 1 / 7
Sharked: 3 / 1
Clearances: 6 / 12
Score: 2.0 / 0.2

Hitouts To Advantage
WB: 10
WC: 10

I know it was pretty even but English had the better of Williams both in the ruck and around the ground. (2 coaches votes) Williams did inflate his numbers against Darcy however.

And yes I get that people want English to dominate a player like Williams rather than just beat him.
 
Unorth said:
Tim has had his arse kicked by a debutant in Geelong (had to be replaced by Lobb and the game turned), then demoted to the forward line after half time in round 1 (replaced by Lobb again), got beaten by Bailey Williams and Rhys Stanley (Jesus Christ), and now got thoroughly whooped by geriatric Todd Goldstein.

All this comes after it was revealed he basically was non-contact the whole preseason due to what are obviously concussion concerns.

If we are for some reason offering him a hefty contract it should be done so with the understanding that Darcy is our #1 ruck next season. Let Tim play forward more, on the wing, wherever, he can roam and take grabs without worrying about getting physical with actual rucks.
Click to expand...

English v Stanley (84 contests)
Hitouts: 31 / 41
To Advantage: 15 / 11
Clearances: 38 / 29

Despite losing the overall hitouts by 10, English had more hitouts to advantage against Geelong anyway.
 
For some time - not just this year - there has been a clear disconnect between what the stats say about English and what the many critics' eye test is telling them.

It looks that way to me too. I often think he's put in a pretty soft game but the HOs and especially HOTAs seem pretty good. Also our clearance stats are normally pretty good (hard to tell how much that's due to the likes of Libba and Bont and how much to English though). He also gets lots of around the ground disposals and tackles but they don't appear to hurt the opposition terribly much.

I haven't quite figured it all out yet, although I admit I haven't thought deeply about it to this point.
To save me getting a headache can anyone translate all this into a coherent analysis for me? One that explains the contrast between the eye test and the stats.
 

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dogwatch said:
For some time - not just this year - there has been a clear disconnect between what the stats say about English and what the many critics' eye test is telling them.

It looks that way to me too. I often think he's put in a pretty soft game but the HOs and especially HOTAs seem pretty good. Also our clearance stats are normally pretty good (hard to tell how much that's due to the likes of Libba and Bont and how much to English though). He also gets lots of around the ground disposals and tackles but they don't appear to hurt the opposition terribly much.

I haven't quite figured it all out yet, although I admit I haven't thought deeply about it to this point.
To save me getting a headache can anyone translate all this into a coherent analysis for me? One that explains the contrast between the eye test and the stats.
Click to expand...
It could be that he goes to water when the opposition get a run on, and that's what sticks in the mind. On the weekend when the bombers were kicking goals in the last quarter, he seemed non existent. Not that he is alone in that midfield group.
 
who_let_the_dogs_out said:
...

There's a reason why most of the premiership sides of the last decade or so (other than Melbourne) have had run of the mill ruckmen, it's a role that isn't as important as marking key defence pillars or speed on the outside etc etc, yet the Bulldogs like the extra numbers around the contest and see English as almost another midfielder, but that all falls apart if our mids aren't getting first use of the ball and constantly playing reactive footy rather than dictating the play in the middle.

Watching teams like Melbourne, Port, Sydney, GWS even the likes of Brisbane demonstrates what a proper tap ruckman can do for a midfield. I blame Beveridge as well because clearly he does not respect the role of a ruckman, just ask Will Minson or Stef Martin, who barely got a look in.
Click to expand...
We probably both agree that the club doesn't need to be paying English $1m a year for 7 years but the bolded bits seem contradictory (Gawn aside). Could you clarify please? Is a good ruckman important or not? And what constitutes being "good" - just being a strong tap ruckman at CBs, stoppages and throw-ins?
 
dogwatch said:
For some time - not just this year - there has been a clear disconnect between what the stats say about English and what the many critics' eye test is telling them.

It looks that way to me too. I often think he's put in a pretty soft game but the HOs and especially HOTAs seem pretty good. Also our clearance stats are normally pretty good (hard to tell how much that's due to the likes of Libba and Bont and how much to English though). He also gets lots of around the ground disposals and tackles but they don't appear to hurt the opposition terribly much.

I haven't quite figured it all out yet, although I admit I haven't thought deeply about it to this point.
To save me getting a headache can anyone translate all this into a coherent analysis for me? One that explains the contrast between the eye test and the stats.
Click to expand...

I fee like the eye test fails when vs. physical opponent. Gawn or in last games case Goldy (despite his age). He just doesn’t engage that well locked in or tries to dance around which looks pretty soft.

You would need to consider the quality of clearances, long bombs with no hope or did it result in a score? But I feel like this is more a forward line issue too often rather than if English gives them best first use.

I feel like I don’t seem him acting like a mid anymore and kicking more. Just a few ruckmen handballs but thats more eye test.

I don’t know. 🤷
 
Oliver G is it possible to see how many of English’s first 50/100 games he had the hit-outs or not of Bulldogs players, i.e. a proxy for if he was playing as #1 or #2 ruck, and how that stacks up for example against Luke Darcy?

Whether he should be a #1 Ruck or a KPF/Ruck now is one question, but my sense is for his development years we made him the #1 ruck way too quickly.
 
dogwatch said:
We probably both agree that the club doesn't need to be paying English $1m a year for 7 years but the bolded bits seem contradictory (Gawn aside). Could you clarify please? Is a good ruckman important or not? And what constitutes being "good" - just being a strong tap ruckman at CBs, stoppages and throw-ins?
Click to expand...
A solid tap ruckman is all that's needed. Clearly this won't happen whilst Beveridge is at the helm though.

A McInerney, Soldo, Witts type, someone that can win the tap in the centre and around the ground, help out in the backline etc. No frills, but doesn't mind the physical stuff.

Our A grade mids are being wasted with our current ruck setup.
 
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bresker said:
Adam Cooney clowns around on his late night C7 show but he’s still an astute commentator.

His opinion isn’t that we’ve got too many fringe players - every team does - but that Bev has no idea what his best team is . We’ve got a revolving door of almost - nearly players in & out every week . Team selection lacks any consistency, and thus we’re unsettled .

Injuries will occur as the season goes on , and then I fear we’ll be in massive trouble .
Click to expand...

When you include the number of players who's careers are either stalling, on the precipice, all but over, combined with all of the long shot cast offs currently in or on the verge of the team. Then we do have too many fringe players. Especially on the wings and flanks, positions in the modern game that are essentially extra midfielders. When you have a group so large and out of form as we currently have. It's little wonder that we've seen a revolving door and such an unsettled side.

It's why the load rests so heavily on the shoulders of The Bont, Libba, Treloar and in Smiths absence why we've fast tracked Sanders before his time. There just isn't anything underneath. Why the pro commentariat refuse to recognise this fact and prefer the trope of our midfield being one of the best in the competition just beggars belief. I suspect that they do it deliberately as it gives them an easily digestible talking point for them and low IQ fans to hook into during the current pile on.

Anybody actually paying attention over the last season or so would recognise this as a verifiable fact.


H Dolphin said:
On my way to the fools' paradise, dropped in to say that I don't think Beveridge is destroying the club. Frankly, it appears to be more lack of player effort than anything else.
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Its the causality dilemma that Ive been wrestling with for some time.

Coach or players. Ones natural reaction is to take the easy route and back the players and blame the coach entirely.

Im not so sure anymore...
 

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