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Draft Review 21st Century draft game - full 22 edition

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Guardian Hawk said:
Very good get this late IMO.

Considered him with several picks the last few rounds. I have Tredrea and Gunston and planned to do "small ball" around them (Greene, Matera, etc, etc). Even though I trust Gunston as a 2nd forward, I was worried others might judge that my team lacked another key forward so Darling was going to go to FF and Gunston to a FP. In the end, I stuck to my guns of the effectiveness of small ball (and will put a tall swing man on the bench). I also thought I might have been safe cos you were the only one missing a 2nd key forward and I thought you'd go a more traditional CHF type. Though, as you say, we are into the "3rd tall" territory now so it was a risk for me to leave him.

I think he's been underrated a little bit. The line I was going to use when I picked him up was that the last player to be selected that has 500+ career goals was picked over 150 picks ago - and that was a small in Luke Breust.
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And that's why we drafted him to Fremantle
 
Guardian Hawk said:
I think perhaps his recent form in the twilight of his career may have meant he has been undersold somewhat, but my next selection was the best winger in the game for at least 7 years (and so good that he actually forced his way into the All Australian team when wingers have mostly been shunned).

He won a best and fairest in a Grand Final side and was All Australian the same year. He earnt another All Australian and was instrumental in a premiership year. He made the squad 3 more times when no genuine wingmen were selected. He finished top 5 in the Brownlow (and top 12 two more times) - unheard of for a winger. He was also top 5 in the Coaches award. A genuine gut running beast that averaged 30+ disposals for 5 years running whilst being completely on the outside...

With pick 212, Hawthorn selects...Andrew Gaff.

RedmanWasHere
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Good pick up. I admit I picked Embley ahead of Gaff more on attributes and the eye test rather than a fine combed tooth through statistics. It is hard between eras as disposal rates have spiked and I would say particularly in those wingman/midfielder hybrid roles we see more of now.

I may have this really wrong but I always considered Gaff a little more inside (thus hybrid) than the players I consider pure wingmen.

Looking through Gaff's stats he has 8 seasons going at 2+ clearances, compared to 4 combined seasons at that rate for I.Smith and Embley combined. And basically averaged twice as many clearances as them. Smith and Embley averaged about 5 contested possessions a game compared to 7 for Gaff.

Despite all that extra ball Gaff provided, only 0.79 combined goals/assists per game. 1.29 and 1.22 for the others who had considerably less of the ball - yes you can say they rotated forward more (rebound 50 numbers still check out though) but I think it's simply more in line with their hurt factor.

Anyway I still think Gaff is a great pick and certainly racked up coaches/Brownlow votes/disposals far more than some of the other wingmen selected so far. But being a bit of a butcher/lacking hurt factor, and a bit more of a midfielder/wingman hybrid are two reasons some others may have been taken before him. I have Hannebery on the other wing - maybe Gaff could be considered an upgrade on him? - so adding Gaff to the other would be leaning too much into disposal mania and less into skill.
 

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Mr Meow said:
Good pick up. I admit I picked Embley ahead of Gaff more on attributes and the eye test rather than a fine combed tooth through statistics. It is hard between eras as disposal rates have spiked and I would say particularly in those wingman/midfielder hybrid roles we see more of now.

I may have this really wrong but I always considered Gaff a little more inside (thus hybrid) than the players I consider pure wingmen.

Looking through Gaff's stats he has 8 seasons going at 2+ clearances, compared to 4 combined seasons at that rate for I.Smith and Embley combined. And basically averaged twice as many clearances as them. Smith and Embley averaged about 5 contested possessions a game compared to 7 for Gaff.

Despite all that extra ball Gaff provided, only 0.79 combined goals/assists per game. 1.29 and 1.22 for the others who had considerably less of the ball - yes you can say they rotated forward more (rebound 50 numbers still check out though) but I think it's simply more in line with their hurt factor.

Anyway I still think Gaff is a great pick and certainly racked up coaches/Brownlow votes/disposals far more than some of the other wingmen selected so far. But being a bit of a butcher/lacking hurt factor, and a bit more of a midfielder/wingman hybrid are two reasons some others may have been taken before him. I have Hannebery on the other wing - maybe Gaff could be considered an upgrade on him? - so adding Gaff to the other would be leaning too much into disposal mania and less into skill.
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You could have picked up Gaff by pick 100 and have been happy. He slid bigtime.

Gaff was hot on my radar but I went for other players. Had I taken Gaff instead of Sloane, I would have missed Sloane who I desired for the contested ball, tackles and goal sense. Soemone would have taken him fast. A lot of teams are hunting wingmen.
 
Part 2:

May: Probably NT selection 2010.
Petracca: 2014.
C. Cornes: 1997.
Tex: 2007. (NSW scholarship.)
Lucas: 1994.
Sandilands: 2002 RD.
Jobe: 2002 FS.
Daniher: 2012 FS.
Lachie Neale: 2011.
N. Daicos: 2021 FS.
H. Taylor: 2007.
Bradshaw: 1995. (Unknown.)
Gov: 2011 RD.
P. Cripps: 2013.
T. Stewart: 2016.
S. Taylor: 2017.
A. Pearce: 2013.
J. White: 1994.
R. Marshall: 2017 RD.
C. Oliver: 2015.
H. Andrews: 2014. (BL academy.)
Sicily: 2013.
Wiz: 1994. (Unknown.)
Walsh: 2018.
Greene: 2011.
B. Grundy: 2012.
Zerrett: 2013.
Presti: 1995.
Harley Reid: 2023.
Dogga: 2019.
C. Bolton: 1998. (Was taken by Brisbane in his draft.)
Otto: 1997.
Micky O: 1994.
Lenny: 1998.
Hurley: 2008.
Primus: 1995. (Was a 17yo on Geelong's list in 1992.) (In 1995, he was selected by Fitzroy.)
Francou: 1996. (Prelisting perhaps?)
Weiters: 2015.
Lever: 2014.
Darcy Moore: 2014.
Goodwin: 1996 PSD.
Gibbo: Any of the rookie drafts between 2003-05.
Treacy: 2021 RD.
Mac: 2021.
Ugle-Hagan: 2020.
Hogan: 2012 mini draft.
Truck: 2002 RD.
Moons: 1997.
Gunston: 2009.
Green: 2019.
L. Parker: 2010.
Robbo: 1996.
Sam Darcy: 2021.
Grimes: 2010 PSD.
Souv: 2016.
Clement: Zonal I believe. (1995.)
Rozee: 2018.
Sidey: 2008.
Gulden: 2020.
Bell: 1994. (Inaugural Dockers list.)
Noah Anderson: 2019.
Laird: 2012 RD.
Silk: 2000.
Hannebery: 2008.
Nicky Dal: 2001.
McLean: SSP 2019.
Wirra: 1995 selection. (The last 16yo.)
P. Davis: 2008.
Andrew Brayshaw: 2017.
J. Dawson: 2015.
Isaac Smith: 2010.
Charlie Cameron: 2014 RD.
 
Purple7x08_24 said:
You could have picked up Gaff by pick 100 and have been happy. He slid bigtime.

Gaff was hot on my radar but I went for other players. Had I taken Gaff instead of Sloane, I would have missed Sloane who I desired for the contested ball, tackles and goal sense. Soemone would have taken him fast. A lot of teams are hunting wingmen.
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I still consider Gaff a mix of a midfield/wingman so find it hard to compare him to pure wingmen, especially for things like disposals/votes where hybrids would always do better. He recorded 7+ clearances on 7 occassions compared to no times for I.Smith for instance.

5th in the league for disposals in 2015; however 26th in the league for score involvements (in a grand final team). 73rd in the league for score involvements a year later. 123rd in 2017. 35th in 2018 in a premiership year. That's what I mean by his relative lack of hurt factor and damage with the ball. SI, goals and goal assist numbers very low for a guy averaging 30+ disposals over a 4 year period.

Still a very nice player but that alone would exclude him from top 100 for me.
 
Mr Meow said:
I still consider Gaff a mix of a midfield/wingman so find it hard to compare him to pure wingmen, especially for things like disposals/votes where hybrids would always do better. He recorded 7+ clearances on 7 occassions compared to no times for I.Smith for instance.

5th in the league for disposals in 2015; however 26th in the league for score involvements (in a grand final team). 73rd in the league for score involvements a year later. 123rd in 2017. 35th in 2018 in a premiership year. That's what I mean by his relative lack of hurt factor and damage with the ball. SI, goals and goal assist numbers very low for a guy averaging 30+ disposals over a 4 year period.

Still a very nice player but that alone would exclude him from top 100 for me.
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Who ever gets him please employ someone briefly to straighten his head up.
 
Mr Meow said:
I still consider Gaff a mix of a midfield/wingman so find it hard to compare him to pure wingmen, especially for things like disposals/votes where hybrids would always do better. He recorded 7+ clearances on 7 occassions compared to no times for I.Smith for instance.

5th in the league for disposals in 2015; however 26th in the league for score involvements (in a grand final team). That's what I mean by his relative lack of hurt factor and damage with the ball. SI, goals and goal assist numbers very low for a guy averaging 30+ disposals over a 4 year period.

Still a very nice player but that alone would exclude him from top 100 for me.
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Will Day could be on that level but his trajectory has dropped off with consistency. I'd love to pick him as a project player but is still yet to prove himself. I felt like Gaff had become that player. There's a few similar players in the system RN that play a similar role to Gaff that could be worth a pick late game.
 
By comparison, Gulden is another I consider a wingman/midfielder hybrid. He is number 1 in the league for score involvements per game. Similar clearance and CP numbers to Gaff's career averages so a very similar role, just a LOT more damaging.
 
Purple7x08_24 said:
Will Day could be on that level but his trajectory has dropped off with consistency. I'd love to pick him as a project player but is still yet to prove himself. I felt like Gaff had become that player. There's a few similar players in the system RN that play a similar role to Gaff that could be worth a pick late game.
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I think Brad Hill has been a more damaging better wingman over his career.
 

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ArdentEagle said:
Now stop taking all the wings, you Kents!!
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Deledio went much earlier than I'd thought. He was in my first list. I created a list with bolded (selected) unbolded first priority and then a list of players that I wanted in order.

Gaff was in there too. I've got two in mind but they're both B+ players
 
ArdentEagle said:
Gaff was forced to play more inside later in his career. He's an out and out wing though
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It all works on scales though, right?

If you have 8 seasons of 2+ clearances a game you were not as "out and out" wing as the two players I referred to who had 4x seasons of 2+ clearances combined (Smith and Embley).

It's rarely black or white. But I'd see Gaff as more of a hybrid than a Bradley Hill or Mitch Duncan, and that's fine. On the other end, Hannebery was more "inside" than Gaff, but not as much as JPK. Gaff was somewhere between a Smith and a Hannebery.
 
Brent Stanton Lingsface
 
Purple7x08_24 said:
Deledio went much earlier than I'd thought. He was in my first list. I created a list with bolded (selected) unbolded first priority and then a list of players that I wanted in order.

Gaff was in there too. I've got two in mind but they're both B+ players
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Deledio was a much more skilled and damaging player than Gaff. An extra score involvement and half a combined goal/assist a game off 3 less disposals. 25% less turnovers.
 

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Mr Meow said:
Deledio was a much more skilled and damaging player than Gaff. An extra score involvement and half a combined goal/assist a game off 3 less disposals. 25% less turnovers.
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I'm currently comparing two players and one is clearly better than the other but I do like both.

Not sure how you do it but I'm comparing peak potential rather than overall averages, especially if they've been playing for 6-7 seasons.

How good would Nick Daffy be
 
Geelong
Joel Corey
I could not ignore him for any longer I tried to hold out as he is a Geelong legend and more appreciated within Geelong than out, 2 Best and Fairests in the glory years and All Australians, I find it hard to seperate him and Enright for no nonsense consistent gems. Very happy to have him and has the ability to sit on a half back or go on ball and do damage.

Dane Beams
I think this guy compliments my midfield, I have Neale and Hayes as starters and Beams is a more power goal kicking Martin type that would fit in very well. His best was amazing and had years were he was 30 possesions and 1 goal averages.
Lets give him a fresh start get him to that clean country air and get some good hobbies for this misguided youth!
 
Lingsface said:
Geelong
Joel Corey
I could not ignore him for any longer I tried to hold out as he is a Geelong legend and more appreciated within Geelong than out, 2 Best and Fairests in the glory years and All Australians, I find it hard to seperate him and Enright for no nonsense consistent gems. Very happy to have him and has the ability to sit on a half back or go on ball and do damage.

Dane Beams
I think this guy compliments my midfield, I have Neale and Hayes as starters and Beams is a more power goal kicking Martin type that would fit in very well. His best was amazing and had years were he was 30 possesions and 1 goal averages.
Lets give him a fresh start get him to that clean country air and get some good hobbies for this misguided youth!
Click to expand...

Both on my list. Dayne Beams concerns about injury but his peak is top tier.

Lot of good picks are going to be taken in the following rounds
 
RedmanWasHere said:
eth-dog.

You make mention of me not taking Hooker and having a too heavy bias against Essendon players.

My team isn't called Essendon.
It's Manninghorse.
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I had to watch Embley, Duncan, Gaff, Kelly and Murphy go after I decide to take a winger so I have to take who's next on my list, so yeah.

Kieran Jack next. reggie
 
Purple7x08_24 said:
I'm currently comparing two players and one is clearly better than the other but I do like both.

Not sure how you do it but I'm comparing peak potential rather than overall averages, especially if they've been playing for 6-7 seasons.

How good would Nick Daffy be
Click to expand...
It's funny because sometimes you look at the stats and think they don't do the player justice, or vice versa.

In a few respects Embley's weren't eye popping. Then Gaff rightly gets pushed with disposals, coaches votes (caveats being his hybrid midfielder status and living in the mega disposal era) etc but in my team I felt Embley simply would function better. So sometimes you have to trust your gut more than a stats sheet or even an accolade list. Much harder to get coaches votes on the wing outside of Cousins, Judd and Kerr who took the stoppages - than it was to be a hybrid wingman/midfielder alongside Priddis (okay he did rack some up), Shuey and whoever else.

And the potential vs output, peak vs consistency arguments bring further complexity into it. A player who spikes very hard for 4 years can be a bigger premiership-influencer than a guy who ran at 7/10 for 10 straight years. But the latter should still be considered a plus too if they had a whole bunch of B+ grade seasons.
 
Lingsface said:
Geelong
Joel Corey
I could not ignore him for any longer I tried to hold out as he is a Geelong legend and more appreciated within Geelong than out, 2 Best and Fairests in the glory years and All Australians, I find it hard to seperate him and Enright for no nonsense consistent gems. Very happy to have him and has the ability to sit on a half back or go on ball and do damage.

Dane Beams
I think this guy compliments my midfield, I have Neale and Hayes as starters and Beams is a more power goal kicking Martin type that would fit in very well. His best was amazing and had years were he was 30 possesions and 1 goal averages.
Lets give him a fresh start get him to that clean country air and get some good hobbies for this misguided youth!
Click to expand...
You echoed my thoughts on Corey. Once I had Selwood and Stewart who I felt couldn't be ignored as best in class or very close to it from those available, I decided to let Cats get swept up by other players for the next stack of rounds. It did surprise me that a dual B&F winner (once in a semi final year of 2005, once in arguably Geelong's most dominant year outside of the GF: 2008) - considering who he had to compete against - slid this far. And ultimately Corey was a very prolific player who was elite on the inside but capable as a two way running wingman. A hybrid midfielder/wingman himself but more so on the stoppage side.

Against him his hurt factor from disposals wasn't as high as others and he was still never "the man" ahead of Ablett, Bartel and Selwood at different points.

Beams is a gold value pick too for the reasons you stated. Maybe a bit of a "what if" scenario stopping him having a superstar level career, but he was on the brink of it a couple of times and his best seasons were very damaging.
 
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