Toast Round 13 = Melbourne 71-72 Collingwood

[jmac70]

Correct, no one is denying it is preferred.
What i (and I believe Robroy above) are arguing is that this preferred model needs to be tempered by the constraints of each individual game.
ie....yes prefer Darcy and Dan in general, but have the flexibility to differ from that model if the personnel/conditions of an individual game might require it.

It’s not really a model per se. Many teams go with a forward / ruck as the second option.

Cox has shown himself to be no longer relevant when it comes to AFL footy. Thankfully, it hasn’t cost us whilst Dan has been injured. There is no way they will play Cox again with Dan in the team.

 

[Apex36]

I'm aware that we're in the process of trying to move from a 2 ruck system to a 1.5 ruck forward system but one of our strengths under Fly has been our ability to pick teams on the "horses for courses" process. Love him or laugh at him, Coxy has troubled both Gawn and McInnerney in the past (and I know its 2 years on from 2023 but we all remember who was in those centre bounces in the last quarter of the Granny). Now playing Cameron on Gawn one on one had to happen, Cameron is in great form and Gawn IS getting older but he really showed Darcy who the smaller ruckman was on Monday night and he rag dolled him so much so that the Melbourne mids all looked a lot more potent than they had for a long time. If the Dees had have had some forwards, that number of clearances would have probably translated into a win.

So, whilst I'm all for the progression (and fitting in all of the forwards we now find ourselves having) I think we have to temper the process against certain sides. I mean if Witts were to get a hold of Cameron like Gawn did then Gold Coast's mids and forwards would certainly make us pay. So too Brisbane's and Geelong's.

We dodged a bullet on Monday letting Gawn run riot, lets be smarter.

Sorry but this is all a load of crap when the 2025 version of Cox is an 8 hit out 5 disposal player who gets easily pushed around.

People need to understand that Mason Cox is no longer a viable option as a second ruck against any team, let alone the ones containing the most dominant ruckmen in the comp.

Gawn and Witts would massacre the current version of Cox. There’s a reason that Steene was made carry over emergency over him. The sooner people get their heads around the fact that Mason can no longer perform at the required level the better. He is done.

 

[Apex36]

Yes maybe i did, no maybe i didn't.
Sorry, I'm not a scholar on Collingwood selections 2025.
I am only going on what i have seen recently, which is that we had Cox in the team, but decided to omit him in the last two games.
This smacks to me of transition, not of a final decision having been made in Round Zero.

It was made in round 0. The only reason Cox got games was because McStay got injured.

 

[IlovethePies]

Sorry but this is all a load of crap when the 2025 version of Cox is an 8 hit out 5 disposal player who gets easily pushed around.

People need to understand that Mason Cox is no longer a viable option as a second ruck against any team, let alone the ones containing the most dominant ruckmen in the comp.

Gawn and Witts would massacre the current version of Cox. There’s a reason that Steene was made carry over emergency over him. The sooner people get their heads around the fact that Mason can no longer perform at the required level the better. He is done.

Darcy Cameron was also massacred by Gawn, according to many comments on this thread.
In most ruck contests, we would presumably ensure that Cox was taking the contest against the opposition second ruck.
Cox would have helped us immensely down the line against Melbourne.
We seemed to have a plan to go there.
But with Melbourne's aerial supremacy, it was an ineffective plan.
Had Cox played (instead of Hayes for example) the win would have most likely been greater.
This does not mean I wanted Cox to play instead of Will
I didn't.
But it means that Cox is still a useful player who might come in given the nature of the oppostion.

 

[jmac70]

Darcy Cameron was also massacred by Gawn, according to many comments on this thread.
In most ruck contests, we would presumably ensure that Cox was taking the contest against the opposition second ruck.
Cox would have helped us immensely down the line against Melbourne.
We seemed to have a plan to go there.
But with Melbourne's aerial supremacy, it was an ineffective plan.
Had Cox played (instead of Hayes for example) the win would have most likely been greater.
This does not mean I wanted Cox to play instead of Will
I didn't.
But it means that Cox is still a useful player who might come in given the nature of the oppostion.

Have you watched Cox play this year?
He’s taken 12 marks in 6 games.

 

[IlovethePies]

Have you watched Cox play this year?
He’s taken 12 marks in 6 games.

Marks not just the issue.
If he can't mark, he brings the ball to ground, where we are the best in the competition.
This is so underestimated...his ability to spoil oppositoin marks.

Given our game plan, we are always 100% best positioned to contest ground ball.
Even if we don't take the mark, spoiling an opposition mark and getting the ball to the ground is a win.

 

[jmac70]

Marks not just the issue.
If he can't mark, he brings the ball to ground, where we are the best in the competition.
This is so underestimated...his ability to spoil oppositoin marks.

Given our game plan, we are always 100% best positioned to contest ground ball.
Even if we don't take the mark, spoiling an opposition mark and getting the ball to the ground is a win.

“Spoiling opposition marks” just means not marking it himself. He’s been woeful this season and is sadly finished.
Goes out as a Collingwood hero and premiership player.

 

[IlovethePies]

“Spoiling opposition marks” just means not marking it himself. He’s been woeful this season and is sadly finished.
Goes out as a Collingwood hero and premiership player.

Yes maybe at the end of this year he retires.
But he still has a role to play in our advance to September, in my opinion.

 

[jmac70]

Yes maybe at the end of this year he retires.
But he still has a role to play in our advance to September, in my opinion.

Only through injury or player management.

 

[Kirby]

I don’t think this years Cox has been bringing the ball to ground as claimed.

He’s been as outmarked as anyone. He was last year too.

I’m happy for him to get more games but I’d like that to be after he rips a VFL game apart with a performance that demands it.

 

[sr36]

I'm aware that we're in the process of trying to move from a 2 ruck system to a 1.5 ruck forward system but one of our strengths under Fly has been our ability to pick teams on the "horses for courses" process. Love him or laugh at him, Coxy has troubled both Gawn and McInnerney in the past (and I know its 2 years on from 2023 but we all remember who was in those centre bounces in the last quarter of the Granny). Now playing Cameron on Gawn one on one had to happen, Cameron is in great form and Gawn IS getting older but he really showed Darcy who the smaller ruckman was on Monday night and he rag dolled him so much so that the Melbourne mids all looked a lot more potent than they had for a long time. If the Dees had have had some forwards, that number of clearances would have probably translated into a win.

So, whilst I'm all for the progression (and fitting in all of the forwards we now find ourselves having) I think we have to temper the process against certain sides. I mean if Witts were to get a hold of Cameron like Gawn did then Gold Coast's mids and forwards would certainly make us pay. So too Brisbane's and Geelong's.

We dodged a bullet on Monday letting Gawn run riot, lets be smarter.

I'd agree with you if I thought that the current Cox would be more competitive against Gawn or Big O than Cameron is. In 2024 they changed the ruck rules - again - and allowed rucks to use a straight arm to block out the other ruck. That rule cooked Cox - he's not strong enough against the good rucks.

 

[3rdMan]

He massacred us at stoppage and was a strong interceptor. It was a ripping game from Maxy.

I was talking solely about his marking. He was good in the ruck, but his marking was not a huge influence.

 

[CaptainHowdy87]

Should we have played Cox???

Absolutely

He's owned Gawn multiple times before.

 

[DopeMaster]

Sweet baby Jebus yet another perfectly good thread devolves into a ‘Cox as 2nd ruck’ discussion. Could do with its own thread.

I guess it’s a good thing if such a minor/non-issue is all we’ve got to quibble about.

 

[Vicky Park]

Sweet baby Jebus yet another perfectly good thread devolves into a ‘Cox as 2nd ruck’ discussion. Could do with its own thread.

I guess it’s a good thing if such a minor/non-issue is all we’ve got to quibble about.

It’s the bye’s fault.

Strap in for more seemingly endless ‘Cox’ discussion over the next week.

 

[Apex36]

Darcy Cameron was also massacred by Gawn, according to many comments on this thread.
In most ruck contests, we would presumably ensure that Cox was taking the contest against the opposition second ruck.
Cox would have helped us immensely down the line against Melbourne.
We seemed to have a plan to go there.
But with Melbourne's aerial supremacy, it was an ineffective plan.
Had Cox played (instead of Hayes for example) the win would have most likely been greater.
This does not mean I wanted Cox to play instead of Will
I didn't.
But it means that Cox is still a useful player who might come in given the nature of the oppostion.

Sorry but that’s a load of garbage, if Cox plays instead of Hayes we become top heavy in wet weather.
If Cox plays instead of McStay we weaken ourselves aerially as McStay is a far superior mark to Cox despite the height difference. Cox doesn’t bring the ball down consistently anymore. He’s consistently out marked.

Saying the win would have been greater if Cox played is pure fantasy. The reality is that we lose running power and likely lose the game.

 

[Big Bryza]

No. Cameron is our best ruckman. Gawn was rarely up against the second ruck. It was Cameron he was massacring at stoppage. He would have massacred Cox at stoppage too and Cox wouldn't have been outstanding around the ground like Cameron was.

Cox is a better centre square ruckman than DC. It's a pity his game around the ground and up forward has fallen to bits. I still think we see him at stages in the back half of the season.

Gawn was huge in terms of hitouts, he quite often just belted the ball forward at the centre bounce. Clearly, he's marking around the ground was important as well.

DC was far from terrible though. He arguably impacted in the air as well as anyone in the game.

 

[gouki88]

Correct, no one is denying it is preferred.
What i (and I believe Robroy above) are arguing is that this preferred model needs to be tempered by the constraints of each individual game.
ie....yes prefer Darcy and Dan in general, but have the flexibility to differ from that model if the personnel/conditions of an individual game might require it.

It’s hard to justify the kind of flexibility you’re suggesting when Cox hasn’t been even close to AFL calibre this season

 

[Peters_Nuts]

Sorry but that’s a load of garbage, if Cox plays instead of Hayes we become top heavy in wet weather.
If Cox plays instead of McStay we weaken ourselves aerially as McStay is a far superior mark to Cox despite the height difference. Cox doesn’t bring the ball down consistently anymore. He’s consistently out marked.

Saying the win would have been greater if Cox played is pure fantasy. The reality is that we lose running power and likely lose the game.

This is bang on. Nothing this year suggests to me that Cox could have replicated what McStay did on Monday. Goal from 40 out on an angle and a great contested mark and goal in the last quarter.

We need to put an end to this Cox debate. I think those who are pro Cox like the idea of him being in the team vs what's a realistic output from him at the moment.

I really want him to find some form but there's not a single game this season where we can say that we wouldn't have won if it wasn't for Cox.

 

[sr36]

Cox is a better centre square ruckman than DC. It's a pity his game around the ground and up forward has fallen to bits. I still think we see him at stages in the back half of the season.

Gawn was huge in terms of hitouts, he quite often just belted the ball forward at the centre bounce. Clearly, he's marking around the ground was important as well.

DC was far from terrible though. He arguably impacted in the air as well as anyone in the game.

He was a better centre square ruckman than DC in 2023, but in 2024 they changed the rules to allow rucks to use a straight arm to protect the ball drop - it cooked Coxy as a first ruck as the opposition first rucks are too strong for him and keep him away from the ball drop - he can't get over the top of them anymore. Max would have done the same to Cox as he did to Cameron - only more easily and for the whole game - Cameron was more competitive in the second half.

 

[Peters_Nuts]

He was a better centre square ruckman than DC in 2023, but in 2024 they changed the rules to allow rucks to use a straight arm to protect the ball drop - it cooked Coxy as a first ruck as the opposition first rucks are too strong for him and keep him away from the ball drop - he can't get over the top of them anymore. Max would have done the same to Cox as he did to Cameron - only more easily and for the whole game - Cameron was more competitive in the second half.

We literally saw this against Xerri as well.

 

[jmac70]

Cox is a better centre square ruckman than DC.

 

[Professor Knowall]

It’s the bye’s fault.

Strap in for more seemingly endless ‘Cox’ discussion over the next week.

Actually, I think discussion should drill in on the bye instead - it’s looming as a danger bye.

 

[Pie thon]

Does anyone remember the Brent MaCaffer

Brent Macaffer

Age

37

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.6

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.6

5star

T

4.6

5star

CL

1.2

4star

tag on Trent Cotchin

9

Trent Cotchin

Age

35

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.4

5star

K

13.8

5star

HB

9.5

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.9

5star

CL

5.2

5star

D

19.0

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

9.5

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

4.3

5star

CL

3.5

4star

D

16.6

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

8.6

5star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.0

3star

in 2014? Yes, Ed Langdons idol. It was described as a hard tag then, and was not sustainable to be allowed that heavy in the following matches.

 

[Professor Knowall]

Does anyone remember the Brent MaCaffer tag on Trent Cotchin in 2014? Yes, Ed Langdons idol. It was described as a hard tag then, and was not sustainable to be allowed that heavy in the following matches.

Great point - yes I do remember that. Trent Cotchin spoke out against it, Richmond complained to the AFL and the following week a string of early frees paid against MaCaffer put an immediate end to this tactic - until revived by Langdon on KB.