Moved Thread Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?

[Cyclops]

I thought the same, so I looked up his stats. 189 Career hit outs across 19 Seasons

More concerning was the 142 career tackles ;-)

Yes, that was normal. BT, Roach, Templeton, Kernahan, they didn't tackle. Dunstall was seen as a second fiddle to Dermott, it only dawned on most people slowly how great he was.

 

[Cyclops]

I disagree with you.
Lockett was exceptionally agile for his stature. Yes, he was heavy boned (Tom Hawkins) but he was just as nimble as Dunstall once the ball hit the deck.
He had a better jump than Dunstall. Often took pack marks such was his ability to time his jump and take the ball at the peak of his extended reach.

I'm kind of staggered to be saying all of this to be honest. You would think in the day and age of social media and virtually countless video footage available, this would be common knowledge nowadays.

To imply Lockett was never agile nor couldn't leap is way off the mark.

I saw him play many a time. His leading was extraordinary, very good in the packs too where he used his bulk with great effect.

Maybe it was by comparison, the leapers were guys like Capper, Barker, Silvagni, Kernahan. Crosisca stood on a guys head one time, and Starcevich had a massive mark of the year in the same vein.

Dunstall rarely got high off the ground, and neither did Plugger. I recall round 1 1990 when Hawthorn beat Geelong, Dunstall did get right off the deck but flubbed the mark, I think Morrissey roved it. Pies were off in WA that weekend (might’ve been when Tony Francis copped 6 weeks for returning a kick to some Eagle flog) so I toddled off to Waverley.

Ablett soared, but Plugger did not.

I could well be wrong but I did see the bloke in the flesh. I appreciate you have an opinion, good luck to you.

 

[kreuze_missile]

Sticks was a significantly better footballer than Jonathan Brown.

Brown gets remembered for acts of bravery but I'd argue that Sticks was tougher for longer, and played in a more physical era of footy.

Brown only led the goalkicking for his side 5 times. Sticks did it 11 times at Carlton + 2 for Glenelg.

Sticks kicked 100+ more goals in the AFL in far fewer games, and an additional 266 in the SANFL.

Brown didn't captain any premierships. Sticks captained two. Sticks the 2nd longest serving captain in AFL history behind Selwood.

Sticks a 5x All Australian, Brown just twice.

Stick 66 goals in State of Origin. Brown just 2.

Jono Brown has 1 Coleman. That's all he has over Sticks.


mods - time to add Sticks to the poll. I will make my case for Brendan Fevola shortly.

WHERE IS STICKS?

 

[Ricmel]

Dunstall rarely got high off the ground, and neither did Plugger.

I think that is reasonable. Plugger could jump but he was very rarely on anyone's shoulders! But it is a common misconception that he was slow and not agile. He was exceptional on the ground, he had a very good burst of speed for 10-15 metres and was probably the best field kick to play the game.

Barassi described Lockett as the most skillful player he had ever seen. Personally I would have Lockett and Greg Williams as the cleanest hands I've ever seen. Lockett just never fumbled. (Nick Daicos is getting up there).

 

[Cyclops]

I think that is reasonable. Plugger could jump but he was very rarely on anyone's shoulders! But it is a common misconception that he was slow and not agile. He was exceptional on the ground, he had a very good burst of speed for 10-15 metres and was probably the best field kick to play the game.

Barassi described Lockett as the most skillful player he had ever seen. Personally I would have Lockett and Greg Williams as the cleanest hands I've ever seen. Lockett just never fumbled. (Nick Daicos is getting up there).

Lockett's hands were superb, so bloody strong, in the marks and on the deck. His body positioning was superb, and like a lion he was dangerous across a short distance.

A lot of Lockett's goals came from 15 out directly in front because he demolished packs with ease. However he was deadly on any angle, could banana, torp and snap. His go to was a deadly drop punt from up to 55 metres.

I agree he was as good a field kick as any, and a better shot for goal than any (including the tireless practiser and professional Dunstall). There was a silly media show where they pitted Dunstall, Lockett, Daicos and someone else, with a range of kicks from a bunch of different distances and angles. Lockett was comfortably the best, and Daicos only did better at one kick, IIRC a long banana no one should have been able to make.

Given he barely trained and never did homework, and played in some hopeless sides (and a few decent ones) its astounding he was so clearly dominated the league.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Dunstall rarely got high off the ground, and neither did Plugger. I recall round 1 1990 when Hawthorn beat Geelong, Dunstall did get right off the deck but flubbed the mark, I think Morrissey roved it. Pies were off in WA that weekend (might’ve been when Tony Francis copped 6 weeks for returning a kick to some Eagle flog) so I toddled off to Waverley.

I've read an old repeated misconception a couple of times that Dunstall didn't take high or pack marks. People have just forgotten. This is simply not true. May not have been multiple every week like Modra or Capper but still happened pretty regularly (and certainly more than most modern players).

Highlights from the era are fairly limited but just watching one video, I picked out the first 10 or so before I got bored...

 

[Cyclops]

I've read an old repeated misconception a couple of times that Dunstall didn't take high or pack marks. People have just forgotten. This is simply not true. May not have been multiple every week like Modra or Capper but still happened pretty regularly (and certainly more than most modern players).

Highlights from the era are fairly limited but just watching one video, I picked out the first 10 or so before I got bored...

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Thanks mate the fourth one there is the round 1 1990 one, not a mark.

He got up occasionally but at the time he was seen as boring and reliable.

 

[MadMaxx]

Out of the players on the List

2x Are AFL HOF legends

2x Are Sports Australia Hall of Fame inductees

It is the Same 2

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Thanks mate the fourth one there is the round 1 1990 one, not a mark.

He got up occasionally but at the time he was seen as boring and reliable.

I know that some had that view and it's always irked me.

As you'll no doubt remember, key forwards of that era had "big personalities". Mark Jackson would have massive dummy spits all the time, was in the ads and was "box office controversial viewing". Capper had the big died mullet, the strut, was in the social pages/back pages every week, making "music", etc. Dermott was similar - the big strut, the died mullet, the haymakers, running through huddles, stirring the opposition, big mouth, etc. This was common of most of the key forward of the time, they were egotistical, they'd smash blokes, they'd lose it at the umps, etc.

Dunstall was not like that whatsoever - he shied away from the media, he was quiet, he was professional, he was never animated, never celebrated, always respectful to the umpires - he never even got a single suspension in his entire career (unheard of for key forwards of that era who would "clear a path" so that no one ever sat in the hole). He even had a boring hair cut for most of his career.

Not saying he was never methodical in his approach but I think a lot of the 'boring' narrative was born out of the above moreso than capability or even play style. He did impressive and even spectacular things on the regular - certainly as much as Dermie who no-one thought was boring. he just wasn't a watchable 'character' of the game in the same way Dermie and all the others were. Now people conflate the boring narrative with the idea that he didn't or even couldn't take great marks and kick great goals but the truth is he did it on the regular.

 

[Cyclops]

I know that some had that view and it's always irked me.

As you'll no doubt remember, key forwards of that era had "big personalities". Mark Jackson would have massive dummy spits all the time, was in the ads and was "box office controversial viewing". Capper had the big died mullet, the strut, was in the social pages/back pages every week, making "music", etc. Dermott was similar - the big strut, the died mullet, the haymakers, running through huddles, stirring the opposition, big mouth, etc. This was common of most of the key forward of the time, they were egotistical, they'd smash blokes, they'd lose it at the umps, etc.

Dunstall was not like that whatsoever - he shied away from the media, he was quiet, he was professional, he was never animated, never celebrated, always respectful to the umpires - he never even got a single suspension in his entire career (unheard of for key forwards of that era who would "clear a path" so that no one ever sat in the hole). He even had a boring hair cut for most of his career.

Not saying he was never methodical in his approach but I think a lot of the 'boring' narrative was born out of the above moreso than capability or even play style. He did impressive and even spectacular things on the regular - certainly as much as Dermie who no-one thought was boring. he just wasn't a watchable 'character' of the game in the same way Dermie and all the others were. Now people conflate the boring narrative with the idea that he didn't or even couldn't take great marks and kick great goals but the truth is he did it on the regular.

Yeah I completely agree.

I'm using "boring" as shorthand for "not recognised widely at the time" and thats 100% true.

Dunstall's personality is actually a bit irritating, certainly not charismatic. He is bluntly honest, so he doesn't lie to protect peoples feelings, so the boys club were slow to promote him.

Brutus Beefcake was always more popular, with the big hair and the spectacular violence, and tried ridiculous things. During the 80's I think the question of who was better was rarely even asked, so great the disparity seemed.

The fact Dunstall didn't go for the God play every time but did the percentage thing did give rise to his amazing performances being somehow downgraded, but at Collingwood we knew exactly how good he was because we rarely double teamed the ff, so Dunstall feasted on our backline. We had answers for Brereton (we used Mick Gayfer who just cuddled him for the whole game, holding was allowed back then) PC, Abbott, most of the hawk talls, but never Dunstall.

With time Dunstall has been acknowledged as the second best ff of his era, and top 5 all time. Romantics serve up Coleman and Hudson, who were both amazing but got injured. Dunstall has both covered easily, you don't need to extrapolate how good he could have been, he was actually that good before and after serious injuries, in good teams and bad ones.

You get a bonus to your legendariness if you razzle dazzled. Capper was not in Dunstall's class but if you went by 80's media reports he was the GOAT.

 

[Chip Scab1]

I know that some had that view and it's always irked me.

As you'll no doubt remember, key forwards of that era had "big personalities". Mark Jackson would have massive dummy spits all the time, was in the ads and was "box office controversial viewing". Capper had the big died mullet, the strut, was in the social pages/back pages every week, making "music", etc. Dermott was similar - the big strut, the died mullet, the haymakers, running through huddles, stirring the opposition, big mouth, etc. This was common of most of the key forward of the time, they were egotistical, they'd smash blokes, they'd lose it at the umps, etc.

Dunstall was not like that whatsoever - he shied away from the media, he was quiet, he was professional, he was never animated, never celebrated, always respectful to the umpires - he never even got a single suspension in his entire career (unheard of for key forwards of that era who would "clear a path" so that no one ever sat in the hole). He even had a boring hair cut for most of his career.

Not saying he was never methodical in his approach but I think a lot of the 'boring' narrative was born out of the above moreso than capability or even play style. He did impressive and even spectacular things on the regular - certainly as much as Dermie who no-one thought was boring. he just wasn't a watchable 'character' of the game in the same way Dermie and all the others were. Now people conflate the boring narrative with the idea that he didn't or even couldn't take great marks and kick great goals but the truth is he did it on the regular.

This is great analysis.

I've often referred to him as the Nick Faldo of Footy.

An absolute gun player.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

This is great analysis.

I've often referred to him as the Nick Faldo of Footy.

An absolute gun player.

I don't know golf super well so I can't make that comparison. Sometimnes when explaining it to people who didn't watch the 80's and early 90's, I make another football comparison which is far from perfect but helps convey the kind of summative and reductive way we can remember players sometimes.

When people think of Matty Lloyd - they usually remember a kind of soft, boring full forward who just got the job done. If you ask about Brendan Fevola - they remember a crazy talented, spectacular player that could have been anything.

Like Dunstall, Lloyd had a boring haircut, fairly muted on field celebrations and had little off field controversy in his career (a few unsavoury on field incidents though). Fevola was a walking headline with repeated off field incidents and massive celebrations that made him more "watchable". What people forget is that Lloyd won mark of the year a couple of times, goal of the year, etc. He certainly could take a specky and kick a great goal. Fevola would and did do the same. Was it more regularly than Lloyd? - arguably, but probably not (maybe a yes for goals and no for marks). Their ability and regularity in doing the spectacular was probably not as far apart as people remember - just the personality and character sways their (kind of reductive) view.

It was kind of the same, but to a much higher degree, for Dunstall. He would take great marks, pack marks, wrestling marks, speckies, etc all the time. He'd kick miracle goals from the boundary, over his head, baulk through multiple players, etc regularly also. He was just a more boring guy off the field, especially compared to the key forwards of his era who were a different breed of 'outgoing peacocks' (in the nicest possible way). In support of the idea that isn't simply bias - people often remember Dermie as the more spectacular player of the two but it wasn't close to being true - Dunstall did way more of the jaw dropping plays but Dermie (who was obviously a great player in his own right) has the reputation cos he was the more 'controversial' and therefore 'watchable' of the two (with big biffs and square ups, words between players, strutting around, the big hair, etc). Watching Dunstall's highlight reels tells a similar story (it's just harder to convey how often it was).

 

[Chip Scab1]

I don't know golf super well so I can't make that comparison. Sometimnes when explaining it to people who didn't watch the 80's and early 90's, I make another football comparison which is far from perfect but helps convey the kind of summative and reductive way we can remember players sometimes.

When people think of Matty Lloyd - they usually remember a kind of soft, boring full forward who just got the job done. If you ask about Brendan Fevola - they remember a crazy talented, spectacular player that could have been anything.

Like Dunstall, Lloyd had a boring haircut, fairly muted on field celebrations and had little off field controversy in his career (a few unsavoury on field incidents though). Fevola was a walking headline with repeated off field incidents and massive celebrations that made him more "watchable". What people forget is that Lloyd won mark of the year a couple of times, goal of the year, etc. He certainly could take a specky and kick a great goal. Fevola would and did do the same. Was it more regularly than Lloyd? - arguably, but probably not (maybe a yes for goals and no for marks). Their ability and regularity in doing the spectacular was probably not as far apart as people remember - just the personality and character sways their (kind of reductive) view.

It was kind of the same, but to a much higher degree, for Dunstall. He would take great marks, pack marks, wrestling marks, speckies, etc all the time. He'd kick miracle goals from the boundary, over his head, baulk through multiple players, etc regularly also. He was just a more boring guy off the field, especially compared to the key forwards of his era who were a different breed of 'outgoing peacocks' (in the nicest possible way). In support of the idea that isn't simply bias - people often remember Dermie as the more spectacular player of the two but it wasn't close to being true - Dunstall did way more of the jaw dropping plays but Dermie (who was obviously a great player in his own right) has the reputation cos he was the more 'controversial' and therefore 'watchable' of the two (with big biffs and square ups, words between players, strutting around, the big hair, etc). Watching Dunstall's highlight reels tells a similar story (it's just harder to convey how often it was).

Carey rated Dunstall as the best he'd seen and copied him a bit - that's all you need to know!!

 

[stfan]

Lockett was definitely not versatile, a half in a SOO game and some forward ruckwork maybe? There's a video on Reddit for some h&a game where he takes a centre bounce.

He was a barrel of guts from the start and was often puffing, his cheeks would ho quite red, didn't matter. Still the best FF. He had a very quick first couple of steps, iron trap hands and deep footy knowledge for bodywork. I guess 6 3 is almost ruck size but he was never agile

You clearly did not get to many games. Lockett was extremely quick on the burst, and so often led. He was also quite agile for a tall and could kick crumbing goals.

He was also exceptional smart and knew how and when to use his strong and bulky body to full advantage.

and didn't have a giant leap either.

Lockett cold leap if he had too. But his gameplan was more on leading and out bodying.

The other aspect about Lockett was the number of games that he would have 2 or more opponents dedicated to trying to limit his influence.

 

[Chip Scab1]

He also rated Robert Harvey and Chris Judd well ahead of Gary Ablett so that's all you need to know.

Jr? As do I.

Sr? No, I don't rate anyone ahead of Sr. Not even Lethal or Wayne.

 

[Cyclops]

You clearly did not get to many games. Lockett was extremely quick on the burst, and so often led. He was also quite agile for a tall and could kick crumbing goals.

He was also exceptional smart and knew how and when to use his strong and bulky body to full advantage.


Lockett cold leap if he had too. But his gameplan was more on leading and out bodying.

The other aspect about Lockett was the number of games that he would have 2 or more opponents dedicated to trying to limit his influence.
View attachment 2389506
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...that last picture is a chest mark with his knees at waist height...

You're entitled to your opinion. I saw the bloke play and he didn't fly much. The top image is surprisingly high, a real Jezza.

Not versatile though. Too unfit.

As for the double team, too right, more than almost any player I've seen. Triple teamed, too sometimes. They'd let Loewe (arguably an even better mark, as he actually did jump a bit) go one on one because he wasn't as deadly a kick, and like Lockett it didn't even slow him down that much.

We used to leave Plugger one out, often on Ron Mckeon. Ronnie was immensely strong, a brilliant one grab mark and very crafty footy brain, usually held Locket to 6 or 7. Sadly Ron was injury prone, had screws in his foot that got infected every game or so. A genuine coodabeen, and at his best he was our best match up for Lockett.

Famously Damien Monkhorst (aged about 19) goaded Lockett, Monkey perhaps wasn't smart enough to appreciate the danger. Said something rude about greyhounds, Plugger lost it.

That was part of the "unprofessional" knock, he'd lose it from time to time and knock some bloke out. Had plenty of provocation though

Monkey lived, had an incredibly hard head.

 

[MadMaxx]

Jr? As do I.

Sr? No, I don't rate anyone ahead of Sr. Not even Lethal or Wayne.

Hubris.

If Ablett was so great, how did he walk away with Zero Flags?

Not like he played in shit sides. They were awesome.

The true greats, drag the club over the line when needed.

Don't lets confuse Spectacular with great.

 

[Cyclops]

Hubris.

If Ablett was so great, how did he walk away with Zero Flags?

Not like he played in shit sides. They were awesome.

The true greats, drag the club over the line when needed.

Don't lets confuse Spectacular with great.

As a neutral,, GaS was an evil selfish man, but the GOAT footballer. Stronger faster better, even allowing for his unprofessional aspects.

There's lots of ways to measure the best, but flags won is about as silly as it gets, it puts Shane Kerrison above Bobby Skilton.

In 1989 he kicked 9.1, and after being knocked cold by Ayres he broke Dipper. "Didn't do enough"?

 

[Chip Scab1]

Hubris.

If Ablett was so great, how did he walk away with Zero Flags?

Not like he played in shit sides. They were awesome.

The true greats, drag the club over the line when needed.

Don't lets confuse Spectacular with great.

Maybe true. But as a young man the 4 who stood out;

Lockett was a beast
Carey was simply the best
Lethal (highlights only, I dunno but his record means he's here)
Ablett - still can't believe the shit he did onfield. The best highlights ever. Not up for debate.

Lockett at Moorabin (unstoppable)
Carey always had min 2 opponents plus a ruck dropping back
Lethal has the most amazing record and super hard
Ablett - ditto

Hubris schmubris, I am 42, i'm able to remember these players pretty well.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

All the top 4 you rave about were playing one out with the entire 50 to themselves.

Can you imagine what Buddy would have done with “Pagans paddock” for his whole career.

It would have been frightening.

Could you imagine what Ablett would have done as a permanent ff for his whole career?

 

[Iridescence]

No Tony Modra?

 

[Yellow Feathers]

Dunstall

 

[MadMaxx]

As a neutral,, GaS was an evil selfish man, but the GOAT footballer. Stronger faster better, even allowing for his unprofessional aspects.

There's lots of ways to measure the best, but flags won is about as silly as it gets, it puts Shane Kerrison above Bobby Skilton.

In 1989 he kicked 9.1, and after being knocked cold by Ayres he broke Dipper. "Didn't do enough"?

I disagree to a point. Performace on the biggest stage of all surely has a huge factor in this discussion. I am happy to give plugger a but of leeway here, as he played in such bog average teams at St Kilda. But the others all made plently of Grannies.

Re Gaz Snr, 1989 Was a pretty special Game for him, Almost dragged the cats home
15 Dispoals, 8 Marks, 9 Goals, 3 Tackles

It is where the Ablett Legend was made in reality


But if you are going to be goatíng the bloke, lets have a look at the other three grannies he fronted up for.

1992 - 17 Disposals, 4 Marks 3 Goals, 2 Tackles
1994 - 5 Disposals, 1 mark, 1 Goal, 0 Tackles
1995 - 11 Disposals, 2 Marks, 0 Goals, 0 Tackles

Nothing too special there to be honest. And like I said before, he was playing in really good teams.


Useless stat for you: Across his career, Jack Gunston has kicked 12 goals in four Grand Finals and Gaz Snr 13..

And Dunstall Kicked 23 in 5 GF's

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

Frankly, the last 3 aren't fit to lace the boots of the first 4.
And that is no slight on them as players, all gun footballers in their own right.

 

[Chip Scab1]

Could you imagine what Ablett would have done as a permanent ff for his whole career?

Carey played 1 quarter as on-baller (the 3rd in '99 GF), had ~7 at 100% and Norf kicked 6 goals.

I disagree to a point. Performace on the biggest stage of all surely has a huge factor in this discussion. I am happy to give plugger a but of leeway here, as he played in such bog average teams at St Kilda. But the others all made plently of Grannies.

Re Gaz Snr, 1989 Was a pretty special Game for him, Almost dragged the cats home
15 Dispoals, 8 Marks, 9 Goals, 3 Tackles

It is where the Ablett Legend was made in reality


But if you are going to be goatíng the bloke, lets have a look at the other three grannies he fronted up for.

1992 - 17 Disposals, 4 Marks 3 Goals, 2 Tackles
1994 - 5 Disposals, 1 mark, 1 Goal, 0 Tackles
1995 - 11 Disposals, 2 Marks, 0 Goals, 0 Tackles

Nothing too special there to be honest. And like I said before, he was playing in really good teams.


Useless stat for you: Across his career, Jack Gunston has kicked 12 goals in four Grand Finals and Gaz Snr 13..

And Dunstall Kicked 23 in 5 GF's

Ablett was 30+ for most of those. It was Abl not Ablett, bit harsh to grade him based games as a senior citizen.