List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion

[davemc_lions]

Problem I have with free agency is the club that get them gives up nothing but $ and a list spot.
I know we linked to Allen and Draper.
Although I really do not think it fair we pick both up and Annable after winning the 2024/25 Grand Finals

Pies and Cats topping up all the time
Hawks as well.
You can understand where the saints complaining. Although they drafted badly.. same eagles.

I understand players who in crap sides want out before they too old.
Although I do think the team getting them needs to give up something.
I prefer you had to either trade for a FA or give up a pick or slide back picks

 

[briztoon]

I'm not shedding a tear for West Coast.

They've shot themselves in the foot just as much as the Saints have with taking McCartin and Billings over Petracca and Bontempelli.

West Coast's debacle in the handling of the Tim Kelly trade, IMO, their wrong decision to draft Reid when they would have got close to 2-3 high end first round picks and / or players if they'd have traded that pick one and then got Dan Curtin, who is better anyway and you could go on.

I believe you missed my point. It wasn't about West Coast.

Every club has f*cked up trades and draft selections (not that I believe drafting Reid was a mistake).

My example could be any team. It could be us, without access to father son and academy talent.

Teams at the bottom of the ladder face a much harder time rebuilding primarily through the draft, in the current era of increased numbers of high end father sons, northern and nga academies. Especially if those teams have very few expendable, tradeable assets to bring in extra high end picks.

And it's compounded when 3 or 4 or 5 top eight teams are locked in to the top 8 for an extended period of time.

Geelong and Collingwood could be there on trade ins and free agents. We could be locked in to a top 8 spot for another decade on the back of our current father sons and academy kids. Same with Gold Coast.

Adelaide could become the SA version of Geelong. Talk over last weekend was that NWM wanted to play with his mates at Port, but didn't want to play for a losing team. He was willing to consider Adelaide, but they don't have the picks (or a player potentially leaving) to get a trade done. So he signed a short term deal with St Kilda, that allows him to reassess Port in 2 years time.

What hope does that give rebuilding clubs (and their fans) if there's really only 3 top 8 positions on offer every year, due to commercial (Geelong & Collingwood) or manufactured (northern academies) reasons.

I'm all for non-Vic clubs, but the f/s and academies is so reactionary BS all b/c Pies landed Daicos, Lions got the Ashcroft boys and Fletch and the Suns had ONE good academy haul in the one year and now, despite, clubs having to pay fair price, they want to change it and that doesn't even factor in the amount of soft Vic metro players that tell recruiters they want to stay home with Mummy, tantamount to draft tampering, but yet nothing is said about.

And why is it fair that the northern clubs get one less home game to WA / SA clubs and why do some Vic clubs only travel four times when the AFL if we're taklking fair could easily manipulate the draw wo all Vic clubs travel a minimum 7-8 times per year?

 

[briztoon]

Problem I have with free agency is the club that get them gives up nothing but $ and a list spot.
I know we linked to Allen and Draper.
Although I really do not think it fair we pick both up and Annable after winning the 2024/25 Grand Finals

Pies and Cats topping up all the time
Hawks as well.
You can understand where the saints complaining. Although they drafted badly.. same eagles.

I understand players who in crap sides want out before they too old.
Although I do think the team getting them needs to give up something.
I prefer you had to either trade for a FA or give up a pick or slide back picks

I don't have a problem with free agency.

I have issues with compensation picks. Why do they exist? Jut bin them.

If a player has spent 8 years at a club, they should be able to choose their destiny after that. However clubs need greater protections, so as not to loose a quality kid at the end of that players first contract.

But clubs should be smarter. If a player hasn't re-signed by the end of his 7th year, trade them. Create an auction.

 

[SizeMatters]

Caro said on Agenda Setters earlier that whatever meeting had with all club representatives today that as of next year, Father / Son and Academy selections will be abolished from the first round of the draft.

What an over-reaction. I mean, provided clubs pay up, why get rid of them. I honestly can't believe the AFL has fallen for St Kilda's whingeing.

Swanns off to a great start - excuse my sarcasm.

I'm not completely against it, but would rather they just get rid of these dumb discounts all together. Having first right of refusal for any talent is an incentive enough. IMO.

However, the Vic clubs still (and probably always will) have a distinct advantage to recruiting and maintaining talent. The counter argument to that is there are 8 clubs vying for said talent.

AFL needs to come down hard on out of salary cap perks and payments. Including dodgy family jobs, or property deals. A portion of that should certainly be counted within the salary cap.

 

[davemc_lions]

Northern academy I can understand they do not have the higher standard local comps.
NGA is a joke. Some kid playing for Bushrangers should not be a NGA as his mum was born O/S and his dad played AFL or whatever.

I like something to help get more indigenous players like extra rookie spots or something. Yes be abused although been a drop off recently. Now less spots I think teams just not want to take a chance on some players.

With Father Sons I just think teams should pay a fair price.
Not trade out a first round for picks.. Be forced to use that first round pick.

On the flip side think something should be done about VFL bias and fix the fixture.
No guaranteed double games like Q clash, Derby etc
Once Tassie starts it evens up you play 18 games each team once a year.
Then the last 6 games you play different teams each year over 3 years.
So over 3 years you play 4 matches against each team
Two at home and two away.
Yes it takes 3 years to even out although look at us against the Hawks. This is our second home game in how many years

 

[davemc_lions]

AFL needs to come down hard on out of salary cap perks and payments. Including dodgy family jobs, or property deals. A portion of that should certainly be counted within the salary cap.

They should Cotton On to it So many rumours
So many rumours of hiding players as well in draft year as well

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Like Tom said, Geelong are the real insidious ones in this. They’ve won multiple flags off the back of having the most games played by FS. They then want to kick the ladder out when it’s clear they won’t be benefiting anymore.

I’m shocked, not Geelong, such a wholesome, fair, level headed bunch. Chris Scott would be even more smug than he is now if that’s possible. I want him wiped from all Brisbane Lions history, just an arrogance flog.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Fo those who think we getting a bit too much of a leg up these days, just remember we were horrendous for 20 years before getting to this point. No one cared when strong clubs were handing over nothing for our better players and early picks. Make hay as they say.

 

[braddsey]

Fo those who think we getting a bit too much of a leg up these days, just remember we were horrendous for 20 years before getting to this point. No one cared when strong clubs were handing over nothing for our better players and early picks. Make hay as they say.

We were horrendous from 2010 to 2017. 2006-2009 was post 3-peat decline. 2018-2025 - nothing to complain about!
What has tipped public opinion against us is our F/S pickups. Without Ashcroft/Fletcher/Ashcroft, I think there wouldn't be the same complaints about our academy.

 

[briztoon]

I don’t know the numbers in recent or say the past twenty years of drafts but to me, isn’t it an anomaly in recent years of having such high end father son and academy players that are being taken in the first round that it is clouding the AFLs judgements and causing this typical reactionary knee jerk crap from the VFL?

I don't believe the growing number of better father son talents is an anomaly. I believe it's a concentration of better genetics. I have no idea what previous generations were like, but you look a lot of players from the late 90's and early 2000's and it appears quite a few started marrying other sporting stars, or models.

And then you read all the recent draft stories of Vic kids who are third generation AFL prospects, after their grandad played for Collingwood, and dad played for Carlton, etc. They might not be father son kids, but they've got 3 generations of AFL families in the lineage.

Added to this, better pathways and coaching.

 

[braddsey]

I would normally lurk, but I am curious to see the thoughts of how y’all end up bidding on Annable? You’re rocking about 1700 points before compensations are added which will dilute that number by a hefty amount given 3 comps are likely first round. Will it be trading out guys like Ah Chee and Starcevich etc and just saying yep that’s fine we’ll take this one dude. Or is it going into deficit or? Curious.

Purposefully scrolled past the shade at west coast as I’m not here to argue about anything, simply curious to see what the consensus is there. I personally want us to bid on Annable at 1 or 2 completely unrelated to you guys, think he’s a weapon.

Here's plan-A:
1. Sign Oscar Allen as FA and pay enough to generate band-1 compo, in exchange for WC not bidding on Annable. WC end up with picks 1,2.
2. Convince Richmond that they did so well selecting the players they wanted in 2024 rather than wasting time bidding on academy selections. Richmond use their picks at 3,4.
3. Sign Sam Draper as FA and pay enough to generate band-1 compo, in exchange for Essendon not bidding on Annable. Essendon use their picks at 5,6,7.
4. Gold Coast won't bid on our academy player. Northern clubs don't do this to each other. GC use their pick at 8.
5. Hawthorn bid at pick-9 because they're bitter we smashed them in round-24.
Pick-9 = 1355 - 10% = 1220 points. No problem, we got it covered.

 

[braddsey]

I would normally lurk, but I am curious to see the thoughts of how y’all end up bidding on Annable? You’re rocking about 1700 points before compensations are added which will dilute that number by a hefty amount given 3 comps are likely first round. Will it be trading out guys like Ah Chee and Starcevich etc and just saying yep that’s fine we’ll take this one dude. Or is it going into deficit or? Curious.

Purposefully scrolled past the shade at west coast as I’m not here to argue about anything, simply curious to see what the consensus is there. I personally want us to bid on Annable at 1 or 2 completely unrelated to you guys, think he’s a weapon.

Here's Plan-B:
1. We don't pay Oscar Allen enough for band-1 compo, but WC still want their pick-1 to get the $10K sign-on bonus so don't bid on Annable.
2. North Melbourne are desperate to get back into round-1 so they can sell the message to their fans that they got another pick-1 on their books, after coughing up their own 2025 round-1 pick for 2024 pick-27. Clearly they are shit at this pick trading thing.
3. North agree to trade their pick-20 & pick-21 (round-2) for our pick-18 (round-1), plus our 62,72.
4. We take 20,21,37,40,46,47 to the draft = 2265 points.
5. Richmond decide to stick it to us and bid on Annable at pick-2 because he's a gun.
Pick-2 = 2481 - 10% = 2232 points. No problem, we got it covered.

 

[M Malice]

With the almost certain adoption of new ruck rules in 2026 rucks will need to be more athletic/quick around the ground, so unlike Henry Smith, Fort, the Big O.

If we don't get Sam Draper are there any other rucks that we could target at this late stage?

Looking at the list of OOC players these are the ruckman who are OOC - Nick Bryan, Max Knobel, Max Heath, Peter Ladhams

19

Peter Ladhams

Age

28

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.8

5star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

21.0

5star

K

9.0

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.4

3star

. Have only seen snippets of them, Ladhams NO! I don't mind the look of Heath from the little I have seen.

Could ZZ be that athletic ruckman? Could a failed KPF somewhere in the competition be converted into an athletic/quick ruck?

 

[MSB ROYS]

I don't believe the growing number of better father son talents is an anomaly. I believe it's a concentration of better genetics. I have no idea what previous generations were like, but you look a lot of players from the late 90's and early 2000's and it appears quite a few started marrying other sporting stars, or models.

And then you read all the recent draft stories of Vic kids who are third generation AFL prospects, after their grandad played for Collingwood, and dad played for Carlton, etc. They might not be father son kids, but they've got 3 generations of AFL families in the lineage.

Added to this, better pathways and coaching.

Agree, it is also a well paid industry that if you're good can and not a total dick can last for years. The average salary of over 500K is more than most CEOs and CFOs of midsized companies, which can take many years to get to.

Also, when I went to school (quite awhile ago), school football at APS schools was just taken as is except for a couple of Melbourne schools. No gyms, specialist coaches, scholarships etc. If you wanted to get into the VFL at Geelong the best path was to try and get into the U19s team or play for a strong GFL team. Now these schools have everything on tap just like an academy and bringing talented players in from around Australia to board. Perhaps each Melbourne club can adopt a school (joke!).

 

[Elixuh]

They were taken under the old (old old) "just use a third rounder" rule. Hawkins was definitely rated a top three talent in his year. Gary less so, Nathan was polarising - some considered him a top 15 prospect, others outside the top 30, but still substantially higher than 49.

Didn't realise that, there you go.

 

[GenericUsername202]

Gettable said the afl are floating the idea of a lockout period, where you can’t match a bid before a certain pick. Twoomey said he expects backlash from certain clubs if this goes through. If this goes through, the lions should threaten the afl to close their academy. What’s the point of spending millions if we can’t even draft them anymore? I understand paying fairly, but it’s amazing this shit changed the moment Greg Swann joined afl house. Some traitor he proved to be.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

How can they make decision like that so quickly.? What if a kid like Annabel or a Melbourne based kid for that matter had set their life up knowing where they are going. Might have looked at buying a house, got a girlfriend knowing they are going to be around, started a course/study, moved to an location that will
suit next year things of that nature. You can’t just pull the rug out a couple of months out. I’m sure the Lions have told Annabel ‘we will be drafting you- we will make it happen, no matter what’.

 

[GenericUsername202]

How can they make decision like that so quickly.? What if a kid like Annabel or a Melbourne based kid for that matter had set their life up knowing where they are going. Might have looked at buying a house, got a girlfriend knowing they are going to be around, started a course/study, moved to an location that will
suit next year things of that nature. You can’t just pull the rug out a couple of months out. I’m sure the Lions have told Annabel ‘we will be drafting you- we will make it happen, no matter what’.

Fortunately it's not for this year, rather from 2026 onwards. The problem is, what incentives does the lions have to keep the academy if the AFL blocks us from matching a top 20 pick? Why on earth would we spend millions, develop these relationships only to send the player away to a Victorian club? Seems completely backwards and I simply think the backlash would be too big that i'm unsure it'll even go through in the first place. It's one thing to make us pay a fair price for these players, but if this goes through, we wouldn't even be able to match any top player at all. Even with our first pick.

 

[M Malice]

Are the same unable to match 1st round talent rule going to apply to the NGAs as well? I'll be all for the torches and pitchforks if not.

 

[p4p1]

Are the same unable to match 1st round talent rule going to apply to the NGAs as well? I'll be all for the torches and pitchforks if not.

It would have to apply to F/S as well.
It's funny that there is all this academy talk when the actual young stars of the competition are almost exclusively F/S pickups.

 

[SizeMatters]

Get rid of discounts….. easy fix and far more equitable. right of first refusal is enough incentive.

 

[SizeMatters]

How can they make decision like that so quickly.? What if a kid like Annabel or a Melbourne based kid for that matter had set their life up knowing where they are going. Might have looked at buying a house, got a girlfriend knowing they are going to be around, started a course/study, moved to an location that will
suit next year things of that nature. You can’t just pull the rug out a couple of months out. I’m sure the Lions have told Annabel ‘we will be drafting you- we will make it happen, no matter what’.

Opens up draft tampering and hiding talents.

 

[p4p1]

I don't believe the growing number of better father son talents is an anomaly. I believe it's a concentration of better genetics. I have no idea what previous generations were like, but you look a lot of players from the late 90's and early 2000's and it appears quite a few started marrying other sporting stars, or models.

And then you read all the recent draft stories of Vic kids who are third generation AFL prospects, after their grandad played for Collingwood, and dad played for Carlton, etc. They might not be father son kids, but they've got 3 generations of AFL families in the lineage.

Added to this, better pathways and coaching.

I've been listening to the BT podcast lately. From the start and trying to catch up the whole way through it but the thing that, maybe not surprised me but became really clear is how interconnected heaps of footballing families are. None of BT's kids played AFL but one of his sons is best mates with Dion Prestia and Tom Sheridan. James Rowebottom is his nephew.
During one story, the spoke about how Wayne Schimmelbusch used to come down and the Taylor clan and some of their mates (Dion and Tom were included) for fitness training.

There is obviously families that have more relatives and close family friends who make AFL. Genetics dictate whether you have the ability to play elite sports and mental strength dictates whether you actually do.

I just quickly looked up the Ablett family, because they're arguably the greatest multi-generation name in football.
Fred Ablett - 56 games WAFL 1906-1910. Unsure on actual relation.
Alf Williamson - 19 games VFL - 1912-1914 (KIA during WW1, he may have played more games). GAS' great uncle.
Len Ablett - 70 games VFL 1939-1943. Richmond Premiership player. GAS' uncle.
Geoff Ablett - 229 games VFL 1973-1985. Hawthorn Premiership player. Brother of GAS.
Kevin Ablett - 38 games VFL. Brother of GAS.
That generation of Abletts had 7 boys who plays footy at AFL or VFL level.

SOS
Dustin Fletcher.
Luke Darcy
Ben Cousins
Richo
All from the 80s-90s

I could only find stats from 86 onwards for the competition as a whole but as an example:
This list from https://blueseum.org/Father-Sons has father son combos that predate the rule and has players from every decade 1900-1909.

There is still more AFL F/S hopefuls that don't make it or if they do, don't become stars of the competition.

I don't think the current class is particularly abnormal. Father-sons who were amongst the best players of their era during the same time, or premiership players.
Ash McIntosh.
Fletcher, Darcy and Richardson were all drafted in 1992.
Joel Bowden & Ben Cousins in 1995.
Lance Whitnall in 1996.
Matthew Scartlett in 1997.
Browny and Rhys Shaw in 1999.

What is happening at the moment with F/S doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary.

 

[Perrip]

The Amazing Zorko pulls another year out of the hat

Brisbane's champion veteran has extended for another season ahead of his 300th game

www.afl.com.au

 

[BuntonRules]

Get rid of discounts….. easy fix and far more equitable. right of first refusal is enough incentive.

This. And top 4 clubs can only take 1 first round f/s or academy each year. Top 8 - 2.

I know many will bring up lots of arguments, but, as far as we are concerned, finals 7 years in a row and 2 grannies with a flag- the Lions do not need help.

Look at the gap between the top and bottom of the ladder this year. The AFL has to address this issue.

We all want an even competition. Every club's fans should have the right to feel that a flag is possible sometime soon.

All of this after we get Annabelle, of course