Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Proffessor]

Yes, our defenders are metres from their opponents a lot of the time, but we also lose multiple 1on1s (I think the stat I heard on TripleM was that we are the worst in the league in defensive 1on1s - worse than West Coast!?).

I think a top key defender would make a world of difference - I mean we only need to look back to the impact Liam Jones was having on our overall defence 2 years ago. His drop off, JOD being very inconsistent, Bus being nowhere near ready (may never be), and Lobb also now seemingly also losing a yard is costing us dearly. Even a slight upgrade or two to players who can play the structure a touch better and defend 1on1 when required would be a god-send.


I provided a list of key defenders that took ages to come on a few weeks ago.

I won't go over all of them, but if you think of Sam Collins, you have to imagine how terrible he would have looked, to, after years of development at Freo, be considered in the bottom 3 (35-38) players on the list and be delisted? How little (zero) faith they had in him coming on to be a decent player?

And this is not to say that I'm not worried about Bus. He has so much to work on and still a very long way to go, I'm struggling to think of anyone else in the league so similarly laconic who steps up in finals.

But year one was a write off which has set him back massively. With another pre-season and another year of learning/development, he should hopefully be dominating VFL by the end of next year. Dominating the next level down at 21-22-23 is a similar development arc that many late blooming key defenders have followed (Sam Collins, Dale Morris, Tom Stewart, Callum Wilkie, Dane Rampe, Joel Hamling). As some see Busslinger today, many of these guys weren't even deemed to be good enough to be on an AFL list at all (either delisted or never drafted) before their rapid upswings.

There are some big differences between Buss and those late bloomers you are comparing him with.

Firstly, he was a first-round draft pick, so can hardly be called a late bloomer, it's more a stalled\plateaued development arc, which is a much more common phenomenon.

Secondly, most of those late blooming key defenders had some key elite characteristics that they could employ to set them apart at AFL level, e.g. strength, size, speed, agility, mental discipline, endurance, etc.

What outstanding characteristics are we currently seeing with Buss, that might enable him to bridge the gap from his current level of performance to a level that would not only allow him to compete with but actually beat elite AFL forwards?

I'd love to see a rapid upswing in his performance, but he needs to show something asap, preferably it should have been demonstrated by yesterday. Now who knows if he will get another chance.

 

[Proffessor]

I know a bit of it is venting, but the completely writing off of Buss pisses me off a bit. He's a developing 21 year old KPD who is still growing into his body and missed a lot of his first AFL season with his shoulder injury. We've been spoiled by our talls coming on so quickly of recent times, these guys often take 3-4 years before they start playing senior footy regularly and then further develop from there. He showed some good signs this year at times and I think there's still plenty of development left in him.

I think there are a few reasons why Buss is copping a bit of flack.

Firstly, he was a first-round draft pick, and they are expected to develop quickly, not be long term development projects. That is what the rookie draft is for.
Secondly, Lobb and JOD, had down days yesterday but otherwise had pretty good years overall, particularly Lobb who saved us on many occasions during the season.
When your top guys are having an off day, that is when the next tier guys really need to step up and genuinely earn their paycheck, by filling the breach. He didn't\couldn't.

Thirdly, he has been in the system a while now and supporter patience isn't infinite. He needs to show some genuine signs that he might be worth the wait asap, or what is left of that patience could run out very quickly.

 

[grassman75]

I’d have a crack.

Wonder if we’ve arsed about his availability yet?

 

[Doggy]

Wonder if we’ve arsed about his availability yet?

It just blew hot air

 

[Mofra]

Jordan Butts is exactly the depth from other clubs we need to bring in.

RFA in 2026.
Worth chasing as a pre-agent.

Shepparton boy. The last KPD we stole from the Crows was also a Shepparton boy.

 

[Doggy Dan]

More likely when his desired club isn’t in finals anymore, you’d think. But of a distraction.

Hawks did it with Barrass and Battle just last year.

 

[Ash1337]

Hawks did it with Barrass and Battle just last year.

It's more likely he hasn't decided yet then. He only had a medical with Dogs last week by reports.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

There are some big differences between Buss and those late bloomers you are comparing him with.

Firstly, he was a first-round draft pick, so can hardly be called a late bloomer, it's more a stalled\plateaued development arc, which is a much more common phenomenon.

Secondly, most of those late blooming key defenders had some key elite characteristics that they could employ to set them apart at AFL level, e.g. strength, size, speed, agility, mental discipline, endurance, etc.

What outstanding characteristics are we currently seeing with Buss, that might enable him to bridge the gap from his current level of performance to a level that would not only allow him to compete with but actually beat elite AFL forwards?

I'd love to see a rapid upswing in his performance, but he needs to show something asap, preferably it should have been demonstrated by yesterday. Now who knows if he will get another chance.

Let's see after a solid preseason. I'm not that impressed either, as yet. He doesn't seem that switched on.

 

[Doggies7]

I think there are a few reasons why Buss is copping a bit of flack.

Firstly, he was a first-round draft pick, and they are expected to develop quickly, not be long term development projects. That is what the rookie draft is for.
Secondly, Lobb and JOD, had down days yesterday but otherwise had pretty good years overall, particularly Lobb who saved us on many occasions during the season.
When your top guys are having an off day, that is when the next tier guys really need to step up and genuinely earn their paycheck, by filling the breach. He didn't\couldn't.

Thirdly, he has been in the system a while now and supporter patience isn't infinite. He needs to show some genuine signs that he might be worth the wait asap, or what is left of that patience could run out very quickly.

First round picks can and are still absolutely projects a lot of the time. You draft a KPD for who they can be at 24,25,26, not 21.

He has shown some genuine signs that he might be worth the wait. Had some very good games at VFL level and pushed through to earn his place in the side over a few others and play 5 straight games, 7 for the year. In the last 5 games he had some really nice patches and didn't look much worse than JOD really.

 

[Bulldogs85]

Hawks did it with Barrass and Battle just last year.

Oscar Allen news dropped yesterday about him wanting to join Brisbane

 

[Doggies7]

Everyone loves Tom Barrass

37

Tom Barrass

Age

30

Ht

197cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

8.8

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

6.1

5star

T

0.9

3star

MG

158.5

3star

D

10.1

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.1

2star

M

5.6

5star

T

0.3

1star

MG

139.6

2star

D

11.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

0.4

3star

MG

160.0

3star

and rightfully so, but what people conveniently forget is he also took time to develop into the player he is. Let's check back his first few years.

Drafted in 2013.
Didn't make his AFL debut until round 17 2015, And played 2 games, got dropped and then came back for one more game that season.
Played a further 9 games in 2016.
Didn't become an AFL regular until 2017 where he played 17 games as a 22 year old.

There's a hundred stories like this for KPPs who don't start playing regular games until 22-23 years old and don't even hit their peak until they are 26-27 years old. You need patience for these guys, especially ones still growing into their bodies like Buss.

 

[Bulldogs85]

Everyone loves Tom Barrass and rightfully so, but what people conveniently forget is he also took time to develop into the player he is. Let's check back his first few years.

Drafted in 2013.
Didn't make his AFL debut until tound 17 2015! And played 2 games, got dropped and then came back for one more game that season.
Played a further 9 games in 2016.
Didn't become an AFL regular until 2017 where he played 17 games as a 22 year old.

There's a hundred stories like this for KPPs who don't start playing regular games until 22-23 years old and don't even hit their peak until they are 26-27 years old. You need patience for these guys, especially ones still growing into their bodies like Buss.

Jeremy McGovern was the some took him a few years before he got going and became a regular in the West Coast side

 

[Bald]

Hawks did it with Barrass and Battle just last year.

Yeah I know, and as previously mentioned with Oscar Allen to Brisbane, but I just think those are exceptions to the rule, though that appears to be changing in recent seasons.

Who knows, find out when we find out I guess.

 

[BrisDog]

Re JUH.

Yes, yes, the dogs have rightly been concerned about his welfare and have done everything possible to rehabilitate him from his ‘issues’ and make sure he is okay as a human being. That goes without saying really.

I also hope the dogs are protecting our club by building a brief on JUH that drops on the AFL’s desk next week.

JUH has not trained in any sufficient manner, has been involved on the periphery as the owner of a car (not his fault, of course) for a couple of drive-by/agg burgs, was next to a gun that went off a metre from him last week at 2:30am in which he lied about the circumstances…..etc etc etc.

He has brought our club into disrepute, despite our clubs preventative measures and has in my opinion brought disrepute to the AFL.

Grow a set Dillon - TEAR DOWN THIS WALL….I mean contract.

 

[Proffessor]

First round picks can and are still absolutely projects a lot of the time. You draft a KPD for who they can be at 24,25,26, not 21.

He has shown some genuine signs that he might be worth the wait. Had some very good games at VFL level and pushed through to earn his place in the side over a few others and play 5 straight games, 7 for the year. In the last 5 games he had some really nice patches and didn't look much worse than JOD really.

As you have just confirmed. Buss is still behind JOD. A preseason recruit who cost us nothing and has not only delivered more but has also shown greater potential.

What happens to his current spot in the queue if we trade for a mature KPD. There are limited spot in the team for such players.

I'm also curious regarding the genuine signs that he has shown that he worth the wait and the investment.

What is his standout strength? Contested or intercept marking? Attacking rebound? Defensive lockdown capability?
Noting he currently doesn't seem to have the size, strength or speed to cut it as a #1or even a #2 KPD.

I think he needs to have a massive preseason and develop some speed, confidence, etc. because it could be his final shot at making it.

 

[Doggies7]

Jeremy McGovern was the some took him a few years before he got going and became a regular in the West Coast side

Yep drafted 2011 and debuted 2014.

 

[Foxman98]

Buss was our highest intercept leader yesterday with 47% TOG

English had more hit outs/clearances/marks then Darcy/Jackson combined he also had the same amount of tackles as both combined

Yes they both had some poor moments no doubt but neither were as bad as being made out here and needing to be moved on

 

[Proffessor]

Everyone loves Tom Barrass and rightfully so, but what people conveniently forget is he also took time to develop into the player he is. Let's check back his first few years.

Drafted in 2013.
Didn't make his AFL debut until tound 17 2015! And played 2 games, got dropped and then came back for one more game that season.
Played a further 9 games in 2016.
Didn't become an AFL regular until 2017 where he played 17 games as a 22 year old.

There's a hundred stories like this for KPPs who don't start playing regular games until 22-23 years old and don't even hit their peak until they are 26-27 years old. You need patience for these guys, especially ones still growing into their bodies like Buss.

Buss, was drafted higher and debuted slower, so he is already showing a slower development than your late bloomer example of Tom Barrass.

Hence it is high time for Buss to get a move on, which is essentially my point.

 

[Doggies7]

As you have just confirmed. Buss is still behind JOD. A preseason recruit who cost us nothing and has not only delivered more but has also shown greater potential.

What happens to his current spot in the queue if we trade for a mature KPD. There are limited spot in the team for such players.

I'm also curious regarding the genuine signs that he has shown that he worth the wait and the investment.

What is his standout strength? Contested or intercept marking? Attacking rebound? Defensive lockdown capability?
Noting he currently doesn't seem to have the size, strength or speed to cut it as a #1or even a #2 KPD.

I think he needs to have a massive preseason and develop some speed, confidence, etc. because it could be his final shot at making it.

I'm not sure where in the point of your AFL watching you decided that by 21 years old a KPD is on his final shot. Of course he doesn't yet have the size or strength to match it regularly with seasoned AFL forwards, he's still a baby giraffe who missed most of his first year with a serious shoulder injury (affects gym time and building his body also).

As I said, guys like Barrass were still toiling away in the WAFL at this stage of their career and people were probably saying similar things about them. I'm not saying Buss is locked in to become a star KPD, i'm saying he isn't yet at its final form and he still needs a few more pre-seasons and AFL hardening to become the player he is destined to.

 

[Doggies7]

Buss, was dafted higher and debuted slower, so he is already showing a slower development than your late bloomer example of Tom Barrass.

Hence it is high time for Buss to get a move on, which is essentially my point.

You keep saying draft position like it is relevant to how quickly a KPP develops. It is irrelevant. You draft because you believe in that player's prime (24-26 years old at the minimum for most cases), they will become a very good player. He is still so far off that, that to say it's his "final shot" is crazy. I understand people see first round draft pick and think he needs to be more developed and ready to go earlier and people then have less patience with them, but that is not the case. You draft for they develop into, not for what they can give you when they are 21.

 

[Foxman98]

You keep saying draft position like it is relevant to how quickly a KPP develops. It is irrelevant. You draft because you believe in that player's prime (24-26 years old at the minimum for most cases), they will become a very good player. He is still so far off that, that to say it's his "final shot" is crazy. I understand people see first round draft pick and think he needs to be more developed and ready to go earlier and people then have less patience with them, but that is not the case. You draft for they develop into, not for what they can give you when they are 21.

Weitering was pick 1 and was moved forward early in his career because he was getting shit on

 

[Thunderoad]

Weitering was pick 1 and was moved forward early in his career because he was getting shit on

Darcy Moore was similar.

 

[Doggies7]

Weitering was pick 1 and was moved forward early in his career because he was getting shit on

Yep there's so many examples likes this. Even his teammate Silvagni who a lot of us are pining for, has only just started looking like a potentially gun KPD (the position he was drafted for) at his age 27 season. Has moved around from KPF to ruck in between as he was struggling to hold his spot down back for Carlton.

I dont want to keep banging on about it but my argument isn't that Buss has been amazing so far and is guaranteed to be an AA full back. It's that he is still lightly built and a bit of a gangly baby giraffe as he is only 21 and missed a season of development his first year. Also he needs more time at VFL and AFL level to truly learn the craft, like a lot of young KPPs do also. He managed to play 7 games at AFL level this year which I'm happy he's gotten than under his belt, and looking forward to seeing him after another pre-season and summer of adding strength and size.

 

[ossie_21]

Weitering was pick 1 and was moved forward early in his career because he was getting shit on

This isn’t the erotic fiction thread…

 

[Bulldogs85]

Yep drafted 2011 and debuted 2014.

Josh worrell is another one that took a few years

Year 1 - 0 games
Year 2 - 1 game
Year 3 - 4 games
Year 4 - 12 games
Year 5 - 13 games
Year 6 - 23 games so me personally I think Buss is developing just fine