Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[JackOutback]

When were you banned from being an AFL member?

It has no practical benefit to someone on the other side of the country, it's a privilege for Victorian fans. I might as well buy a gold pass to Wembley Stadium.

 

[sr36]

My view is if you pay for something, it's yours and you should be able to do whatever you want with it. If you don't agree, then that's your opinion.

I agree. You're paying to be able to purchase a non-transferrable grand final ticket. That's the deal that the AFL currently offer Gold members.

We're both advocating for changes to AFL membership regarding rights around GF tickets. You're advocating for a change to further benefit yourself. I'm advocating for a change that I think is fairer in a national comp.

 

[bacon buster]

It has no practical benefit to someone on the other side of the country, it's a privilege for Victorian fans. I might as well buy a gold pass to Wembley Stadium.

So because you don't want to pay for it, and wouldn't use it if you had it, you'd like to remove access to those who do?

Is that correct?

 

[bacon buster]

I agree. You're paying to be able to purchase a non-transferrable grand final ticket. That's the deal that the AFL currently offer Gold members.

We're both advocating for changes to AFL membership regarding rights around GF tickets. You're advocating for a change to further benefit yourself. I'm advocating for a change that I think is fairer in a national comp.

How is Dan transferring his GF ticket to a supporter of another club to his benefit?

 

[sr36]

How is Dan transferring his GF ticket to a supporter of another club to his benefit?

You don't think there's a benefit from giving someone a valuable gift? The rights to the ticket have a lot of value - he wants to be able to be able to gift it, rather than it going to the next in line AFL member as per the current deal he pays for. Obviously the more common transfer would become selling it for a shit load rather than gifting.

 

[Bay53]

The argument then becomes: "Is the right to access a ticket" something that should be transferable? Lots of members do this anyway even though it's against the rules.

The answer to that is no it shouldn't be because the tickets should be for those members who choose to go.

The whole membership history is based on this. There were more VFL Park members than seats, but because two teams played at VFL Park whilst 5 other games were going on, capacity was never an issue.

Its exactly the same in the MCC - the MCC must have great data because they seem to be able to release a handful of seats for restricted members and get bang on capacity. The Gee v Haw prelim was the only final in many years where they closed the gates on members. Apparently they were about 400 out.

 

[Bay53]

How is Dan transferring his GF ticket to a supporter of another club to his benefit?

Because if seats were transferable, you would be waiting much longer for your Gold membership as membership would have to be capped at the number of seats.

 

[Dan26]

It has no practical benefit to someone on the other side of the country, it's a privilege for Victorian fans. I might as well buy a gold pass to Wembley Stadium.

If you buy a country AFL membership, you get a big discount and can come over for the Grand Final once a year. You said you've never been to a Grand Final. Here's your chance. The AFL offer an AFL membership package specifically for members who live a long way from Melbourne.

 

[Dan26]

I agree. You're paying to be able to purchase a non-transferrable grand final ticket. That's the deal that the AFL currently offer Gold members.

We're both advocating for changes to AFL membership regarding rights around GF tickets. You're advocating for a change to further benefit yourself. I'm advocating for a change that I think is fairer in a national comp.

Making the membership transferable would not benefit me in the slightest. But it would benefit the supporter of a club who I gave my membership to, for them to attempt to purchase a ticket. I didn't go to the Collingwood-Brisbane Prelim and I would have been happy for a Collingwood fan to use my membership. There'd be no gain for me. Fans do this anyway, even though it's against the rules, so it probably doesn't alter demand by very much. It just makes it legal to do what everyone is already doing anyway.

 

[sr36]

Making the membership transferable would not benefit me in the slightest. But it would benefit the supporter of a club who I gave my membership to, for them to attempt to purchase a ticket. I didn't go to the Collingwood-Brisbane Prelim and I would have been happy for a Collingwood fan to use my membership. There'd be no gain for me. Fans do this anyway, even though it's against the rules, so it probably doesn't alter demand by very much. It just makes it legal to do what everyone is already doing anyway.

Let's ignore the value of giving someone a valuable gift and pretend that isn't a benefit:

Who gains: the non-AFL member that you gift your ticket access to.
Who loses: the AFL member that would have gotten the ticket if you didn't hand over the purchasing rights.

Apparently you feel that AFL members have earnt the right to exclusive GF access to those seats - or is it just you who has earnt that right?

 

[doppleganger]

Not if the Eagles member is an AFL member. The AFL allows full AFL members who live more than 180kms from Melbourne to take out a “country” membership which is heavily discounted. This discount takes into account they are unable to use the membership to the same extent as most others, yet the benefits are still the same.

If the Eagles member wants to watch Eagles games in Perth, the AFL membership doesn't help at all.

So yes, if your Bomber mate just paid $300 per year to be a silver member (purely for the future GF finals access) for 20 years, but still had to pay his yearly $500 reserved seat Essendon membership to actually go see footy each year, you are now talking what you think is fair for WA and SA fans to have to do.

That is an actual commitment

An Essendon club member deciding to give their club membership the flick and instead take up a silver membership that gives them better access to more games and finals isn't a sacrifice at all.

 

[Bay53]

Making the membership transferable would not benefit me in the slightest. But it would benefit the supporter of a club who I gave my membership to, for them to attempt to purchase a ticket. I didn't go to the Collingwood-Brisbane Prelim and I would have been happy for a Collingwood fan to use my membership. There'd be no gain for me. Fans do this anyway, even though it's against the rules, so it probably doesn't alter demand by very much. It just makes it legal to do what everyone is already doing anyway.

The point you are missing though is there is not unlimited supply. You say it would benefit a supporter of the club if you gave away your ticket - yes it would be that would come at the detriment of another member who was unable to get access.

(I agree it happens but it should be policed strongly).

 

[doppleganger]

Because if seats were transferable, you would be waiting much longer for your Gold membership as membership would have to be capped at the number of seats.

At least you get the concept.

If you pay 10k for the privilege of a reserved seat, it is transferrable...hence why they are capped at 5,000.

If you pay 750 for an over subscribed reserve with no guarantee of attendance, you are not able to transfer.

 

[Bay53]

If the Eagles member wants to watch Eagles games in Perth, the AFL membership doesn't help at all.

So yes, if your Bomber mate just paid $300 per year to be a silver member (purely for the future GF finals access) for 20 years, but still had to pay his yearly $500 reserved seat Essendon membership to actually go see footy each year, you are now talking what you think is fair for WA and SA fans to have to do.

That is an actual commitment

An Essendon club member deciding to give their club membership the flick and instead take up a silver membership that gives them better access to more games and finals isn't a sacrifice at all.

If people in WA want an AFL membership they can buy one. Similarly it is more expensive for them to travel to the GF. Assuming they have Australian citizenship or residency and we are not in covid times, they are allowed to make the choice to live closer to the GF if that is what they want as a priority over other things that might be beneficial for them living in Perth.

All choices.

 

[JackOutback]

So because you don't want to pay for it, and wouldn't use it if you had it, you'd like to remove access to those who do?

Is that correct?

Yes, something that benefits one group of the fans that later disadvantages another group of fans is a privilege that does not need to exist. I'll post it again...

 

[doppleganger]

If people in WA want an AFL membership they can buy one.

Yes they can.

But unlike the Essendon fan who wants to watch Essendon play at Marvel/MCG each week, it doesn't actually help them watch their team each week.

An Essendon fan choosing to ditch a direct Essendon membership in favour of an AFL membership that provides them greater access and better value is a choice a WC or Adelaide fan doesn't have.

Laughable that they then double down and th n think they should be rewarded for being an AFL silver member for 20 years.

 

[sr36]

The argument then becomes: "Is the right to access a ticket" something that should be transferable? Lots of members do this anyway even though it's against the rules.

There's 30,000 gold members and a lot less GF seats allocated to them. The Gold membership cap is based on the knowledge that many won't go into the ballot. A lot more would go into the ballot if the tickets were transferable. What you are proposing is for you to be able to take a ticket that would otherwise go to an AFL Gold member and do with it what you will. Or alternatively you being deprived of a ticket and it going to a non-Gold member. Or perhaps have some lose their gold member status so the remainders can all get a ticket.

 

[bacon buster]

Yes, something that benefits one group of the fans that later disadvantages another group of fans is a privilege that does not need to exist. I'll post it again...

View attachment 2443145

You're not disadvantaged. You can have the membership too. It is not exclusive to Victorians, as has been pointed out a number of times

 

[Bay53]

Yes they can.

But unlike the Essendon fan who wants to watch Essendon play at Marvel/MCG each week, it doesn't actually help them watch their team each week.

An Essendon fan choosing to ditch a direct Essendon membership in favour of an AFL membership that provides them greater access and better value is a choice a WC or Adelaide fan doesn't have.

Laughable that they then double down and th n think they should be rewarded for being an AFL silver member for 20 years.

That's the choice that the individual can make. They can choose to attend what ever venues and support what ever club works for them. Presumably they will make this choice in conjunction with other aspects of their lives which may or may not result in them living in Melbourne.

I don't see how it is laughable. The membership is sold that you first get Silver membership and then you progress through a waiting list to Gold. If anything the wait has proved to be much longer than what it was originally sold as.

Not surprisingly, after people have waited so long to get access to the benefit, they want the ability to then use it.

Hardly unreasonable.

 

[sr36]

You're not disadvantaged. You can have the membership too. It is not exclusive to Victorians, as has been pointed out a number of times

View attachment 2443157

Yes. I'm sure if it didn't also act as an Essendon membership, you'd be paying your $500 a year for silver membership just to be in a queue for an indefinite number of decades. FMD.

 

[Dan26]

If the Eagles member wants to watch Eagles games in Perth, the AFL membership doesn't help at all.

Actually it does. The country AFL membership option (designed for those who live a long way from Melbourne) gives a large discount to AFL membership whilst keeping all the benefits. That discount can then be put towards a W.A teams 11 home game membership. Yes, the Eagles membership has to be done through the club, not the AFL, but they can use the money saved from the "country AFL membership" option to fund their local Eagles membership. And if the individual is keen, he can come to Melbourne one or twice a year, perhaps for both the Prelim and Grand Finals over a 7-day trip and go to the two biggest games.

 

[Dan26]

There's 30,000 gold members and a lot less GF seats allocated to them. The Gold membership cap is based on the knowledge that many won't go into the ballot. A lot more would go into the ballot if the tickets were transferable. What you are proposing is for you to be able to take a ticket that would otherwise go to an AFL Gold member and do with it what you will. Or alternatively you being deprived of a ticket and it going to a non-Gold member. Or perhaps have some lose their gold member status so the remainders can all get a ticket.

Fair enough. Both you and Bay53 have convinced me. Non-transferable is the way to go.

 

[doppleganger]

Actually it does. The country AFL membership option (designed for those who live a long way from Melbourne) gives a large discount to AFL membership whilst keeping all the benefits.

The benefits of an AFL Silver member being ability to access 40 games at Marvel / MCG but zero at Optus.

And then again finals in week 1-3 at MCG.

So the WA based fan is paying how much to not help them watch any football games in WA?

That discount can then be put towards a W.A teams 11 home game membership.

The discount, you mean paying for something they won't actually use.

Which is the complete opposite to our Essendon fan based in Melbourne who actively chose to give up their Essendon membership as AFL Silver gives them better access!

Yes, the Eagles membership has to be done through the club, not the AFL, but they can use the money saved from the "country AFL membership" option to fund their local Eagles membership.

Again, they are having to still purchase their separate Eagles membership.

The Eagles member is effectively just contributing an extra $250-300 per year for the privilege of a Country Silver Membership.

And if the individual is keen, he can come to Melbourne one or twice a year, perhaps for both the Prelim and Grand Finals over a 7-day trip and go to the two biggest games.

A bit trickier to plan for a GF as a silver member, when access is not confirmed until the week before.

And again, if the Eagles made it, their club membership would already give them GF access anyway.

But yes, the WA based Eagles member has a choice to pay the $250-300 per year to be a AFL country silver member on top of their $500+ Eagles club membership (which they still need if they want to watch the Eagles play).

What a great choice!!

 

[Dan26]

The benefits of an AFL Silver member being ability to access 40 games at Marvel / MCG but zero at Optus.

And then again finals in week 1-3 at MCG.

So the WA based fan is paying how much to not help them watch any football games in WA?

The discount, you mean paying for something they won't actually use.

Which is the complete opposite to our Essendon fan based in Melbourne who actively chose to give up their Essendon membership as AFL Silver gives them better access!

Again, they are having to still purchase their separate Eagles membership.

The Eagles member is effectively just contributing an extra $250-300 per year for the privilege of a Country Silver Membership.

A bit trickier to plan for a GF as a silver member, when access is not confirmed until the week before.

And again, if the Eagles made it, their club membership would already give them GF access anyway.

But yes, the WA based Eagles member has a choice to pay the $250-300 per year to be a AFL country silver member on top of their $500+ Eagles club membership (which they still need if they want to watch the Eagles play).

What a great choice!!

The country option has been available for years. If someone from WA took it out years ago, they would be Gold by now. I'm in the Melbourne metro area, but I only had to wait 3 years to be upgraded from silver to Gold. I'm sure there are some WA based country AFL Gold members right now. It's about having foresight. If you want something, don't whinge about it - go and get it.

 

[bacon buster]

Yes. I'm sure if it didn't also act as an Essendon membership, you'd be paying your $500 a year for silver membership just to be in a queue for an indefinite number of decades. FMD.

If I felt as strongly as you did about being able to attend, I would. That’s me though.