Bruce Lehrmann revealed as man charged with two counts of rape in Toowoomba

[Festerz]

If we are really concerned about the fairness of the judicial system then the focus has to be on the way Lehrmann has consistently used ever evolving delaying tactics to stop the charges against him being heard in a courtroom.

It is now more than three years since Qld Police charged Lehrmann with two counts of sexual assault relating to allegations stemming from an incident in Toowoomba in October 2021. And each time the matter looks ready to go to court , a new request is put in by his defence to stop the matter moving forward. This has happened under two separate legal teams acting on his behalf.

"Justice delayed is justice denied" comes immediately to mind here - the legal maxim meaning that a delay in the legal process can be as damaging as the absence of justice itself, making the redress offered effectively meaningless.

It's an issue that constantly plagues the victims of sexual assault and one of the reasons why so many (alleged) victims of sexual assault withdraw their complaint before it ever makes it to a Court Room.

 

[Carn The Berries]

If we are really concerned about the fairness of the judicial system then the focus has to be on the way Lehrmann has consistently used ever evolving delaying tactics to stop the charges against him being heard in a courtroom.

It is now more than three years since Qld Police charged Lehrmann with two counts of sexual assault relating to allegations stemming from an incident in Toowoomba in October 2021. And each time the matter looks ready to go to court , a new request is put in by his defence to stop the matter moving forward. This has happened under two separate legal teams acting on his behalf.

"Justice delayed is justice denied" comes immediately to mind here - the legal maxim meaning that a delay in the legal process can be as damaging as the absence of justice itself, making the redress offered effectively meaningless.

It's an issue that constantly plagues the victims of sexual assault and one of the reasons why so many (alleged) victims of sexual assault withdraw their complaint before it ever makes it to a Court Room.

Couldn't agree more. But this isn't a reason to deny Lehrmann something he's legally entitled to.

This has take far too long to get moving. The victim deserves their day in court.

 

[CM86]

Couldn't agree more. But this isn't a reason to deny Lehrmann something he's legally entitled to.

This has take far too long to get moving. The victim deserves their day in court.

No.

People are denied things that they are 'legally entitled to' everyday. It's up to the courts discretion.

It should be about impartial facts being presented, and justice being served.
Not weaponising any private information possible, to either make the victim too scared to continue, or be abused and harassed during testimony.

This is to sift through, to find the most harmful personal information available, to attack the character of the victim.

If any of her personal information is leaked and published, the defence, Lehrmann and the judge should all face some form of severe punishment, and loss of their professional standing.



At some point we need the legal system to start working for the victims, more than for the wealthy and powerful.

 

[Carn The Berries]

No.

People are denied things that they are 'legally entitled to' everyday. It's up to the courts discretion.

It should be about impartial facts being presented, and justice being served.
Not weaponising any private information possible, to either make the victim too scared to continue, or be abused and harassed during testimony.

This is to sift through, to find the most harmful personal information available, to attack the character of the victim.

If any of her personal information is leaked and published, the defence, Lehrmann and the judge should all face some form of server punishment, and loss of their professional standing.



At some point we need the legal system to start working for the victims, more than for the wealthy and powerful.

I don't disagree with there being repercussions if the information makes it into the public domain.

Simply saying that someone can't have something because it has the potential to cause harm to another party is a very, very slippery slope.

 

[Chief]

I don't disagree with there being repercussions if the information makes it into the public domain.

Simply saying that someone can't have something because it has the potential to cause harm to another party is a very, very slippery slope.

If the party is known to misuse such information, I see no issue with placing limits on what they can see. It happens every day of the week.

 

[Festerz]

I don't disagree with there being repercussions if the information makes it into the public domain.

Simply saying that someone can't have something because it has the potential to cause harm to another party is a very, very slippery slope.

No need for me to give a lecture about the ‘slippery slope’ fallacy.

Enough to say that that courts in Australia are required to take each application on its merits. Natural justice demands that consideration involve applying a level of decency and common sense in an application from a repeat offender to delay a court hearing and possibly misuse private information to escape justice would imho warrant that application being denied.

Such a ruling would be entirely consistent with the judicial process in Australia in relation to justice being the paramount consideration. No slippery slopes or other playground equipment needed.

 

[CM86]

I don't disagree with there being repercussions if the information makes it into the public domain.

Simply saying that someone can't have something because it has the potential to cause harm to another party is a very, very slippery slope.

No one is arguing that. We are talking about a very specific thing in a very specific circumstance, and in regards to a judge's discretion.

It doesn't make sense for you to be arguing in defence of it in this zoomed-out, vague way.
Considering 'legal entitlement' is denied in courts everyday.

Make your case as to why Lehrmann should have a forensic copy of this victims phone!!



The main reason they're doing it outside of intimidation and delaying, is because everyone knows that victims don't know how to handle things, and almost never act in the 'right' way.
It's more often irrational, because of how hard it is to deal with the trauma.
So on top of looking for anything possible to embarrass her, shame her and mischaracterise her (even if nothing to do with the case), they will be looking for any time she has tried to downplay it, deny it happened, calmed and assured friends or family that she is totally fine and nothing happened etc etc.
Because it's your own fault, and you blame yourself.
Because that's what you do.

If you ever open up to someone about what's happened, they will demand you get justice and retribution.
They'll offer to beat up or kill the person, try and force you to go to the police, share it with others etc etc. And all you want is for your life to go back to the way it was, and to feel normal again.


So what's your reasoning as to why in this specific case, you would support Lehrmann having a forensic copy of the victim's phone?

 

[Saint]

The legal need should be balanced against the likelihood of additional trauma to the victim caused by it.

In attacks of this nature, the needs of the victim need to have some standing as well as the need to provide a fair trial.

 

[western royboy]

The legal need should be balanced against the likelihood of additional trauma to the victim caused by it.

In attacks of this nature, the needs of the victim need to have some standing as well as the need to provide a fair trial.

System needs a reboot, real quick

 

[Saint]

System needs a reboot, real quick

For these types of crime. There needs to be a set, accepted process that both the prosecution and defence need to stick to so that there is certainty for the victim. If the defence can't meet it, stiff.

There should also be an independent party which can look at sensitive evidence and decide what is admissible and relevant and what isn't. The Defence could even, in confidence, give them an idea of what their defence might be so that the Independent person can look for those specific things.

 

[western royboy]

For these types of crime. There needs to be a set, accepted process that both the prosecution and defence need to stick to so that there is certainty for the victim. If the defence can't meet it, stiff.

There should also be an independent party which can look at sensitive evidence and decide what is admissible and relevant and what isn't. The Defence could even, in confidence, give them an idea of what their defence might be so that the Independent person can look for those specific things.

I lost a lot of respect for the Law through my experience. Lawyers just use the system to suit themselves and have zero interest in reform. When you are inside it it’s debilitating. Plenty of cases don’t proceed because the Prosecution aren’t prepared to take the risk with the victims…that is damning.

 

[Festerz]

I lost a lot of respect for the Law through my experience. Lawyers just use the system to suit themselves and have zero interest in reform. When you are inside it it’s debilitating. Plenty of cases don’t proceed because the Prosecution aren’t prepared to take the risk with the victims…that is damning.

While not wanting to be dismissive or disrespectful of your own personal experiences with the specific legal practitioners (and recognising that there are many thousands of instances of victims suffering similarly) this is a broad statement and like most generalisations is untrue. Stating the obvious but reform of any area of society, especially a legal system that underpins our Constitution affecting the functions and lives of every individual, group and organisation operating across multiple layers of government at the Federal, State and Territory level is immensely difficult.

Focussing specifically on the topic of this thread, which relates to how the criminal justice system responds to allegations of sexual assault, there are hundreds of trained lawyers deeply involved - many on an unpaid voluntary basis - working to seeking fundamental reforms to the way all aspects of the criminal justice system - from state and territory police services to criminal courts and associated support services.

A good place to start to get an understanding of this work is to read through the submissions, evidence and findings of The Inquiry into Justice Responses to Sexual Violence led by the Australian Law Reform Commission with the Final Report tabled Federal Parliament in March this year.

You can access that information and the Final Report here:

Justice Responses to Sexual Violence

The Inquiry into Justice Responses to Sexual Violence has closed. Read the Final Report here. The Australian Law Reform Commission (ALRC) has been asked to inquire into justice responses to sexual violence in Australia. This Inquiry forms part of the Government’s commitment to strengthen and...

www.alrc.gov.au

 

[western royboy]

While not wanting to be dismissive or disrespectful of your own personal experiences with the specific legal practitioners (and recognising that there are many thousands of instances of victims suffering similarly) this is a broad statement and like most generalisations is untrue. Stating the obvious but reform of any area of society, especially a legal system that underpins our Constitution affecting the functions and lives of every individual, group and organisation operating across multiple layers of government at the Federal, State and Territory level is immensely difficult.

Focussing specifically on the topic of this thread, which relates to how the criminal justice system responds to allegations of sexual assault, there are hundreds of trained lawyers deeply involved - many on an unpaid voluntary basis - working to seeking fundamental reforms to the way all aspects of the criminal justice system - from state and territory police services to criminal courts and associated support services.

A good place to start to get an understanding of this work is to read through the submissions, evidence and findings of The Inquiry into Justice Responses to Sexual Violence led by the Australian Law Reform Commission with the Final Report tabled Federal Parliament in March this year.

You can access that information and the Final Report here:

Justice Responses to Sexual Violence

The Inquiry into Justice Responses to Sexual Violence has closed. Read the Final Report here. The Australian Law Reform Commission (ALRC) has been asked to inquire into justice responses to sexual violence in Australia. This Inquiry forms part of the Government’s commitment to strengthen and...

www.alrc.gov.au

When things start changing I’ll start clapping

 

[FIGJAM]

"Justice delayed is justice denied" comes immediately to mind here

Couldn't agree more here, Festerz (and you bolded it!)!

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/exstaffer-fiona-brown-forced-to-wait-until-2027-for-higgins-scandal-court-case/news-story/1b1094a95a5dd595802f7441204163df

 

[Black Diamond]

Delays are an enormous problem with the system and impacts victims and the accused alike in civil and criminal matters.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Simply saying that someone can't have something because it has the potential to cause harm to another party is a very, very slippery slope.

We agreed as a society that some people can't have freedom for a period because of the potential to cause harm to other parties. And in the worst cases, we say (officially) that they can never have freedom because the risk they pose is so great. So this happens already.

 

[Gough]

It's the poorhouse for Bruce now.

Shortly before saying the appeal had been dismissed, Wigney recapped the findings of the defamation case.

He also went through the four grounds of Lehrmann’s appeal:

• That the trial was procedurally unfair to him;
• That an ordinary person viewing The Project would have thought Lehrmann committed a violent rape with lack of consent;
• That the primary judge erred in finding Network 10 and Lisa WIlkinson had discharged the burden of proof in relation to the rape; and that
• His claim should have succeeded and damages awarded in his favour should be much more than $20,000.

All of these grounds have been dismissed.

 

[Rotayjay]

Appeal dismissed. Bye Bruce!

 

[BFew]

Appeal dismissed. Bye Bruce!

"Having escaped the lions' den, Mr Lehrmann made the mistake of going back for his hat." (Source: Lehrmann's April 2024 Judge)

Now you've got your hat back, run Bruce run.

 

[Gough]

"Having escaped the lions' den, Mr Lehrmann made the mistake of going back for his hat." (Source: Lehrmann's April 2024 Judge)

Now you've got your hat back, run Bruce run.

Maybe not...

AAP reports that Lehrmann “is expected to apply for special leave to appeal the full court decision in the high court”.

 

[Festerz]

Appeal dismissed. Bye Bruce!

Not just dismissed but full costs of Lisa Wilkinson and Network 10 awarded against him.

It's being reported by sources close to him (i.e. Daily Mail) that he now intends to appeal to the High Court.

Bruce Lehrmann, a former Liberal Party staffer, has been outed as rapist by the Federal Court - a finding confirmed by a separate judgement - and has classified himself bankrupt.

His defence team are using stalling tactics to delay his appearance in Court on other sexual assault charges laid by police three years ago in Queensland.

His victims are the ones who are suffering here.

WTF is bankrolling his defence and why?

 

[Festerz]

And a reminder that rather than join with Wilkinson and Ten in defending Lehrmann's defamation case for rape allegations made against him, the ABC agreed to pay him $150,000 in an out-of-court settlement. (NewsCorp provided Lehrmann with $445k as an out of court settlement.)

Contrast this with the ABC's position on the unlawful sacking of part time presenter Antoinette Lattouf for her social media posts relating to the Israel invasion of Gaza. Lattouf offered the ABC the chance to settle out of court for $85k but instead an estimated $2.6 million of taxpayers' money was spent by the ABC in defending the action against them - which they lost.

The politics of both these cases is clear to all who bother to look.

 

[BFew]

Maybe not...

Not sure that Bruce's sugar mummies and daddies are going to fill his hat with legal fee $$$ assistance for his next round.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15333693/Bruce-Lehrmann-appeal-court.html

'Devastating financial blow for Bruce Lehrmann as he LOSES appeal and judge makes unexpected findings against him - and is now set to 'go back for his hat' one final time'​

...
Bruce Lehrmann has lost his defamation appeal and faces financial ruin with a legal bill of up to $2million - but he still plans to make yet another appeal in the High Court.
....
Ms Chrysanthou said Wilkinson was 'utterly delighted' by the court's findings and relieved that it had been decided before Christmas.'She's sorry she couldn't make it [but] she's so grateful to the court,' said Ms Chrysanthou outside the court.
'She's particularly happy about the court's acceptance of her intentions in relation to the nature of the assault and she's looking forward to moving on now.

 

[DapperDon]

Unexpected loss?

 

[western royboy]

Maybe not...

I believe an up and coming barrister may be available following the conclusion of a case yesterday