Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 5 - thread rules updated

[wannabejack]

Yet another example of everything in Russia being shit except for piss.

As barreness knows only too well.

russia's version of Flying High

 

[barreness]

Again i say WHY DO YOU keep forgetting that this war was started by putin and russian all for putin's ego?
Stop being a mouthpiece for the kremlin and little legs putin and like a majority of the wish defeat for russia and putin

Someone needs a crash course in dialectics, alas I am busy with the gardening

 

[barreness]

In “negotiations”, russia wants Ukraine to have neither a strong “army and weapons” or “robust security guarantees” because, even you know, that russia will be back after violating any future agreement.

Yeh there's two ways to get demilitarised, the easy way and the hard way.
It is interesting that the Trump plan had 600k military size limit, the Istanbul '22 treaty had 100k(Russian wants) and 250k(Ukraine wants). How they could even afford an active military that size is beyond me.

Russia was fine with security guarantees, as long as they had a veto if some nationalist did something silly, it was the west that wasn't willing to sign it(and still aren't). EU was also fine just no NATO, that was the deal.

I'll link it because it feels like no one has actually read it yet has strong opinions about it.
https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/a456d6dd8e27e830/e279a252-full.pdf
This looks a great deal in hindsight

Upon Ukraine’s 1991 independence, over 1,700 Soviet nuclear weapons were left on its territory. Ukraine never possessed operational control of the weapons, and all were removed to Russia under a 1994 agreement in exchange for security assurances.

While Ukraine had "administrative control" of the weapons delivery systems, it would have needed 12 to 18 months to establish full operational control.

Yeh Soviet, not their weapons, as I said. You forget the declaration of independence? 'Remain a neutral, non-nuclear state'

If they tried to re engineer the ICBM's both the US and Russia would have invaded and secured them, lets be honest. They got some cash for returning the bombers, should have been happy.

 

[barreness]

Newsflash for you: Russia has already lost the war. Putin has openly expressed his desire to genocide Ukranians, destroy the state of Ukraine and absorb it into Russia. Putin has openly declared his aim was to occupy Ukraine or install a puppet government.

Be a whole lot cooler if you'd source some of these claims. I'll take absorb some of Ukraine into Russia, this has been stated obvs

This goal will never be achieved for Russia no matter what Putin does. Ukraine will never ever be a puppet state of Russia again, that is guaranteed now.

Putin also cannot even gain recognition for occupied territory. Russia simply cannot afford to continue an occupation perpetually. Ukraine on the other hand has far reach support. Putin is isolated and viewed as a modern day Hitler by the rest of the woirld.

Why Putin Is Losing The War In Ukraine That He Thinks He Is Winning

OPINION — The Russian invasion of Ukraine that began in January 2022 is now approaching its fourth year. The cost for Ukraine has been very high, but the cost for Russia has been astronomical. Russian forces have been pushed back nearly to the territory they controlled at the end of 2021...

www.thecipherbrief.com

https://www.economist.com/the-world-ahead/2025/11/12/vladimir-putin-has-no-plan-for-winning-in-ukraine

No matter what your pedo president does, Russia has lost in Ukraine.

The only question now is how much damage Putin can do to Russia before he eventually has wasted all of Russia's gold and investment funds and simply cannot continue or he does everyone a favor and kills himself / is assassinated.

You must hate having to defend a pedo every day in your job, I do feel for you.

Lib rubbish. Whatever man, they'll sign a deal at some point and you'll stop posting here like you did on the Israel thread ya coward

 

[barreness]

If that was the Russian government doing the same thing you would frame it as Russia doing those Ukranian children a favor.

Solid projection once again

 

[barreness]

There is still a chance that when Ukraine has elections post-peace that Russia really violates every norm, open bribes, killing non-cooperating candidates, murder and mayhem until a Russia-friendly candidate is elected and agrees to surrender.

Russia failed it's Finland invasion, but eventually Finland surrendered.

Finland tried to take it back by attacking with the Nazi's; failed, conceded more territory, and paid reparations.

Finland also remained an independent state on the Soviet's/RF border for 80 odd years before signing on with NATO recently. Still no invasion, crazy stuff

Poland, Czechoslovakia, Chechnya, Circassia.

All of these invasions mostly failed at first, but eventually Russia overwhelmed them and committed genocide or near-genocide to meet their goals.

Genocide lol, lets get some more nazi propaganda going
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_genocide_theory

The Ukrainian Govt and army could still collapse or a bribed, depressed, stressed general can Benedict Arnold it.

Syrsky is an ethnic Russian, trained in soviet military schools. There's an irony here but I'll let you work it out

 

[barreness]

I'm talking about a Trojan horse style thing where the pro-Russia candidates don't reveal themselves as pro-Russian until after the election. Plus large scale terrorist attacks and disruptions to the electioneering.

Bit early for 'stab in the back' myths. Probably will happen though, hopefully this time it's pushed against Trump/Europe rather than the Jews

 

[barreness]

Yet another example of everything in Russia being shit except for piss.

As barreness knows only too well.

Yeh saw that, some real final destination shit, rip them

There's 100-300 glide bombs released onto the front everyday with relative impunity by Su34's so I don't think this will stop them.
That's 30-100 sorties a day; depending on bomb size etc, four FAB500's are standard

Roughly 3 were lost this year, 8 last year(accidents, malfunction included).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._and_accidents_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war

Just for your interest, Sumy and Kharkov are well within range of these glide bombs. If they wanted to genocide civilian centres they could

 

[barreness]

Some interesting stuff out of mediazona, think I'll be revising my estimates of Russian casualties up a bit, first good bit of data about Russian MIA
https://en.zona.media/article/2025/12/05/mia
It can be stated with confidence that an internal order went out across military units around mid-2024: from that point onwards, filings began to arrive consistently and in large quantities after years in which almost nothing reached the courts. The result is a judicial system now processing roughly 500 missing-soldier cases every working day.

 

[Zidane98]

It's a disaster for Russia

 

[Zidane98]

Assad taking the piss about pedo Putin has gotta sting

 

[wannabejack]

Yeh there's two ways to get demilitarised, the easy way and the hard way.
It is interesting that the Trump plan had 600k military size limit, the Istanbul '22 treaty had 100k(Russian wants) and 250k(Ukraine wants). How they could even afford an active military that size is beyond me.

Russia was fine with security guarantees, as long as they had a veto if some nationalist did something silly, it was the west that wasn't willing to sign it(and still aren't). EU was also fine just no NATO, that was the deal.

I'll link it because it feels like no one has actually read it yet has strong opinions about it.
https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/a456d6dd8e27e830/e279a252-full.pdf
This looks a great deal in hindsight

Yeh Soviet, not their weapons, as I said. You forget the declaration of independence? 'Remain a neutral, non-nuclear state'

If they tried to re engineer the ICBM's both the US and Russia would have invaded and secured them, lets be honest. They got some cash for returning the bombers, should have been happy.

It’s as if Ukraine was the aggressor with the restrictions that russsia and the US want to put on Ukraine. Why should they be restricted on how they defend themselves when nobody wants to guarantee they will come to their defence next time russia invade.

It’s convenient to remember some things and forget others.
You forget The Budapest Memorandum
“respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”

 

[Mobbs]

Discuss?

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has accused Poroshenko, Umerov, Yermak, Zaluzhny, and other Ukrainian politicians and military personnel of genocide against residents of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Reported by Meduza:

Генпрокуратура РФ обвинила Порошенко, Умерова, Ермака, Залужного и других украинских политиков и военных в геноциде жителей Донецкой и Луганской областей — Meduza

Генпрокуратура России утвердила обвинительное заключение в отношении «высшего политического руководства» Украины. Об этом сообщается на сайте ведомства.

meduza.io

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has approved the indictment against Ukraine's "senior political leadership," according to the agency's website.

According to the investigation, since April 2014, “the accused and other officials, with the aim of committing genocide” against the population of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, “gave orders to subordinate servicemen of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and other armed formations to use firearms, armored vehicles, combat aircraft, missiles, and artillery weapons against civilians.”

As a result, according to the Prosecutor General's Office, nearly 5,000 civilians were killed, more than 18,500 were injured, and more than 13,500 were wounded, including 1,275 minors. More than 153,000 civilian infrastructure facilities were partially or completely destroyed. According to the Prosecutor General's Office, more than 2.3 million civilians were forced to flee their permanent residences.

In total, the agency's press release listed 41 individuals. Among them are former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, former head of the presidential office Andriy Yermak, head of the Security Service of Ukraine Vasyl Malyuk, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Syrsky, former Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, former Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valeriy Zaluzhny, Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Rustem Umerov, and others. All of them have been charged in absentia under Article 357 of the Russian Criminal Code for genocide. The criminal case has been sent to the court of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR).

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is not mentioned in the Prosecutor General's Office statement.

In February 2022, on the third day of the Great War, Ukraine filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, arguing that Russian authorities justify the invasion by citing "genocide against the Russian-speaking population of Donbas." Kyiv asked the court to rule that, contrary to Russia's claims, Ukraine did not commit genocide in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, and that Russia has no legal right to take any actions on or against Ukrainian territory. In February, the International Court of Justice in The Hague ruled to hear the merits of Ukraine's genocide claim against Russia.

 

[CM86]

Ukraine says.......... I mean it's a possibility

What's your thoughts on a shady charity sending Ukrainian kids to dodgy Turkish hotels to be (amongst other things) sexually abused?
https://www.occrp.org/en/investigation/an-escape-from-war-in-ukraine-to-neglect-in-turkey

Fleeing Russian Bombs, Ukrainian Orphans Faced Abuse and Neglect in Turkish Hotels​

For the Ukrainian children huddled in the basement of the Horlytsia orphanage as Russian bombs exploded around them in February 2022, evacuation sounded like a dream come true.​

It's amazing that you and I can both agree that this is horrible, and inexcusable.


But when Russia does it, you defend it as taking kids out of harms way on the firing line.
You now find it excusable.

From the exact same site you've just used to support your position on this...
https://www.occrp.org/en/news/un-re...eturn-forcibly-transferred-ukrainian-children

UN Resolution Urges Russia to Return 'Forcibly Transferred' Ukrainian Children​

The move highlights years of forced transfers amid mounting international concern over Russia’s conduct in Ukraine.​

​

The UN General Assembly has demanded that Russia return Ukrainian children who have been separated from their families and taken to Russia since 2014, when Moscow seized Crimea.​

​

In a newly adopted resolution—passed with 91 votes in favor, 12 against, and 57 abstentions—the UN called on Russia to “ensure the immediate, safe, and unconditional return of all Ukrainian children who have been forcibly transferred or deported.”​

​

The resolution claims Moscow’s actions violate international law, which prohibits the “forcible transfer or deportation of protected persons from occupied territory.”​

​

“It is unimaginable that someone could view children as war trophies,” said Ukraine’s deputy Foreign Minister, Mariana Betsa. She said at least 20,000 Ukrainian children have been deported to Russia. Russia rejected the resolution, with its ambassador, Maria Zabolotskaya, calling it a “particularly cynical lie.”​

The Ukrainian government says several hundred thousand children have been forcibly taken to Russia, with more than 19,000 cases identified. Experts at Yale University estimate that 35,000 children have been taken from Ukraine to more than 100 locations in Russia and Russian-occupied territories.



So what's your position on this? Is it inexcusable in both instances? OR... is it justified because it's just Russia trying to protect kids from the frontlines...?
Maybe you'd argue that it would have been better for the kids if Russia had taken them?

 

[Aussie in exile]

It's a disaster for Russia

I think there has been a lot more russian men killed in Ukraine by a long way than the Poison Dwarf will admit too or his mouthpieces on these forums.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Someone needs a crash course in dialectics, alas I am busy with the gardening

Someone needs to admit than the Poison Dwarf has made a huge mistake in invading Ukraine all for his ego.

 

[Ludovico]

One of the intriguing aspects of this war his how the behaviours of Russia conform to the classic parameters of an abuser.

Dr Jennifer Freyd coined the term DARVO to describe the symptomology of perpetrators of abuse once confronted. It stands for

Deny
Attack
Reverse Victim and Offender.


It also neatly describes the behaviours of Russia we see in the media, and from its useful idiots on here.

Deny: Russia didnt kill those civilians for example, when the evidence is clear as crystal

Attack: Nazis, Corruption, how about our civilians etc etc

Reverse victim and offender: Ukraine started it, NATO, etc etc

It neatly illustrates two things. That Russia as a nation has the psychopathology of an abuser. And its supporters on here do also.

It also helps frame what Trumps America is becoming as it adopts Kremlin narratives and talking points.

I refuse to take a values neutral approach to those on here who support Russia.

You are vermin like your masters.

 

[Zidane98]

Discuss?

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has accused Poroshenko, Umerov, Yermak, Zaluzhny, and other Ukrainian politicians and military personnel of genocide against residents of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Reported by Meduza:

Генпрокуратура РФ обвинила Порошенко, Умерова, Ермака, Залужного и других украинских политиков и военных в геноциде жителей Донецкой и Луганской областей — Meduza

Генпрокуратура России утвердила обвинительное заключение в отношении «высшего политического руководства» Украины. Об этом сообщается на сайте ведомства.

meduza.io

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has approved the indictment against Ukraine's "senior political leadership," according to the agency's website.

According to the investigation, since April 2014, “the accused and other officials, with the aim of committing genocide” against the population of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, “gave orders to subordinate servicemen of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and other armed formations to use firearms, armored vehicles, combat aircraft, missiles, and artillery weapons against civilians.”

As a result, according to the Prosecutor General's Office, nearly 5,000 civilians were killed, more than 18,500 were injured, and more than 13,500 were wounded, including 1,275 minors. More than 153,000 civilian infrastructure facilities were partially or completely destroyed. According to the Prosecutor General's Office, more than 2.3 million civilians were forced to flee their permanent residences.

In total, the agency's press release listed 41 individuals. Among them are former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, former head of the presidential office Andriy Yermak, head of the Security Service of Ukraine Vasyl Malyuk, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Syrsky, former Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, former Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valeriy Zaluzhny, Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Rustem Umerov, and others. All of them have been charged in absentia under Article 357 of the Russian Criminal Code for genocide. The criminal case has been sent to the court of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR).

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is not mentioned in the Prosecutor General's Office statement.

In February 2022, on the third day of the Great War, Ukraine filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, arguing that Russian authorities justify the invasion by citing "genocide against the Russian-speaking population of Donbas." Kyiv asked the court to rule that, contrary to Russia's claims, Ukraine did not commit genocide in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, and that Russia has no legal right to take any actions on or against Ukrainian territory. In February, the International Court of Justice in The Hague ruled to hear the merits of Ukraine's genocide claim against Russia.

How embarrassing for Russia as a nation. Totally undermines any credibility and clearly a case of accusation in a mirror.

Which was a favoured tactic of Hitler, Goebbels & co.

Putin must really idolize Hitler, doing every possible to be like him.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Discuss?

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has accused Poroshenko, Umerov, Yermak, Zaluzhny, and other Ukrainian politicians and military personnel of genocide against residents of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Reported by Meduza:

Генпрокуратура РФ обвинила Порошенко, Умерова, Ермака, Залужного и других украинских политиков и военных в геноциде жителей Донецкой и Луганской областей — Meduza

Генпрокуратура России утвердила обвинительное заключение в отношении «высшего политического руководства» Украины. Об этом сообщается на сайте ведомства.

meduza.io

The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has approved the indictment against Ukraine's "senior political leadership," according to the agency's website.

According to the investigation, since April 2014, “the accused and other officials, with the aim of committing genocide” against the population of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, “gave orders to subordinate servicemen of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and other armed formations to use firearms, armored vehicles, combat aircraft, missiles, and artillery weapons against civilians.”

As a result, according to the Prosecutor General's Office, nearly 5,000 civilians were killed, more than 18,500 were injured, and more than 13,500 were wounded, including 1,275 minors. More than 153,000 civilian infrastructure facilities were partially or completely destroyed. According to the Prosecutor General's Office, more than 2.3 million civilians were forced to flee their permanent residences.

In total, the agency's press release listed 41 individuals. Among them are former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, former head of the presidential office Andriy Yermak, head of the Security Service of Ukraine Vasyl Malyuk, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Syrsky, former Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, former Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valeriy Zaluzhny, Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Rustem Umerov, and others. All of them have been charged in absentia under Article 357 of the Russian Criminal Code for genocide. The criminal case has been sent to the court of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR).

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is not mentioned in the Prosecutor General's Office statement.

In February 2022, on the third day of the Great War, Ukraine filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, arguing that Russian authorities justify the invasion by citing "genocide against the Russian-speaking population of Donbas." Kyiv asked the court to rule that, contrary to Russia's claims, Ukraine did not commit genocide in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, and that Russia has no legal right to take any actions on or against Ukrainian territory. In February, the International Court of Justice in The Hague ruled to hear the merits of Ukraine's genocide claim against Russia.

They have forgotten, or don't want to remember the amount of Ukrainian citizens that russia has killed with it's drone attacks on civilians areas in Ukraine

 

[wannabejack]

 

[barreness]

Two interesting docos recently, both from the 22/23 period and the war has changed a lot the last couple of years

 

[barreness]

It’s as if Ukraine was the aggressor with the restrictions that russsia and the US want to put on Ukraine. Why should they be restricted on how they defend themselves when nobody wants to guarantee they will come to their defence next time russia invade.

The losing party has terms forced upon them. Who started it doesn't really matter for peace terms, generally you can get reparations if the other side started it and lost*

*Notable exceptions being Vietnam paying south Vietnamese war debt back to the US and Haiti paying slave owners

It’s convenient to remember some things and forget others.
You forget The Budapest Memorandum
“respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”

Yeh I know. It's a memo, not a treaty. Russia considered the first part broken by the US backed coup, you may not and that would also be a fair position

 

[Baldur]

Belgium Opposes Seizing Russian Assets, Says Moscow’s Defeat Is “a Fairy Tale”

Belgium's Prime Minister discusses the complexities around frozen Russian assets and the challenges posed by Russia's unwavering stance in Ukraine.

united24media.com

“Who genuinely believes that Russia is losing in Ukraine? Russia is not losing. That is a fairy tale, an illusion. And it is even undesirable for them to lose, so instability does not emerge in a nuclear power,”

“Who believes that Putin would calmly accept the confiscation of Russian assets? Moscow has made it clear that if that happens, Belgium—and I personally—will face the consequences ‘forever.’ "

Even Chamberlain would be disgusted with the Belgian Prime Minister Bart De Wever. With leaders like this weak foolish coward no wonder Putin and Trump regard Europe with contempt.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Belgium Opposes Seizing Russian Assets, Says Moscow’s Defeat Is “a Fairy Tale”

Belgium's Prime Minister discusses the complexities around frozen Russian assets and the challenges posed by Russia's unwavering stance in Ukraine.

united24media.com

“Who genuinely believes that Russia is losing in Ukraine? Russia is not losing. That is a fairy tale, an illusion. And it is even undesirable for them to lose, so instability does not emerge in a nuclear power,”

“Who believes that Putin would calmly accept the confiscation of Russian assets? Moscow has made it clear that if that happens, Belgium—and I personally—will face the consequences ‘forever.’ "

Even Chamberlain would be disgusted with the Belgian Prime Minister Bart De Wever. With leaders like this weak foolish coward no wonder Putin and Trump regard Europe with contempt.

Belgium didn't put up much resistance in the 2nd world war when it was invaded by Nazi Germany, so probably won't if russia invades it.

 

[barreness]

Fleeing Russian Bombs, Ukrainian Orphans Faced Abuse and Neglect in Turkish Hotels​

For the Ukrainian children huddled in the basement of the Horlytsia orphanage as Russian bombs exploded around them in February 2022, evacuation sounded like a dream come true.​

It's amazing that you and I can both agree that this is horrible, and inexcusable.


But when Russia does it, you defend it as taking kids out of harms way on the firing line.
You now find it excusable.

From the exact same site you've just used to support your position on this...
https://www.occrp.org/en/news/un-re...eturn-forcibly-transferred-ukrainian-children

UN Resolution Urges Russia to Return 'Forcibly Transferred' Ukrainian Children​

The move highlights years of forced transfers amid mounting international concern over Russia’s conduct in Ukraine.​

​

The UN General Assembly has demanded that Russia return Ukrainian children who have been separated from their families and taken to Russia since 2014, when Moscow seized Crimea.​

​

In a newly adopted resolution—passed with 91 votes in favor, 12 against, and 57 abstentions—the UN called on Russia to “ensure the immediate, safe, and unconditional return of all Ukrainian children who have been forcibly transferred or deported.”​

​

The resolution claims Moscow’s actions violate international law, which prohibits the “forcible transfer or deportation of protected persons from occupied territory.”​

​

“It is unimaginable that someone could view children as war trophies,” said Ukraine’s deputy Foreign Minister, Mariana Betsa. She said at least 20,000 Ukrainian children have been deported to Russia. Russia rejected the resolution, with its ambassador, Maria Zabolotskaya, calling it a “particularly cynical lie.”​

The Ukrainian government says several hundred thousand children have been forcibly taken to Russia, with more than 19,000 cases identified. Experts at Yale University estimate that 35,000 children have been taken from Ukraine to more than 100 locations in Russia and Russian-occupied territories.

The several 100k comes from kids (with and without) parents in total. Asking a kid with parents living in Crimea to be transferred to Ukraine is silly, or refugee families that went east instead of west

The 19/20k comes from the estimate of the orphans in the separatist held regions prior to 2022. Kids who have lived under Ukraine shelling for 8 years and whose parents may have been killed by them.

When asked for a list of the children that Russia had kidnapped in 2025, Ukraine came up with 339 names.

The yale report states
Yale HRL has identified 314 individual children assessed to high confidence to have been taken from Ukraine and placed in Russia’s program of coerced adoption and fostering since February 2022.
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-arti...-adoption-and-fostering-of-ukraines-children/

1892 children have been returned when parents or guardians rock up to Russia to reclaim them
https://childrenofwar.gov.ua/en/

These are the numbers as best as I can ascertain. Does that change your assessment?

So what's your position on this? Is it inexcusable in both instances? OR... is it justified because it's just Russia trying to protect kids from the frontlines...?
Maybe you'd argue that it would have been better for the kids if Russia had taken them?

What do you think should happen to the kids who were Ukrainian orphans from the occupied regions?(this some 20k). If it's clear shipping them back results in dodgy charities* and being sent to Turkey then putting them through Russian schooling/camps/orphanages/foster/adoption is probably a better option

*The entire civil service bar military is funded by the foreign donors(mainly EU)