List Mgmt. 2025 List Management III 📃

[Soapy V]

I am less concerned about the ability, by foot, of most of our squad than I am by the execution.

I firmly believe that we have some excellent kicks who regularly miss too many targets. What is undersold is the angles provided by the targets, and if indeed there are genuine targets offering. Too many leads are to difficult spots needing players to kick across their bodies, or worse fabricate a kick on the outside of a foot.

We miss too many targets due to poor weighting of passes. Drills need to be varied to include a variety of angles. We also have been poor at creating space to allow a comfortable kick with a little margin for error. Not enough decoys or blocks utilised. We were much better at this in the last month of the season (post “kick it to Charlie”)

As for your assessments Soapy, I have always rated Williams highly and have similar thoughts to you about McGovern, the bloke is a very talented footballer, including kicking, but too often plays like a millionaire with his choices.

Yep. I see it as combination of structure/game style and skill. We don't have the best kicking side (although improving a lot this year) but with our game plan what could we expect. I just hope we are doing a heap of work on skills and new structure

 

[DirkDiggler]

Few people gone with Williams. I never rated him a very good kick of the ball

As for McGovern. He can be but can be lazy and tries to do too much so I rule him out

Must admit he is an excellent shot for goal

 

[goreds]

There are some very interesting kicking assessments on here…

Fell free to expand on this comment. I'm invested in this part of our list (lack of).

 

[goreds]

Who’s our best 5 kickers?

I’m thinking
1.Cottrell
2.Boyd
3.Florent
4.Zac
5.Cerra

1 Elijah
2 Newman
3 Chesser
4 Moir
5 Carroll

Lets go to the other end (poor):

1 Ollie
2 Kemp
3 Campo
4 Campo
5 Walsh

*don't give me garbage stats either (I want my footballers to hit targets on the run and stationery), this is eye test, which is real!

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session​

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session

A Blues session has been doing the rounds on social media.

www.sen.com.au

 

[Crippa#9]

Re Sam Walsh.

I think a 5 year deal @ $1.2 per year (higher offers will come) and the captaincy next year seems about right.The only issue is injury.

He's worth more than that.
Have heard West Coast (of all teams!) have $10m / 7 years for him.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

1 Elijah
2 Newman
3 Chesser
4 Moir
5 Carroll

Lets go to the other end (poor):

1 Ollie
2 Kemp
3 Campo
4 Campo
5 Walsh

*don't give me garbage stats either (I want my footballers to hit targets on the run and stationery), this is eye test, which is real!

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session​

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session

A Blues session has been doing the rounds on social media.

www.sen.com.au

"this is eye test, which is real!"


"Eyewitness testimony is frequently unreliable due to the malleable nature of human memory, which is easily distorted by stress, weapon focus, cross-racial identification challenges, and suggestion, rather than acting like a perfect video recording. Studies show over 60-75% of wrongful convictions overturned by DNA evidence involved eyewitness misidentification.

 

[JJBagger]

1 Elijah
2 Newman
3 Chesser
4 Moir
5 Carroll

Lets go to the other end (poor):

1 Ollie
2 Kemp
3 Campo
4 Campo
5 Walsh

*don't give me garbage stats either (I want my footballers to hit targets on the run and stationery), this is eye test, which is real!

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session​

“Awful”: The most alarming part of Carlton’s viral training session

A Blues session has been doing the rounds on social media.

www.sen.com.au

The eye test isn’t an objective measurement, so you can’t say it’s “real” for anyone other than the person making the judgement

 

[goreds]

"this is eye test, which is real!"


"Eyewitness testimony is frequently unreliable due to the malleable nature of human memory, which is easily distorted by stress, weapon focus, cross-racial identification challenges, and suggestion, rather than acting like a perfect video recording. Studies show over 60-75% of wrongful convictions overturned by DNA evidence involved eyewitness misidentification.

Love the legal argument!

I see a stat often from the GWS numbers on kicking...

Accuracy and the percentages that come from that. Its a system which is used by most clubs and by the stats nerds in the industry. Along side this, they have their own nerds who measure the kicks against distance, weight of pass, kicking to advantage (to the left or right or run on).

The elite of the elite excel in all measurements and the eye test (what people think when watching) is almost always right. In other words, a beautiful kick is a beautiful kick.

When the stats get involved it skews the figures, e.g., a said defender will kick the ball 10 times a game, 8 will go to the winger who is usually leading straight at them or towards the boundary, they will hit him 5 of the 8 times. Sounds good right??? WRONG. There is no advantage other than possession, but the stats merchants will count this as a win! Why is it not a win in the eyes of the club, because its a high percentage kick which most clubs are happy to give up.

The 2 Lachies, Whitfield and Ash are elite because of the kicks they pull off.

Newman is our closest to these 2...

 

[RAPPA]

Who are our best 5 kickers v who are the 5 players that back themselves in for the aggressive kicks.

Sadly a few of the players on the latter list are actually BOG average or below average kickers

 

[goreds]

The eye test isn’t an objective measurement, so you can’t say it’s “real” for anyone other than the person making the judgement

I prefaced that point with 'don't give me garbage stats'...

Easy eye test for the concerned out there!

• Ben Allen
• Greg Williams
• Bailey Dale
• Max Holmes
• Lachie Whitfield
• Buddy Franklin
• Darren Jarman
• Ang Christou
• Craig Bradley
• Eddie Betts
• Heath Scotland

You don't need stats to know these guys were/are elite by foot. Why?? They are fed the ball to take THAT kick...

You don't need stats to know these guys will get a tag/heavy marker to force them onto opposite foot or block their run. This is what eye test looks like, especially in the junior world!

Simple question, which will reflect your own 'eye' test, unless you are a stats nerd!

How do you feel when Ollie gets the ball by himself and he is heading towards center wing after a bounce at top speed and about to let go of a 40 meter pass to a leading small forward running from L to R or R to L in his vision (not directly at him) v Newman/Elijah in the same position??

I would prepare for the worst and hope for the best if it is Ollie.

That's eye test...

 

[JJBagger]

I prefaced that point with 'don't give me garbage stats'...

Easy eye test for the concerned out there!

• Ben Allen
• Greg Williams
• Bailey Dale
• Max Holmes
• Lachie Whitfield
• Buddy Franklin
• Darren Jarman
• Ang Christou
• Craig Bradley
• Eddie Betts
• Heath Scotland

You don't need stats to know these guys were/are elite by foot. Why?? They are fed the ball to take THAT kick...

You don't need stats to know these guys will get a tag/heavy marker to force them onto opposite foot or block their run. This is what eye test looks like, especially in the junior world!

Simple question, which will reflect your own 'eye' test, unless you are a stats nerd!

How do you feel when Ollie gets the ball by himself and he is heading towards center wing after a bounce at top speed and about to let go of a 40 meter pass to a leading small forward running from L to R or R to L in his vision (not directly at him) v Newman/Elijah in the same position??

I would prepare for the worst and hope for the best if it is Ollie.

That's eye test...

I’m not a “stats nerd”. Not sure how much of the grand final you watched, but Max Holmes looked like he’d never kicked a football before. His kicking was beyond dreadful. Based on that eye test, the argument can be made he is an overrated kick.

Again, saying “how do you feel….” is a subjective point, feeling is all dependent on the person you’re asking it too. Sounds like you fear Ollie’s kicking more than I do, I think he’s fine without being elite. Doesn’t mean either of us are wrong, because it’s completely subjective

 

[goreds]

He's worth more than that.
Have heard West Coast (of all teams!) have $10m / 7 years for him.

They can have him, as long as we can offer Harley the same to come the other way!

 

[marcmurphy3]

He's worth more than that.
Have heard West Coast (of all teams!) have $10m / 7 years for him.

0 chance he goes to West Coast. I think if he leaves us success will be a bigger factor then money. He'll get good offers from multiple clubs.

I could see us offering him 9m for 7 years, so the WC offer isn't even that ridiculous.

 

[Benaly28]

We all know it’s the Cats if he leaves

 

[Jacks Seething Rage]

There are some very interesting kicking assessments on here…

There is.

Exposed form is a crucial factor. Training and game day are quite different things.

 

[goreds]

I’m not a “stats nerd”. Not sure how much of the grand final you watched, but Max Holmes looked like he’d never kicked a football before. His kicking was beyond dreadful. Based on that eye test, the argument can be made he is an overrated kick.

Again, saying “how do you feel….” is a subjective point, feeling is all dependent on the person you’re asking it too. Sounds like you fear Ollie’s kicking more than I do, I think he’s fine without being elite. Doesn’t mean either of us are wrong, because it’s completely subjective

All good JJ, and yes I know you're not a stat nerd!

I think you've cemented my thoughts in relation to the current accepted level of kicking at our club.

Not sure the eye test covers 1 game! I would take Max over both Holland brothers at the same time, to play on the wing!

I get slammed regularly when I slam players for their lack of ability, so I thought I would try and be more socially accepted and use words like 'feel' to get in touch with my empathic side! Clearly not going well for me

I might go back to the old me for a minute, Ollie is a rubbish kick and that's why he is not on the wing. We will not get any better unless we FIX our kicking problems.

Good ordinary players that can kick are MUCH better than good ordinary players that can run...

 

[juzza316]

He's worth more than that.
Have heard West Coast (of all teams!) have $10m / 7 years for him.

$10m / 7 years for Walsh makes the TDK deal look not so bad.

 

[marcmurphy3]

$10m / 7 years for Walsh makes the TDK deal look not so bad.

TDK deal ended up being close to 15m over 8 years. Think that one is still worse.

Walsh is much more bankable then TDK plus a leader. Only issue is his back (though TDK is arguably even less durable).

I think Walsh gets multiple 7-8yr offers from >1.3m a year. Our deal will probably be around that but wont be the biggest offer.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Tackles inside F50 tell me you're better at following a player than finding your own ball.

Give me better delivery to open targets every day of the week.

F50 tackles are plan B and nothing to base a premiership side on.

Id counter argue that it shouldn't be a forwards role to "find your own ball". If we were better at entering the 50, then we mightnt have a need for such defensive fwd pressure.

Fog was good for us in our 2023 run and made a big difference at the feet of two talented talls - in a depleted forward line more recently he's been exposed for being a bit of a one trick pony.

He'll need to improve his offensive side of he wants to lock a permanent spot in the new group.

 

[ctwenty1]

Still yapping about a training session from nearly two weeks ago?

Boys looked ok at training and in the match sim last Friday

And here is MyBlueHeavan's summary of that session for those who may want to move on from one part of one training session two week's ago...

 

[Coona Blues]

All good JJ, and yes I know you're not a stat nerd!

I think you've cemented my thoughts in relation to the current accepted level of kicking at our club.

Not sure the eye test covers 1 game! I would take Max over both Holland brothers at the same time, to play on the wing!

I get slammed regularly when I slam players for their lack of ability, so I thought I would try and be more socially accepted and use words like 'feel' to get in touch with my empathic side! Clearly not going well for me

I might go back to the old me for a minute, Ollie is a rubbish kick and that's why he is not on the wing. We will not get any better unless we FIX our kicking problems.

Good ordinary players that can kick are MUCH better than good ordinary players that can run...

I don’t particularly like conflict, but cannot let slide comments that call our players or even their traits as rubbish.

I equate Ollie Hollands very much to Sam Docherty in terms of kicking. Doc was a superb kick…at times, but was prone to some absolute clangers. Ollie is the same. His “percentages” are actually quite good, at times bordering on the overused word elite. I am not one eyed enough to label Ollie as elite, but much of his kicking is excellent. He is absolutely one who is often in two minds due to lack of good options up the field which is often when he is “rubbish”. Confidence is a wonderful thing and having clear and realistic targets and structures adds significantly in that area.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Love the legal argument!

I see a stat often from the GWS numbers on kicking...

Accuracy and the percentages that come from that. Its a system which is used by most clubs and by the stats nerds in the industry. Along side this, they have their own nerds who measure the kicks against distance, weight of pass, kicking to advantage (to the left or right or run on).

The elite of the elite excel in all measurements and the eye test (what people think when watching) is almost always right. In other words, a beautiful kick is a beautiful kick.

When the stats get involved it skews the figures, e.g., a said defender will kick the ball 10 times a game, 8 will go to the winger who is usually leading straight at them or towards the boundary, they will hit him 5 of the 8 times. Sounds good right??? WRONG. There is no advantage other than possession, but the stats merchants will count this as a win! Why is it not a win in the eyes of the club, because its a high percentage kick which most clubs are happy to give up.

The 2 Lachies, Whitfield and Ash are elite because of the kicks they pull off.

Newman is our closest to these 2...

Its not a legal argument - it is a matter of fact. You will "see" all the kicks that support your position and ignore (or downplay) the ones that oppose it.

I am not saying you shouldn't use the eye test but only using the eye test is as skewed as only using stats. You need to be able to look at both and understand their limitations.

 

[goreds]

I don’t particularly like conflict, but cannot let slide comments that call our players or even their traits as rubbish.

I equate Ollie Hollands very much to Sam Docherty in terms of kicking. Doc was a superb kick…at times, but was prone to some absolute clangers. Ollie is the same. His “percentages” are actually quite good, at times bordering on the overused word elite. I am not one eyed enough to label Ollie as elite, but much of his kicking is excellent. He is absolutely one who is often in two minds due to lack of good options up the field which is often when he is “rubbish”. Confidence is a wonderful thing and having clear and realistic targets and structures adds significantly in that area.

All good Coona, I don't mind a bit of conflict but in this case, I'm a fan of your opinions (most of the time ) so I will let it slide...

As I said in my post, I'm trying to be more empathetic when discussing the ability of our players, as it is no longer acceptable to rip off the Band-Aid in todays society.

I'll just say this, if it looks like a duck......

Everyone must get a ribbon now days and I'm trying real hard to find the 'inclusive' side in me to hand them out!

 

[goreds]

Its not a legal argument - it is a matter of fact. You will "see" all the kicks that support your position and ignore (or downplay) the ones that oppose it.

I am not saying you shouldn't use the eye test but only using the eye test is as skewed as only using stats. You need to be able to look at both and understand their limitations.

Pretty much what I discribed in my post.

Thanks for agreeing with me...

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Pretty much what I discribed in my post.

Thanks for agreeing with me...

If you say so