Opinion Geelong's era of dominance over

[Robroy22]

I was actually referring to the two awards voted by players and coaches:

Player's MVP:
Voss - 2
Bontempelli - 3

Coach's MVP:
Voss - 0
Bontempelli - 1

To be fair the Coach's award only started in 2003, so didn't cover all of Voss' career. But for longevity I'd be picking Bont every day.

And if we use these measures Nick Daicos has won a Players and a Coaches MVP in four seasons.....

And I'd be the first to admit that Nick's not even the best player in his own family YET.....A premium Voss would destroy today's Mids

 

[Pencil case]

The only "awards" that Bont would match Voss in would be media awards. Put the pill in between them and Voss is gonna get it. Bont's a smooth mover for sure (he's all class) but in finals and big games....those mongrels like Voss are gonna get blokes like Bont 9 times outta ten.

Bont would match up with Simon Black and Richards maybe with Aker....but Libba as hard as he'd try...he's not getting anywhere near those top 3-4 Lions.

Now adding Butters would even it up a bit more, but I still reckon the Lion's mids of that era would just find a way, especially with their big hard hitting rucks belting the living daylights out of Timmy English.

Comparing Voss to Bont is honestly insulting, Voss was one of the best of his time, Bont is one of the best ever.

 

[raspberry5]

Never replaced Hawkins.
Can't replace Dangerfield or Cameron.

They are in a position where they desperately need a player like Butters to nominate them to keep finishing finals. Doggies are the better choice though because they have the better youth.

 

[Partridge]

What irks footy fans more than anything these past 20 years is Geelong's continuing competitiveness and it gives opposition fans the sh*ts. They have always defied the odds, but this season feels different, we've already seen the Grand Finalists play and there really is only the Lions, Suns, Giants, Dogs and Swans in it. I can't see any other team realistically challenging them. Geelong certainly won't be...

It's important to recognise the big trades that Geelong did augmented already strong lists. It was never the case that we had a weak squad and one star changed everything (those days are long gone).

When Ottens arrived we'd just reached a Prelim final so we already had a promising and still relatively young list. Thankfully it all clicked in 2007. Dangerfield was traded after we missed the finals in 2015 and a few veterans had either gone or were finishing up (Corey finished in 2013, Johnson and Kelly in 2015, Johnson in 2016). But we still had a prime Hawkins and a prime Selwood. Then when Cameron was brought in Hawkins, Selwood, and now Dangerfield were still around. We had Hawkins and Selwood as the cornerstones of the team for a long, long time.

Now for the first time both are gone and the core quality veterans are Cameron, Dangerfield, and Stewart, and only Cameron is still producing consistently. So it's more of an unknown than it has been for a while. To me it isn't about the stars (or so called stars) and how they go, it's going to be the second tier - Atkins, Close, Miers, Mannagh - how they go, and how much Holmes and Smith can do in midfield. If they all perform well we'll be fine. If not, it might be interesting.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's important to recognise the big trades that Geelong did augmented already strong lists. It was never the case that we had a weak squad and one star changed everything (those days are long gone).

When Ottens arrived we'd just reached a Prelim final so we already had a promising and still relatively young list. Thankfully it all clicked in 2007. Dangerfield was traded after we missed the finals in 2015 and a few veterans had either gone or were finishing up (Corey finished in 2013, Johnson and Kelly in 2015, Johnson in 2016). But we still had a prime Hawkins and a prime Selwood. Then when Cameron was brought in Hawkins, Selwood, and now Dangerfield were still around. We had Hawkins and Selwood as the cornerstones of the team for a long, long time.

Now for the first time both are gone and the core quality veterans are Cameron, Dangerfield, and Stewart, and only Cameron is still producing consistently. So it's more of an unknown than it has been for a while. To me it isn't about the stars (or so called stars) and how they go, it's going to be the second tier - Atkins, Close, Miers, Mannagh - how they go, and how much Holmes and Smith can do in midfield. If they all perform well we'll be fine. If not, it might be interesting.

Yeah I don’t see one trade instantly - if we were to fall down the ladder this year - bringing us back up it. Neale would have to become a consistent 50 goal forward and the jury is out on whether that is possible. O’Sullivan would need to become a dependable lynchpin at the back which I do think is a likelihood but might be a while away. Dempsey needs to be a little bit more of a game breaker rather than a game finisher. There’s probably enough decent pieces there but a little bit more would have to go right than just ‘getting so and so in.’

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Yeah I don’t see one trade instantly - if we were to fall down the ladder this year - bringing us back up it. Neale would have to become a consistent 50 goal forward and the jury is out on whether that is possible. O’Sullivan would need to become a dependable lynchpin at the back which I do think is a likelihood but might be a while away. Dempsey needs to be a little bit more of a game breaker rather than a game finisher. There’s probably enough decent pieces there but a little bit more would have to go right than just ‘getting so and so in.’

Agree. If we were to fall this year, I'd see us more as a side with a couple of down years before potentially jumping up again.

We'd probably have to wait for the likes of Holmes, Smith, Neale, Humphries, Dempsey, Neale, Bruhn, SDK, O'Sullivan etc to all be in that 23-28 range, while simultaneously ensuring a few of the younger guys/draftees get 50 games under their belt.

It's the balancing act of trying to connect two eras. If the older era falls off, you might need a gap year (or three) before the younger era can take the reigns completely themselves.

It's all just guesswork at this point, but on nothing but one game, that's probably where I'd see it going if it was to occur.

 

[My Tilly]

It's all just guesswork at this point, but on nothing but one game

It's not one game.

The manner in which the club were lifeless against Carlton in the preseason hit-out which in turn rolled into the Gold Coast clash, that is four losses on the trot going back to last year's embarrassing performance in the grand final.

This is the first time ever I have felt like the cliff has arrived.
Not enough talent in the team and some of our younger players are as poor as I can remember coming through.

 

[Mr Meow]

It's not one game.

The manner in which the club were lifeless against Carlton in the preseason hit-out which in turn rolled into the Gold Coast clash, that is four losses on the trot going back to last year's embarrassing performance in the grand final.

This is the first time ever I have felt like the cliff has arrived.
Not enough talent in the team and some of our younger players are as poor as I can remember coming through.

Where are you drawing the line for young players? 2014 through 2020 was pretty dire for young players at Geelong (as you'd expect really, but lots of failed first round picks too).

Also, pre-season matches mean nothing. We have had one real game this season.

 

[RAPPA]

It's not one game.

The manner in which the club were lifeless against Carlton in the preseason hit-out which in turn rolled into the Gold Coast clash, that is four losses on the trot going back to last year's embarrassing performance in the grand final.

This is the first time ever I have felt like the cliff has arrived.
Not enough talent in the team and some of our younger players are as poor as I can remember coming through.

I wouldn't be taking anything out of the Carlton game. Carlton rolled the two premiers of last year in pre-season, yet have been dominated in the second half of both games to start the season, including against a bottom 4 team.

GF performance is an outlier imo.

Also, opening games have been known to involve upsets or uncharacteristic performances. Last year Pies got smashed by 52 points against the Giants, were then written off and then made the PF.

 

[joe444]

Odd fact about us (2021-2025)
Win% first half of the season: 59.0%
Win% second half of the season: 73.5%

So you may want to wait until round 13 to write us off, no matter how poorly we start (which I think we will)

 

[My Tilly]

Where are you drawing the line for young players? 2014 through 2020 was pretty dire for young players at Geelong (as you'd expect really, but lots of failed first round picks too).

Also, pre-season matches mean nothing. We have had one real game this season.

I think the list we had in 2014-2018 was better than the one we have now.

Hawkins, Selwood, Taylor at ages 25-27 were better than our best three players today listed 25-27 years of age.
The younger core group in Stewart, Kolodjashnij, Menegola, Duncan, Guthrie, Caddy were no different to the likes of Dempsey, Humphries, Neale, Bruhn, De Koning, Henry.

The inclusion of Jeremy Cameron had single-handedly altered Geelong's fortunes. We don't sign him up and I think we are looking at a much different situation.
309 goals in 109 games.
He has one or two good years left and we are in dire straits after that.

 

[Mr Meow]

I think the list we had in 2014-2018 was better than the one we have now.

Hawkins, Selwood, Taylor at ages 25-27 were better than our best three players today listed 25-27 years of age.
The younger core group in Stewart, Kolodjashnij, Menegola, Duncan, Guthrie, Caddy were no different to the likes of Dempsey, Humphries, Neale, Bruhn, De Koning, Henry.

The inclusion of Jeremy Cameron had single-handedly altered Geelong's fortunes. We don't sign him up and I think we are looking at a much different situation.
309 goals in 109 games.
He has one or two good years left and we are in dire straits after that.

I agree about the loss of Cameron and that we had better top-end players in their prime most of those years.

I think we've been fighting against the odds to have decent youth for a long time. It's impossible to have outstanding youth unless you really sink down the ladder for a while and/or get lucky with a cluster of top father-son's.

If our list was better then, does it mean we badly under achieved with that list or overachieved with this one? Remember, only Brisbane have proven better than us the past 2 years when it counts. 2014-2018 we lost to Hawthorn, NM, Sydney, Richmond and Adelaide in finals - 4 of those were beltings. Plus we missed finals in 2015.

 

[My Tilly]

I agree about the loss of Cameron and that we had better top-end players in their prime most of those years.

I think we've been fighting against the odds to have decent youth for a long time. It's impossible to have outstanding youth unless you really sink down the ladder for a while and/or get lucky with a cluster of top father-son's.

If our list was better then, does it mean we badly under achieved with that list or overachieved with this one? Remember, only Brisbane have proven better than us the past 2 years when it counts. 2014-2018 we lost to Hawthorn, NM, Sydney, Richmond and Adelaide in finals - 4 of those were beltings. Plus we missed finals in 2015.

Really have underachieved for a good decade now.
I can't remember exactly but the amount of top four finishes where we've had a dream fixture in opening week of finals and failed to capitalise has been damming.
Even in 2024, we couldn't have had it setup any better and has often been the case with Geelong, they pissed it away.

Last year takes the cake. Two brilliant finals performances. Rested up and against a battered and bruised opponent and another capitulation on the biggest stage.

One premiership from three attempts the last six years is going to linger for decades to come.

 

[Mr Meow]

Really have underachieved for a good decade now.
I can't remember exactly but the amount of top four finishes where we've had a dream fixture in opening week of finals and failed to capitalise has been damming.
Even in 2024, we couldn't have had it setup any better and has often been the case with Geelong, they pissed it away.

Last year takes the cake. Two brilliant finals performances. Rested up and against a battered and bruised opponent and another capitulation on the biggest stage.

One premiership from three attempts the last six years is going to linger for decades to come.

You said we had better lists 2014-2018 but 5 different teams belted us in finals. I forgot about Melbourne in my last post. Only 2 of them became premiers. And we lost a final to North!

2024-2025 only the premiers beat us, 2 out of 3 finals. So this list must be way outperforming the group you rated more highly, that had "better youth" too. They then went on to lose to Port (twice!) and Collingwood in finals as well. Neither of those even made it to a grand final those seasons.

 

[My Tilly]

You said we had better lists 2014-2018 but 5 different teams belted us in finals. I forgot about Melbourne in my last post. Only 2 of them became premiers. And we lost a final to North!

2024-2025 only the premiers beat us, 2 out of 3 finals. So this list must be way outperforming the group you rated more highly, that had "better youth" too. They then went on to lose to Port (twice!) and Collingwood in finals as well. Neither of those even made it to a grand final those seasons.

I don't want to get into semantics about specific finals and belting we may have copped.

2013 - current, we have finished 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd.
There have been 12 individual All-Australians.
You can't deny Geelong have not made the most of their opportunities during this period of time. One premiership is excellent but teams such as Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Collingwood & Melbourne have capitalized on limited opportunities.

Only the Sydney Swans surpass Geelong when it comes to missed opportunities given they have had similar talented lists/top four finishes for only one premiership out of five attempts.

 

[Mr Meow]

I don't want to get into semantics about specific finals and belting we may have copped.

2013 - current, we have finished 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd.
There have been 12 individual All-Australians.
You can't deny Geelong have not made the most of their opportunities during this period of time. One premiership is excellent but teams such as Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Collingwood & Melbourne have capitalized on limited opportunities.

Only the Sydney Swans surpass Geelong when it comes to missed opportunities given they have had similar talented lists/top four finishes for only one premiership win out of five attempts.

You didn't respond to any points I made (and those addressed your initial comments), you keep getting sidetracked.

The current list has vastly outperformed the older sides you highlighted as stronger. As you have said yourself, this Geelong team has arguably the worst midfield in the comp, so-so youth and no stars in their prime. Yet only the premiers have proven better the past 2 seasons (once by a smidge and once comfortably).

You have essentially been labelling Geelong a non finals level side for a while now, so by definition the more recent lists have been outperforming expectations. The 2013-2020 lists you certified as much stronger got belted by stacks of different teams in finals - not just the premiers.

Geelong have finished 1st twice 2013-current have won a single premiership so yes, we are probably 1 flag short. The 2019 team peaked early, had a so-so forward line and then missed Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan in the prelim. That was a missed opportunity.

P.S the past 2 seasons our only All Australian winner was Cameron. It's not a team of stars or serious firepower.

 

[My Tilly]

You didn't respond to any points I made (and those addressed your initial comments), you keep getting sidetracked.

Spin it anyway you like.

I'm telling you Geelong have failed to capitalize on winning more silverware over the last 20 years. Hell' you can even point to 2008 as yet another prime example of this.

Teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Brisbane are examples of teams making the most of every opportunity handed to them.

Geelong are starting to head toward the Collingwood-zone. A team synonymous with the wobbles.

 

[Mr Meow]

Spin it anyway you like.

I'm telling you Geelong have failed to capitalize on winning more silverware over the last 20 years. Hell' you can even point to 2008 as yet another prime example of this.

Now you're talking about 2008.

We are talking about how our 2022-2025 lists have performed in finals relative to the 2013-2021 group that were belted by stacks of different teams in finals, with - as you said - much stronger lists.

I bet you didn't think Geelong would make it to a prelim and grand final heading into the previous 2 seasons. I know you didn't expect much heading into 2022. You have consistently labelled us a poor side with an awful midfield during that time. Thus they have been outperforming your expectations. Only one side, the premiers, has bested this poor Geelong side. Yet you're acting as if they should have won a stack of recent flags. The sides from a decade or more ago are a different conversation.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Spin it anyway you like.

I'm telling you Geelong have failed to capitalize on winning more silverware over the last 20 years. Hell' you can even point to 2008 as yet another prime example of this.

Teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Brisbane are examples of teams making the most of every opportunity handed to them.

Geelong are starting to head toward the Collingwood-zone. A team synonymous with the wobbles.

I've contemplated this a bit over the years.

The ones that I thought got away from us that we could or should have won were in my opinion 2008, 2013 and 2024, noting that two of those we didn't make the GF.

The GF losses (other than 08) since 1989 in my mind have all been to better teams

 

[Partridge]

I've contemplated this a bit over the years.

The ones that I thought got away from us that we could or should have won were in my opinion 2008, 2013 and 2024, noting that two of those we didn't make the GF.

The GF losses (other than 08) since 1989 in my mind have all been to better teams

Pretty close to mine. Although I don't include 2024. Brisbane were just too good when it mattered, same as last year.

2008 and 2013 are the two clear winners for me.

 

[demondavey]

I've contemplated this a bit over the years.

The ones that I thought got away from us that we could or should have won were in my opinion 2008, 2013 and 2024, noting that two of those we didn't make the GF.

The GF losses (other than 08) since 1989 in my mind have all been to better teams

You should have won one of 17,19,20. The QF in 2017 was so in the balance and whilst Richmond went on to win 3 of the next 4 you had the chance to break them in 17. You were up in the 2019 PF and in the 2020 GF. Chris Scott made some awful choices at selection and during games.

No way Richmond were better in all those flag years. They literally relied on Martin playing blinders in those games.

 

[JHF1870]

We're finally starting to see this story unfold. To their credit Geelong have held off for so long.

 

[Former Decathlete]

And if we use these measures Nick Daicos has won a Players and a Coaches MVP in four seasons.....

And I'd be the first to admit that Nick's not even the best player in his own family YET.....A premium Voss would destroy today's Mids

Why are we talking about Daicos in a Geelong thread.
FFS. You can't help yourselves

There is already plenty of other threads for you to pull your pudding over Daicos.

Mods should be able delete the crap that is way off topic Chief

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Spin it anyway you like.

I'm telling you Geelong have failed to capitalize on winning more silverware over the last 20 years. Hell' you can even point to 2008 as yet another prime example of this.

Teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Brisbane are examples of teams making the most of every opportunity handed to them.

Geelong are starting to head toward the Collingwood-zone. A team synonymous with the wobbles.

All 3 clubs have lost PF/GF's (plural) in the 2000s just as we have. So they can't have made the most of every opportunity.

 

[projectv]

Few posts have been deleted since half time.