Player Watch #11: Jason Castagna - signed to 2023

[Mogwai]

I think it’s as simple as low confidence because he’s badly out of form that’s his skills are suffering. Like you say he’s working hard enough but it’s just not coming together for him. No harm him going back to VFL level to get some form back. Butler went back and had a good game.

What form back? This is his average form LOL

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Two different types of players...Bolton and Georgie...
One will eventually and hopefully, all going well, end up playing mid and Sheds role...the other a cracking half forward...
One is finesse and light on his feet the other relies on his physicality and speed to create opportunities for others...
Both can fly for the speccie...
Georgie is in front in my book at the moment simply because he can and does absorb physical pressure and see out 4 quarters of contested footy...

 

[Grrr]

Higgins had been our best small forward until last Saturday. He was a liability in front of goal last year but sorted it out during the summer, unlike Castagna who skill issues appear unfixable. Higgins is going fine.

Not questioning his place in the side right now, more wondering what his upside will be given that he is often spruiked as the next big thing. Wish he was quicker as he is a real footballer.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well put. He is chaos in the fwd line. and I reckon our flag was built on that. Port game was the first one for a while where we looked like the Tigers of 2017. Chaotic fwd line. I thought George's first qtr. was great. I have to rewatch the game to to focus on the other 3 qtrs. I like that Shai is in the middle. Lambo & Prestia were both good. I hope Shai stays in the middle. And I didn't focus on Baker. I hope that both George and Baker stay in. And only a midfielder comes out for Dusty. The team seemed to be on autopilot last year. I'm glad all this chaos has been inflicted on our list because it is the only way Baker, Bolton, Ross, SS would get a game.

Jesus, you don't know how long I have waited for the George Baker selection issue to come up in one sentence so that I could legitimately post this:

 

[Cdog71]

Bolton was fantastic on the weekend and will only get better. He is a one touch player who can get the ball in the heat and give it to someone in a better position, like Stack. Shane Edwards was nowhere near the calibre of these two at the same age and look at him now. Class players. He will have some quiet games but so does Castagna and Butler.
I like Castagna, he gives great pressure and is important in our forward half because of his speed. He will always have to play at his best because the wolves are snapping at his heels. Look at Butler right now. I know this is heresy on here, but I think Higgins is not the next coming due to his lack of speed. I can't see much upside.

AO is weird skinny oval and we beat em cause of a better spine, flanks and wanted to win more. We haven’t scored too much from ground balls in fwd 50,
I agree Higgins got a bit lost in the crowd over there and couldn’t get any seperation but he seems to do better on the bigger grounds when he’s got more space.
Dunno who’d win in a foot race out’ve him and Caddy

 

[Cdog71]

I flip flop on George every few games, skills are atrocious and every game there’s at least one moment I shake my head in disbelief, sometimes for great things.
It’s almost like Dimma’s happy throwin a Human Hand Grenade in the Fwd line just to keep everyone on their toes

 

[CholEstrol]

I flip flop on George every few games, skills are atrocious and every game there’s at least one moment I shake my head in disbelief, sometimes for great things.
It’s almost like Dimma’s happy throwin a Human Hand Grenade in the Fwd line just to keep everyone on their toes

this. he frustrates me but he terrorises the oppo defence. I still like him in the first 22. Capable of a bag of goals if he can bloody kick straight.

 

[tropicaltiger]

Thought JC was OK, cept for that wayward HB, set up some nice goals with neat gathers and bullocking in heavy traffic and gave to players in the clear who banged em thru. had him down for 3 direct assists. kicking needs work.

 

[Tiger71]

Jesus the lack of respect and what he actually does for the side is sad. George gets picked when fit every game for one simple reason He adds chaos and unpredictability to our forward line, he also creates huge amounts of pressure. His disposal is average but the amount of goals that initially start from his possession is freaky.

He is also into his second game, and had a very limited preseason. Thank god the coaching group rates his work rate and what that work rate brings to the side

 

[Willo_23]

He absolutely stays in, he has the odd hair-pulling moment but his pressure is key to our forward set up, and will be especially true when we have both Riewoldt and Lynch up there.

I think it's a fight between Bolton and Butler for that extra spot in the forward line. Have been really disappointed with Butler so far this season so it's good to see him in the twos to pick up some confidence.

Bolton can give us everything Butler can for the time being, plus offer a little bit for us aerially as well. He's got the much higher upside and I really hope we give him a decent run in the ones to see exactly what he can do.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Jesus the lack of respect and what he actually does for the side is sad. George gets picked when fit every game for one simple reason He adds chaos and unpredictability to our forward line, he also creates huge amounts of pressure. His disposal is average but the amount of goals that initially start from his possession is freaky.

He is also into his second game, and had a very limited preseason. Thank god the coaching group rates his work rate and what that work rate brings to the side

 

[Michaels]

Jesus the lack of respect and what he actually does for the side is sad. George gets picked when fit every game for one simple reason He adds chaos and unpredictability to our forward line, he also creates huge amounts of pressure. His disposal is average but the amount of goals that initially start from his possession is freaky.

He is also into his second game, and had a very limited preseason. Thank god the coaching group rates his work rate and what that work rate brings to the side

I agree that his pressure game is good, but at what stage does it become an issue that he isn't kicking goals and is making what seems like a lot of basic skill errors?

that missed handball to Lambert on a counter attack was horrible.

I just feel like that for all of his good pressure acts, he can also halt our momentum with an error on a fast break.

IMO that is why Butler got dropped too.

 

[ivansarmy]

I agree that his pressure game is good, but at what stage does it become an issue that he isn't kicking goals and is making what seems like a lot of basic skill errors?

that missed handball to Lambert on a counter attack was horrible.

I just feel like that for all of his good pressure acts, he can also halt our momentum with an error on a fast break.

IMO that is why Butler got dropped too.

Totally agree with this. I see Butler and George as being athletes rather than footballers. Whereas Bolton and Baker are the other way being footballers more than athletes. I think we can only play one of Butler and George as they can be momentum killers with their decision making. I’d have George over Butler as he can compete in the air when needed and is stronger and tackles better. If Bolton and Baker can apply the pressure required it will improve us a lot as they have the football smarts and skills to set up goals or kick them themselves.

 

[captain cotch 9]

Jesus the lack of respect and what he actually does for the side is sad. George gets picked when fit every game for one simple reason He adds chaos and unpredictability to our forward line, he also creates huge amounts of pressure. His disposal is average but the amount of goals that initially start from his possession is freaky.

He is also into his second game, and had a very limited preseason. Thank god the coaching group rates his work rate and what that work rate brings to the side

His skills have been pore and he isnt kicking goals..
Bolton and Baker deserve a go ahead of him atm

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

I would'nt drop georgie for the Sydaknee game...they have no match for his pace and pressure...

I'd put him on Buddy.

 

[Achilles Heel]

Some people have such low standards for Castagna that they would never apply to any other player. He's a small forward but he is an appalling kick and a poor handball (and that's not even touching upon his questionable awareness and marking). So what are his weapons? Well he tackles, he applies physical pressure and...well that's it. As I made the case in a previous post if that's the only reason he is being selected then it's a very poor reflection on the rest of the forward line because that should be a non-negotiable for every player. As I said selecting a football player simply because he chases and tackles is like selecting a batsman in cricket team that can't bat simply for his fielding. It's not sustainable. Likewise basking in the reflective glory of other players because he had an 'assist' is not valid either. Again harking back to cricket, reminds me of years ago when Tim May was under pressure for not doing his job whilst Shane Warne was taking wickets. How did his fan club deal with that situation? Well they just redefined his role, he was now a 'deadly decoy' Likewise with Castagna the small forward who can't kick and handball is now there to simply apply pressure. Moreover, this whole notion of 'assist' needs to be put into context. All goals are a result of a chain of events. handballs, kicks, spoils - whatever. Assisting is great but how many assist can it be said that if it wasn't for Castagna, if it was any other player (one that hasn't got crap bush league leavel skills, one that can actually kick, hand pass etc) those goals would never have happened. I can point out one with Bolton, the brilliance on the boundary where he danced and evaded and passed to a teamate for a set shot at goal. That one moment of brilliance encapsulated everything Castagna isn't and never will be.

At the moment Castagna is in survival mode and he knows it, he had 11 disposals, only two of which were kicks. His confidence is shot, he'll do anything he can to avoid kicking it (think a small forward that's afraid to kick). You might say well, yeah but as long as he handballs like that and applies pressure he'll be fine. Well even his handball is a liability. If that handball in concluding stages of the match, that handball that even a junior suburban footballer should have nailed, that left the commentators utterly speechless, if that had cost us the match as we all feared, then this would be a very different conversation. Everyone would up in arms saying enough is enough and demanding his head on a stick and rightly so. Bottomline is he is simply not an AFL standard footballer and a liability. He survives simply on the basis of doing something that should be a non-negotiable for every player regardless of position. He needs to be sent back to reserves to allow him to sort out his issues (not that I think at his age that will make any difference, but that's what the reserves are there for and he should be given an opportunity). We'll do just fine without him. True we might miss his 'pressure' but getting a player in that can actually kick and handball at an AFL level would more than compensate for that. Hopefully it'll be Martin for Castagna but either way his time is running out.

Round 17 2018 against gws George 5 behinds and at the end was celebrating a loss by 2 behinds. Iirc all 5 were very very gettable

 

[Rumballs]

Has been a strange ride with George.
On one hand I can't remember a premiership player of his height who can't kick, can't handball and is just an average decision maker.
Yet in our premiership he basically replaced Vicjesus at aerial contests and did a better job. i still have great memeories of him getting to multiple contests and just creating opportunities in the QF against the Cats.
Not sure how many games he has left as there is more competition for his role and room for 1 less small in the forward line.

 

[Tigerish09]

Round 17 2018 against gws George 5 behinds and at the end was celebrating a loss by 2 behinds. Iirc all 5 were very very gettable

Would not want him kicking for goal if your life depended on it. Averages a goal per game but his skills seem to have gone backward and we were starting from a low base to begin with. He does work hard to get into position but ultimately I think his poor skill will cost him in the long run. A number of similar players are now available and he'll have to compete with them. His clangers when we've got momentum are heartbreaking though.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

If you remember this great chart that showed weekly updated game stats for pressure acts.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/pressure-acts-spreadsheet.1190525/page-9

Butler, Rioli, Higgins all were superior. As stated, pressure takes physical traits, and the effort, which is (should be) a non-negotiable. For AFL standard, skills and decision making then factor in.

If we look at other teams, Devon Smith, Teppanyaki, younger Ballantyne, without checkimg stats, would be equal, or better than Castagna for pressure acts, but have excellent skills as well.

Having said that, 50+ goals, and a premiership medal means he can throw some leverage into the argument of being selected every week. Perhaps we should just accept the flaws and run with the chaos he brings.

And makes me laugh...



...after I've smashed the remote.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Jesus the lack of respect and what he actually does for the side is sad. George gets picked when fit every game for one simple reason He adds chaos and unpredictability to our forward line, he also creates huge amounts of pressure. His disposal is average but the amount of goals that initially start from his possession is freaky.

He is also into his second game, and had a very limited preseason. Thank god the coaching group rates his work rate and what that work rate brings to the side

Better role players in our squad if we chose to go down that same path again.
Gotta have more tricks up your sleeve than just speed.
He could lay 6 tackles but I guarantee it'll be 0.6 on the scoreboard.

 

[Willo_23]

Has a pressure acts spreadsheet been set up for this year? Happy to do one if there hasn't been one set up?

Edit: On second thoughts no need, here's a link to the stats on the AFL website for anyone interested.

 

[TigerImposter]

Some people have such low standards for Castagna that they would never apply to any other player. He's a small forward but he is an appalling kick and a poor handball (and that's not even touching upon his questionable awareness and marking). So what are his weapons? Well he tackles, he applies physical pressure and...well that's it. As I made the case in a previous post if that's the only reason he is being selected then it's a very poor reflection on the rest of the forward line because that should be a non-negotiable for every player. As I said selecting a football player simply because he chases and tackles is like selecting a batsman in cricket team that can't bat simply for his fielding. It's not sustainable. Likewise basking in the reflective glory of other players because he had an 'assist' is not valid either. Again harking back to cricket, reminds me of years ago when Tim May was under pressure for not doing his job whilst Shane Warne was taking wickets. How did his fan club deal with that situation? Well they just redefined his role, he was now a 'deadly decoy' Likewise with Castagna the small forward who can't kick and handball is now there to simply apply pressure. Moreover, this whole notion of 'assist' needs to be put into context. All goals are a result of a chain of events. handballs, kicks, spoils - whatever. Assisting is great but how many assist can it be said that if it wasn't for Castagna, if it was any other player (one that hasn't got crap bush league leavel skills, one that can actually kick, hand pass etc) those goals would never have happened. I can point out one with Bolton, the brilliance on the boundary where he danced and evaded and passed to a teamate for a set shot at goal. That one moment of brilliance encapsulated everything Castagna isn't and never will be.

At the moment Castagna is in survival mode and he knows it, he had 11 disposals, only two of which were kicks. His confidence is shot, he'll do anything he can to avoid kicking it (think a small forward that's afraid to kick). You might say well, yeah but as long as he handballs like that and applies pressure he'll be fine. Well even his handball is a liability. If that handball in concluding stages of the match, that handball that even a junior suburban footballer should have nailed, that left the commentators utterly speechless, if that had cost us the match as we all feared, then this would be a very different conversation. Everyone would up in arms saying enough is enough and demanding his head on a stick and rightly so. Bottomline is he is simply not an AFL standard footballer and a liability. He survives simply on the basis of doing something that should be a non-negotiable for every player regardless of position. He needs to be sent back to reserves to allow him to sort out his issues (not that I think at his age that will make any difference, but that's what the reserves are there for and he should be given an opportunity). We'll do just fine without him. True we might miss his 'pressure' but getting a player in that can actually kick and handball at an AFL level would more than compensate for that. Hopefully it'll be Martin for Castagna but either way his time is running out.

Legendary cricketer Rodney Marsh included mediocre West Indian off spinner in Roger Andrew Harper in his greatest team of all time...........................










;albeit as 12th man bc he was the greatest fieldsman he’d ever seen.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Some people have such low standards for Castagna that they would never apply to any other player. He's a small forward but he is an appalling kick and a poor handball (and that's not even touching upon his questionable awareness and marking). So what are his weapons? Well he tackles, he applies physical pressure and...well that's it. As I made the case in a previous post if that's the only reason he is being selected then it's a very poor reflection on the rest of the forward line because that should be a non-negotiable for every player. As I said selecting a football player simply because he chases and tackles is like selecting a batsman in cricket team that can't bat simply for his fielding. It's not sustainable. Likewise basking in the reflective glory of other players because he had an 'assist' is not valid either. Again harking back to cricket, reminds me of years ago when Tim May was under pressure for not doing his job whilst Shane Warne was taking wickets. How did his fan club deal with that situation? Well they just redefined his role, he was now a 'deadly decoy' Likewise with Castagna the small forward who can't kick and handball is now there to simply apply pressure. Moreover, this whole notion of 'assist' needs to be put into context. All goals are a result of a chain of events. handballs, kicks, spoils - whatever. Assisting is great but how many assist can it be said that if it wasn't for Castagna, if it was any other player (one that hasn't got crap bush league leavel skills, one that can actually kick, hand pass etc) those goals would never have happened. I can point out one with Bolton, the brilliance on the boundary where he danced and evaded and passed to a teamate for a set shot at goal. That one moment of brilliance encapsulated everything Castagna isn't and never will be.

At the moment Castagna is in survival mode and he knows it, he had 11 disposals, only two of which were kicks. His confidence is shot, he'll do anything he can to avoid kicking it (think a small forward that's afraid to kick). You might say well, yeah but as long as he handballs like that and applies pressure he'll be fine. Well even his handball is a liability. If that handball in concluding stages of the match, that handball that even a junior suburban footballer should have nailed, that left the commentators utterly speechless, if that had cost us the match as we all feared, then this would be a very different conversation. Everyone would up in arms saying enough is enough and demanding his head on a stick and rightly so. Bottomline is he is simply not an AFL standard footballer and a liability. He survives simply on the basis of doing something that should be a non-negotiable for every player regardless of position. He needs to be sent back to reserves to allow him to sort out his issues (not that I think at his age that will make any difference, but that's what the reserves are there for and he should be given an opportunity). We'll do just fine without him. True we might miss his 'pressure' but getting a player in that can actually kick and handball at an AFL level would more than compensate for that. Hopefully it'll be Martin for Castagna but either way his time is running out.

I would like to have a go at answering your post here Tygrys. You have made a lot of points, claims, and observations that to be honest I think you could improve upon. Here are my thoughts on your post, section by section....

"Some people have such low standards for Castagna that they would never apply to any other player."

This adds nothing to your argument because we do not know who you are referring to or what points they have made for you to arrive at this judgement. Why would any Richmond supporters/selectors apply lower standards for one player than they have for any other player?

"He's a small forward but he is an appalling kick and a poor handball (and that's not even touching upon his questionable awareness and marking)."

Would it be more accurate to say he makes 2.1 clangers per game on average, and because they are often absolute howlers they stick in our minds? The two most comparable players to him in Butler and Rioli have 2.0 and 1.8 clangers per match. He handballed very well v Port Adelaide apart from the one shocker where he put it behind a moving target and it went out of bounds. His 3 goal assists are testament to this.

"So what are his weapons? Well he tackles, he applies physical pressure and...well that's it."

He has 9 disposals per match that are not clangers, he crashes packs in the air and on the ground, he is fit, fast, great endurance and he kicks a goal per game despite being a bit less accurate when shooting for goal than AFL average(I think AFL average is roughly 5 goals per 4 behinds, Castagna goes at around 5 goals per 4.6 behinds. The thing you get from him that doesn't show in any basic stats is the pack crashing in the air and on the ground. I am only going by my own observation but I would say he and Rioli of the Tigers small forwards can do this a lot better and more often than the average AFL small forward. If I had to guess, I would say this is the reason he is currently preferred by selectors over other small forwards that can likely more than match him on recorded statistics.

"As I made the case in a previous post if that's the only reason he is being selected then it's a very poor reflection on the rest of the forward line because that should be a non-negotiable for every player."

Tis is a strange argument. He does certain things better than other players, but because you think those certain things should be non negotiable with presumably all players doing them to the exact same extent, Castagna should be out of the team, and players who do not do those things as well should be in the team. If a player came along who could grab it out of the ruck 20 times per match, run the field and kick a goal each time, but he doesn't chase or tackle, are you dropping him and letting him go to an opposition club because he cannot do a non negotiable thing? More realistically, no player gets selected for only one reason. The selectors quite rightly measure the whole value of each player for every role against the next best alternative.

"As I said selecting a football player simply because he chases and tackles is like selecting a batsman in cricket team that can't bat simply for his fielding."

I can actually see the analogy, despite it being tenuous. The trouble with your argument is that is not what is happening with Castagna. Castagna is not being selected purely because he chases and tackles. He is being selected because amongst other things, he does those things well enough to bridge his small but noticeable deficit in efficiency when compared to players with greater skill or poise.

"Likewise basking in the reflective glory of other players because he had an 'assist' is not valid either. Again harking back to cricket, reminds me of years ago when Tim May was under pressure for not doing his job whilst Shane Warne was taking wickets. How did his fan club deal with that situation? Well they just redefined his role, he was now a 'deadly decoy' Likewise with Castagna the small forward who can't kick and handball is now there to simply apply pressure."

Your point seems to be that in cases of both Tim May and Jason Castagna, that supporters/selectors/your interlocutors seem to have conspired to redefine what constitutes acceptable performance in order to keep a player in the team that shouldn't be in the team. You don't say why they might want a player who shouldn't be in the team to be selected...why would this privilege not be accorded to anyone else bar Tim May and Jason Castagna? By what means did those two individuals in particular persuade everybody who mattered to make exceptions to keep them in the team when they shouldn't have been?

"Moreover, this whole notion of 'assist' needs to be put into context. All goals are a result of a chain of events. handballs, kicks, spoils - whatever. Assisting is great but how many assist can it be said that if it wasn't for Castagna, if it was any other player (one that hasn't got crap bush league leavel skills, one that can actually kick, hand pass etc) those goals would never have happened. I can point out one with Bolton, the brilliance on the boundary where he danced and evaded and passed to a teamate for a set shot at goal. That one moment of brilliance encapsulated everything Castagna isn't and never will be."

A question worth asking yourself may be, is it you(rather than those you are arguing against) who is starting from a position of something you want to occur(Castagna dropped) and observing only things that fit your argument, ignoring or diminishing anything that doesn't fit your argument? Is this not the very thing you are accusing others of doing here?

You are essentially saying the 3 goal assists Castagna had on the weekend(including the go ahead goal kicked by Kamdyn) are inadmissible evidence in the case for his continued selection because any other player competing for his spot could have executed those assists. This ignores what Castagna had to do to get into the position to perform the assists. Is it not better to look at the entirety of what each player has done/could reasonably be expected to do on available evidence, and to weigh the value of one against the other objectively, and arrive at your answer this way?

"At the moment Castagna is in survival mode and he knows it, he had 11 disposals, only two of which were kicks. His confidence is shot, he'll do anything he can to avoid kicking it (think a small forward that's afraid to kick). You might say well, yeah but as long as he handballs like that and applies pressure he'll be fine. Well even his handball is a liability. If that handball in concluding stages of the match, that handball that even a junior suburban footballer should have nailed, that left the commentators utterly speechless, if that had cost us the match as we all feared, then this would be a very different conversation. Everyone would up in arms saying enough is enough and demanding his head on a stick and rightly so."

As I think others had pointed out, 11 disposals is about the average for his role over the long term. From what I saw, Castagna kicked when he should have, and handball when he should have, as evidenced by his 3 goal assists. He had a howler of a handball as you pointed out and this is part of what he brings to the table right now. I don't share your view that the argument would be different if Richmond had lost. It was one clanger, one chance to score less than we'd have had if he executed the handball well and I don't think anyone is pretending otherwise. It has to be weighed with all the other things he did both well and not so well surely? I will say, he is not the only player who has ever done that, it happens semi regularly, you have the ball in some traffic, you are quickly weighing your options, you have an easy give, you take your eye off your teammate for a split second to work out where the opponents are, you then realise you must handball, you handball it to where he was a split second ago, he has changed direction, you look a goose. He can handball fine, he just lacks composure at times.

I don't have a problem either way if Castagna is retained or dropped. The selectors know what they are doing, I have every faith in them. There will be good reasons that he has been continually selected when fit. I agree he could benefit from a game or two in the seconds, to gain a few unpressured possessions to improve his touch, but you don't want that to be at the cost of losing a winnable game at AFL level at this stage and sitting 2-2.

Apologies for the dissection Tygrys, but in this case I thought it was warranted.

Selection this week and in coming weeks will be very interesting.

 

[Sir_Loin]

What form back? This is his average form LOL

He’s not hitting the scoreboard. He has a very good comparative record for a small forward.

 

[Wooden Robot]

Brings some pressure, but atrocious skills and a serious momentum killer - and that's when he actually gets his hand on it. Goes missing more often than not.
I'll take Bolton any day, plenty more tricks than George who got his career highlight out of the way early and won't reach those heights again.
Let's face facts, plenty apply more pressure than this guy - and taller and bulkier guys.