USA MAGA activist Charlie Kirk shot dead during Utah rally

[Gethelred]

Okay. We've probably had enough of a free for all.

There are still forum and site posting guidelines, and you will abide by them.

A few seem to be of the opinion that now is a good time to have a crack at moderators or moderation. I'd rather like to discourage that impulse so I'm going to make it explicit: a moderator on this forum is a poster like any other, and can share their views and have free use of the forum like any other. If you feel a post breaches the rules report it; attacking a mod for their posting or objecting to a post purely because a moderator said it is grounds for an infraction and some time off.

From here, if you cannot speak civilly, you will not be allowed to participate.

Thanks all.

 

[awaremind]

I still remember the early days of Twitter - the legacy media my gosh didn't they give it a leg up. Instead of actual journalism they just regurgitated tweets and I asked myself at the time - why?

I don’t watch tv but I talk to a lot of people irl , and I could tell the talking points by the repitiin of them . Very disturbing. Even more disturbing was in trumps first term the media must have promoted assasinating him because for one week this got brought up by five different people to me as a good idea ! And never before or again.

 

[Spearman]

another layer...I heard at least twice that Patel in his purge of FBI agents, fired the agent in charge of the area of Utah where the shooting occurred. Apparently a DEI hire so we can guess what he/she looked like.

 

[Anzacpaul]

another layer...I heard at least twice that Patel in his purge of FBI agents, fired the agent in charge of the area of Utah where the shooting occurred. Apparently a DEI hire so we can guess what he/she looked like.

Was a muslim I believe.

 

[Gralin]

You are still doing it. Talking like he some how deserved it because of his opinions is wrong full stop.

I'm not saying he deserved it, I'm saying he was actively working to create the situation we are in.

Gun violence was acceptable to him as a price to pay for the freedom to own guns

He campaigned against gun reform

He promoted hateful view and was part of the right wing influence machine that promotes violence against their political opponents

he called the attacker of Pelosi a hero

He's become a victim of the climate he helped create and foster

these guys are actively working to create division and resentment within the community they live in, you can't control that

this is not saying he deserved to be shot and killed, this is acknowledging that we are in part where we are because of people like him who profit off division and stoking hate in the community

If you can’t see this you are ideologically captured. He was a debater, he fostered communication as a way to understand the opinions of others and to play out conflict of ideas not violence against humans.

this is not true

he was not trying to foster communication, he was trying to push his message to as wide an audience as possible

he said victims of gun violence shouldn't be involved in discussing gun control

he talked about god give rights as if owning a gun was divine

he wanted women getting married and having kids, not having careers

he wanted civil rights rolled back for women, blacks and gays

we wasn't trying to foster a better world, he was trying to influence lawmakers to remove rights for people under the guise of debating

the idea that these things don't lead to violence is a myth

what you're saying is they're not meant to lead to violence against you, because they are absolutely meant to lead to violence, whether state controlled or othwise

you think what ICE is doing in the US right now isn't large scale political violence?

I’m pro Palestine / anti what Israel is doing very strongly but such a move is ending the “jaw” and moving to war (reference Churchill). When people are unwilling to hear the voices of others they are pro conflict. Personally I don’t even think this was done by the “left” but the response from radical small l liberals is self consemnation. To say “ he’s looking up at us” he died for what he believed in , he was a hate monger and I’m happy, is all over social media and it’s worse imo than the actual event.

and there are politicians and other so called consevative commenators and a billionaire or two calling for civil war

a journalist said she was afraid that Kirk's death would lead to retaliations against perceived left wing people regardless of the motivations of the killer and the response to that was people to say they hoped she was one of the ones shot and killed

lets not pretend we're in some sort of situation where the "left" is gloating and conservatives are all quietly mourning the injustice of it all

Its also interesting how you think social media posts about an assassination are worse than the event itself yet suggest I am minimising his murder by talking about his views and positions

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Sure, and Fraser Anning had the courage to call for a "final solution" on immigration. I don't have to admire him for his courage, I can condemn him for justifying the deaths of children in his crusade for no restrictions on firearms whatsoever.

Yes as I’m sure your beliefs or actions also align with the death of children too. You just pretend it doesn’t.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Yeah, it’s almost like there should be rulebook for Christians to follow.

Ill pay that.

It always amuses me when non christian's think it's their job to take christians to task regarding their compliance with their 'rule book'.

 

[Cyg1992]

For older people on this forum, when did politics veer down this Right v Left culture wars hatred?

I know there has always been a working class v business tension but 20 years ago politics was pretty dull and focussed on economic policy, tax reform, with a sprinkle of foreign policy. Most were largely disengaged and carried on their lives free of this current shit

The gamer gate saga and the early days of Trump's Maga movement.

Around 2014-2015 I started to notice my friends at the time start changing a lot.
We were in our early 20s then.

They were watching and consuming a lot of conservative and far right, mostly American content online. Much of it were atheists who originally made their name in that space mocking religion but then shifted to targeting gays, feminism and social justice (which they now call woke).

Exception to that is people like Ben Shapiro, Crowder, rebel news, etc who are clearly religious.

My friends were all pretty much atheists too back then. They were all very much in agreement that our gun laws are great in Australia and that things like Medicare, the NDIS and robust social services are important. Despite all of them being coalition voters of course (this is mostly because their parents were, I grew up in Edgecliff).

Their views started to change as the grifters shifted their tack to a much more pro gun, pro religion, pro white supremacy position.
This is probably around the Charlottesville time of Trump's first presidency.

This intensified exponentially during the pandemic when everyone was spending a lot more time online and those old friends of mine are now full blown, religious cookers except for one of them who I am still good friends with. He didn't fall as deep into the rabbit hole.

If I was to liken this to famous people in that public space, think of the evolution over the last decade that people like Russell Brand and Joe Rogan have made. My old mates followed a roughly similar trajectory just without the grifter money.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Bloke said gun related deaths were the cost necessary to protect 2nd amendment rights and said it was a "prudent deal"....

Well, I wonder if your family still thinks the cost was "prudent"

No joy taken seeing kids lose their father, but seriously America, guns are the problem....

If the rifle they found is indeed the rifle used in Kirk's slaying, that is a type of rifle you could easily get here in Australia which is considered one of the countries with the toughest gun laws.

The only way this could be an issue related to US gun laws is if the rifle was obtained illegally. Wouldnt be hard to obtain it from a second hand gun show either.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

For older people on this forum, when did politics veer down this Right v Left culture wars hatred?

I know there has always been a working class v business tension but 20 years ago politics was pretty dull and focussed on economic policy, tax reform, with a sprinkle of foreign policy. Most were largely disengaged and carried on their lives free of this current shit

When governments and the elite realized that it's much easier to have power over a highly divided population than a united one. Sad.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ill pay that.

It always amuses me when non christian's think it's their job to take christians to task regarding their compliance with their 'rule book'.

As I see it it is more about pointing out hypocrisy. "You follow this religion. Your texts state this, but you do that. Why?"

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If the rifle they found is indeed the rifle used in Kirk's slaying, that is a type of rifle you could easily get here in Australia which is considered one of the countries with the toughest gun laws.

The only way this could be an issue related to US gun laws is if the rifle was obtained illegally. Wouldnt be hard to obtain it from a second hand gun show either.

dont think there is any type of gun you can "easily" get in Australia compared to the US that is.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

The gamer gate saga and the early days of Trump's Maga movement.

Around 2014-2015 I started to notice my friends at the time start changing a lot.
We were in our early 20s then.

They were watching and consuming a lot of conservative and far right, mostly American content online. Much of it were atheists who originally made their name in that space mocking religion but then shifted to targeting gays, feminism and social justice (which they now call woke).

Exception to that is people like Ben Shapiro, Crowder, rebel news, etc who are clearly religious.

My friends were all pretty much atheists too back then. They were all very much in agreement that our gun laws are great in Australia and that things like Medicare, the NDIS and robust social services are important. Despite all of them being coalition voters of course (this is mostly because their parents were, I grew up in Edgecliff).

Their views started to change as the grifters shifted their tack to a much more pro gun, pro religion, pro white supremacy position.
This is probably around the Charlottesville time of Trump's first presidency.

This intensified exponentially during the pandemic when everyone was spending a lot more time online and those old friends of mine are now full blown, religious cookers except for one of them who I am still good friends with. He didn't fall as deep into the rabbit hole.

If I was to liken this to famous people in that public space, think of the evolution over the last decade that people like Russell Brand and Joe Rogan have made. My old mates followed a roughly similar trajectory just without the grifter money.

It's has more to do with social media and online platforming, but it was evident when i was in senior school in 2000. The online space just turbocharged it, and taught us all how to dehumanize people we are debating/arguing with, which is now evolving to dehumanizing people we disagree with to the point of wanting to kill them, or laugh at their death. And yes...Bigfooty is one of these such platforms.

 

[Underarm]

Ill pay that.

It always amuses me when non christian's think it's their job to take christians to task regarding their compliance with their 'rule book'.

As opposed to Christians who love to keep their views and values to themsleves.

 

[Sir_Loin]

dont think there is any type of gun you can "easily" get in Australia compared to the US that is.

Tell me more

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

As I see it it is more about pointing out hypocrisy. "You follow this religion. Your texts state this, but you do that. Why?"

But if you arent a christian, chances are you knowledge of the context of scripture and spirituality is likely not as advanced as those you point the finger at (not always). In any case...isn't telling someone else how to do their job just a massive dick move?

 

[swanny1234]

If the rifle they found is indeed the rifle used in Kirk's slaying, that is a type of rifle you could easily get here in Australia which is considered one of the countries with the toughest gun laws.

The only way this could be an issue related to US gun laws is if the rifle was obtained illegally. Wouldnt be hard to obtain it from a second hand gun show either.

Regardless, take this as just one of the hundreds upon hundreds of gun related deaths in America each year. On the same day Kirk got killed, 2 school students were also shot in Colorado (no one mentioning this btw)

Australia is far from perfect, but our gun violence is significantly lower numbers, and it’s no coincidence that’s because the gun laws are significantly tougher.

 

[Cyber_punk]

They got palm prints? Do people not know of this thing called gloves?

I mean of all the assassinations or attempts over the last couple years it's staggering to me the smallest and easiest things people could wear, but don't, to help conceal their identity.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

But if you arent a christian, chances are you knowledge of the context of scripture and spirituality is likely not as advanced as those you point the finger at (not always). In any case...isn't telling someone else how to do their job just a massive dick move?

You can just google bible verses with key words.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

As opposed to Christians who love to keep their views and values to themsleves.

I dont understand this. You expect religious people to never speak about their beliefs or views... yet are happy for everyone else to share theirs?

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

You can just google bible verses with key words.

Im sure google is always 100% right.

 

[awaremind]

I'm not saying he deserved it, I'm saying he was actively working to create the situation we are in.

Gun violence was acceptable to him as a price to pay for the freedom to own guns

He campaigned against gun reform

He promoted hateful view and was part of the right wing influence machine that promotes violence against their political opponents

he called the attacker of Pelosi a hero

He's become a victim of the climate he helped create and foster

these guys are actively working to create division and resentment within the community they live in, you can't control that

this is not saying he deserved to be shot and killed, this is acknowledging that we are in part where we are because of people like him who profit off division and stoking hate in the community





this is not true

he was not trying to foster communication, he was trying to push his message to as wide an audience as possible

he said victims of gun violence shouldn't be involved in discussing gun control

he talked about god give rights as if owning a gun was divine

he wanted women getting married and having kids, not having careers

he wanted civil rights rolled back for women, blacks and gays

we wasn't trying to foster a better world, he was trying to influence lawmakers to remove rights for people under the guise of debating

the idea that these things don't lead to violence is a myth

what you're saying is they're not meant to lead to violence against you, because they are absolutely meant to lead to violence, whether state controlled or othwise

you think what ICE is doing in the US right now isn't large scale political violence?



and there are politicians and other so called consevative commenators and a billionaire or two calling for civil war

a journalist said she was afraid that Kirk's death would lead to retaliations against perceived left wing people regardless of the motivations of the killer and the response to that was people to say they hoped she was one of the ones shot and killed

lets not pretend we're in some sort of situation where the "left" is gloating and conservatives are all quietly mourning the injustice of it all

Its also interesting how you think social media posts about an assassination are worse than the event itself yet suggest I am minimising his murder by talking about his views and positions

He was one person, an influential one sure, but I’ve already seen literally thousands of real leftist radicals make such comments. There was never pile on like this for ANY other death in my life time ! And of course the oligarchs and media are being divisive , it’s what they do ! Musk should be more responsible, and the media of all flavours is responsible for this - Charlie Kirk was only thirty- and this culture war is already a decade or more old - he’s a victim of it even while he was breathing. He grew up in a radicalised society. A man died. Focusing on his flaws is distasteful and self de humanising. Rip Charlie rip George Floyd . Rip the peace we had. Stop playing politics like a team sport.

 

[kickazz]

The only way this could be an issue related to US gun laws is if the rifle was obtained illegally. Wouldnt be hard to obtain it from a second hand gun show either.

No that's not the end of it.

It isn't just about how hard it is to get a gun or not. It's also about the culture. In fact it is mainly about the culture.

Yes we can get guns here but you can't take them to University, we don't carry them around for the **** of it, etc.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

dont think there is any type of gun you can "easily" get in Australia compared to the US that is.

I've just been through the process....its not easy!

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Im sure google is always 100% right.

Neither are Christians.

 

[Malifice]

Just as an innocent pedestrian supports being killed by a drunk driver because they didn’t want alcohol banned.

Kirk would have steadfastly argued his killers unconditional right to own a gun, and would have opposed any effort for the State to deprive his killer of his gun.

Even acknowledging the fact that his killer might go on to murder someone and that was a fair and rational price to pay for the killers unconditional right.

I mean yeah, if someone argued for the removal of all drink driving laws, was successful in having them removed, and was then run over by a drunken idiot, your analogy would be more accurate.