List Mgmt. 2025 List Management III 📃

[Revenant1995]

The talking down of TDK is making him sound like the modern day Cain Ackland. I think the new ruck rules and at a new club where his heart (and wallet) is invested will see him become one of the top rucks in the league.

Yeah. I reckon, health permitting, TDK will be among the top ruckmen moving forwards. I think the challenge for him (and coming close to that incredible price tag) will be his contributions around the ground. To date, he isn't at the level like Gawn at his peak. Not sure how TDK will go stepping up to be a $1.7 million p.a. player. The pressure of his price tag will be enormous.

And getting back to list management, it'll be interesting to see how our Ruckmen go in 2026. Will Reidy be able to step up, or will the quick throw ins mean that more adaptable players around the ground (eg H in fwd 50 taking tap thrown in) become more important?

 

[azlou]

You can go to the links provided and look at the actual data....... but, it might be hard to see over the barrow full of stuff you are pushing....

Blake was let go from previous clubs and he’s apparently on a low salary with us because he’s a below average AFL kick.
His strengths have balanced that out but injuries have weakened the strength and accentuated the weakness.
We need to replace him on the wing if we have an option.
Not much point touching a goal for a point if your howlers and out on the full cost 4

 

[kingkingston]

I like Ollie but he is under real pressure now with Chesser being chased and landed by the club. Ditto the HB Florent and the natural progression of a few others.

Players like Ollie were definitely ignored by some of the mids, as he is not a designated kicker. Make no mistake, that's a coaching directive about forward 50 entries.

On a wing, you need to be elite/v. good at something, speed, kicking, marking, skill, aggressive.

He will always be a foot soldier who will get games but now I don't have him in the 23

Ollie is a "nice" player, and I think that is all he will ever be. He will run and run, but under pressure, he gets in trouble with his slow kicking action.

 

[kingkingston]

Blake was let go from previous clubs and he’s apparently on a low salary with us because he’s a below average AFL kick.
His strengths have balanced that out but injuries have weakened the strength and accentuated the weakness.
We need to replace him on the wing if we have an option.
Not much point touching a goal for a point if your howlers and out on the full cost 4

Freo didn't want him to leave

 

[JJBagger]

Blake was let go from previous clubs and he’s apparently on a low salary with us because he’s a below average AFL kick.
His strengths have balanced that out but injuries have weakened the strength and accentuated the weakness.
We need to replace him on the wing if we have an option.
Not much point touching a goal for a point if your howlers and out on the full cost 4

Freo didn’t let him go. He was borderline AA in last year there

 

[gbatman]

In my opinion, the worst offender is the coach who even last year was still getting the players to bomb it long to contests (where any coach can work out that they just need to outnumber us) instead of shortening up the ball movement and running it up the field in numbers.

We have a lot of players that I think have neat at best disposal like most teams but they’re made to look a lot worse with a game plan that revolves around moments and opportunities instead of system and ball movement.

Combination of the coach and the available players. Even if Voss didn't want us going to Curnow and McKay and bombing it all the time, he didn't have an option because the other forwards don't have an overhead game. Not many options you could kick to last season, on the flip side, it's the coach who guides the recruiters and if he is not demanding that the smaller forwards must have an overhead game, he's not likely to get it and that is what has happened.

The direction Voss has given to list management has been garbage. They have recruited too many slow players, poor kicks and forwards with no overhead game because the coach has not been demanding the right things. Wright has come in and all of a sudden our list management team seem to have better direction and are recruiting players with better traits.

Carlton at their best had Curnow, McKay AND Martin and Silvagni forward. More targets, better connection and ball movement from stronger and smarter aerial targets.

It's on Voss and list management that we don't have that. We are easy to coach against because Curnow and McKay have marked the spot where the ball will go and the opposition team get numbers to that spot. Easy.

McKay, O'Keeffe, Moir, Kemp, Hayward, Ainsworth and Byrne excites the hell out of me. It's turned things on its head for us. It means that tactically we actually have the capabilities to change how we have been moving the ball.

You get Chesser, Florent and Smith in the side running with the ball and kicking accurately with our increase in options. This is why my expectations are so high next year. I expect players like Saad to also be freed up by our incoming talent.

Coaching Carlton has always been about get numbers to Curnow and Mckay because they are the only forward targets. Block Walsh because he is the only quick mid who is hard to put pressure on and can carry the ball. Lack Saad down because he's the only damaging run and carry half back. Add more talent to these areas and we will be harder to coach against.

 

[Opium]

Freo didn’t let him go. He was borderline AA in last year there

One of hardest working two way runners in the side. Still our best wingman. Is best 22 every day of the week for me.

 

[gbatman]

It's not popular opinion but I believe if our list booms, O Hollands could become a depth player or trade option. This is the case for all players who aren't good kicks and have deficiencies on lists who become too strong for them to get regular opportunities. What happens to the poor kicks if this team is a top two list in the comp in the next few seasons? Lets see if he can elevate his kicking skills.

Acres is interesting to me. His main kicking issues revolve around him lacking pace and agility and finding himself kicking under pressure a lot. Acres is strong overhead. Do we find another position for him where he's marking more and kicking under less pressure? Can he get involved with the half forward rotations or a half back role? Halfback is probably full and half forward may be as well. It's probably depth for him as well.

The game has evolved where better teams have been focused on leg speed and he has got a little older. Slower players have become slower quicker in the game because of this. A team like us who has not been coached well and has not directed recruitment well has been caught out lacking leg speed. The better teams have got quicker, we are only just beginning to do so.

 

[Schoonerman]

One of hardest working two way runners in the side. Still our best wingman. Is best 22 every day of the week for me.

If only his disposal was better

 

[azlou]

One of hardest working two way runners in the side. Still our best wingman. Is best 22 every day of the week for me.

If we improve as a team and the standard is set higher than can run up and down the field he won’t be.
His shoulders are shot which limits his strength overhead.
Let’s see if we string a chain of possessions just to see him bang it long or out on the full.Only reason I see him in the best 22 is lack of options.
The rumour Freo wanted him stay but wasn’t willing to offer a contract better than the rumoured $350,000 says rumours are just that

 

[azlou]

If only his disposal was better

Then Freo would have offered him 700,000 and he would have been worth it

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I don't think many would argue that Acres has been an outstanding recruit overall.

I think last year he had a bit of a shocker - not alone in that category but he got so bad he was dropped to the VFL.

I get that people want to be all sunshine and roses - but the whole club identified kicking as our major issue.

We've gone out and traded and drafted players specifically for that and also restructured our whole preseason around kicking.

So if we agree that kicking is the issue - who are the ones doing these bad kicks? If it's not Ollie and it's not Acres who is it? I think Cerra gets a free pass on here. His kicking was bizarre in the 2nd half of the season. And he's certainly one to ignore the short option and bomb a F50 entry.

 

[Will_Hayward]

I don't think many would argue that Acres has been an outstanding recruit overall.

I think many would. Acres had a down year due to injuries, but that doesn't wash away the good he did in the previous years after getting him for cheap. Acres was a big contributor to what have been our best years in decades.

 

[BlueJet]

The talking down of TDK is making him sound like the modern day Cain Ackland. I think the new ruck rules and at a new club where his heart (and wallet) is invested will see him become one of the top rucks in the league.

No, the way Pittonet is spoken of is though.
I'm not sure whether TDK will become a top ruckman, he should continue to improve but he's behind quite a few & to borrow from baseball, his WAR is negligible. Which doesn't really scream, top shelf, despite the hype that he receives.
If he does, good luck to him.

It's not popular opinion but I believe if our list booms, O Hollands could become a depth player or trade option. This is the case for all players who aren't good kicks and have deficiencies on lists who become too strong for them to get regular opportunities. What happens to the poor kicks if this team is a top two list in the comp in the next few seasons? Lets see if he can elevate his kicking skills.

Acres is interesting to me. His main kicking issues revolve around him lacking pace and agility and finding himself kicking under pressure a lot. Acres is strong overhead. Do we find another position for him where he's marking more and kicking under less pressure? Can he get involved with the half forward rotations or a half back role? Halfback is probably full and half forward may be as well. It's probably depth for him as well.

The game has evolved where better teams have been focused on leg speed and he has got a little older. Slower players have become slower quicker in the game because of this. A team like us who has not been coached well and has not directed recruitment well has been caught out lacking leg speed. The better teams have got quicker, we are only just beginning to do so.

Good post.
It'll be interesting to monitor the evolution of our players & list.
I'd still like to see Hollands develop his midfield game a little more.
Acres: I have less concern with than other posters, he offers a point of difference in the contest & overhead. There'll be particular games where the bigger body & marking ability will be advantageous.
I'm certainly not against trading out players before their value depreciates though, it's something I've felt we could be better at for a little while.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I think many would. Acres had a down year due to injuries, but that doesn't wash away the good he did in the previous years after getting him for cheap. Acres was a big contributor to what have been our best years in decades.

Kicked the winning goal to get us to a preliminary. Got to be worth remembering.

 

[BluStreak]

Sidebottom is not a fast player but rather a smart player, as a wing he holds his position well. Acres has that option, he is good overhead and if he is smarter than he can still contribute at the top level.

Hopefully each of our players learns their role / positioning so well that it is second nature.

 

[Garters]

Freo didn’t let him go. He was borderline AA in last year there

Yep, was an astute get. Was a member of the 2022 AA squad that year. Just didnt make the final team.
Had a shocker last year along with a dozen others, however was basically one of the best 4 or 5 wingers in the comp for a few years there. Guy is also one of the best (only) two way runners we have.
On here we are v good at fixating on a few negatives clouded by recency bias and then throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We can thank him for a prelim berth.

If age has caught up with him then he will get overtaken this season. TBH if we are to take serious step changes up in our improvement this season, older war horses like him need to be superceded as a matter of course.
To be honest though not really anyone with runs on the board kicking the door down to this point. Hopefully one of the newbies does this in emphatic fashion 2026.

 

[Flaggers22]

Yep, was an astute get. Was a member of the 2022 AA squad that year. Just didnt make the final team.

No he wasn't, and never has been.

however was basically one of the best 4 or 5 wingers in the comp for a few years there.

The wing is a weird position, there's not many pure wingman in the comp. Many who excel in the position will get shifted to the midfield or backline where they can have more impact. So you're probably looking at a cohort of only 20 or so players. If you look at some of the players who have played on the wing in the last 5 years or so, I'd take Daicos, Gulden, Dempsey, Kelly, Langdon, I Smith, McCluggage, Dawson and D'Ambrosio over him in a heartbeat.

On here we are v good at fixating on a few negatives clouded by recency bias and then throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We can thank him for a prelim berth.

I think the prelim created a halo effect around Acres. Personally, I don't give him too much credit for it, he was just playing his role. Generally speaking, a fat side winger will track back to the goalsquare when the other team has possession. Anyway, I don't think I can be accused of recency bias at least, as I have been calling for him to be dropped since 2023.

I think it just comes back to the larger debate of what a wingers actual role is. Personally, I like my wingers to be elite kicks because they get a disproportionate amount of ball in space and they should have enough time to put the team in a better scoring position. Unfortunately, Acres just completely fails in this regard. I think he has some good traits at AFL level, I just don't think he's suited to a wing.

 

[We may never win again]

No he wasn't, and never has been.

The wing is a weird position, there's not many pure wingman in the comp. Many who excel in the position will get shifted to the midfield or backline where they can have more impact. So you're probably looking at a cohort of only 20 or so players. If you look at some of the players who have played on the wing in the last 5 years or so, I'd take Daicos, Gulden, Dempsey, Kelly, Langdon, I Smith, McCluggage, Dawson and D'Ambrosio over him in a heartbeat.

I think the prelim created a halo effect around Acres. Personally, I don't give him too much credit for it, he was just playing his role. Generally speaking, a fat side winger will track back to the goalsquare when the other team has possession. Anyway, I don't think I can be accused of recency bias at least, as I have been calling for him to be dropped since 2023.

I think it just comes back to the larger debate of what a wingers actual role is. Personally, I like my wingers to be elite kicks because they get a disproportionate amount of ball in space and they should have enough time to put the team in a better scoring position. Unfortunately, Acres just completely fails in this regard. I think he has some good traits at AFL level, I just don't think he's suited to a wing.

Of the players you mentioned, mcluggage and dawson have spent most of their time on ball the last few years, smith retired in 2023, Kelly’s always injured, neither dambrosio nor Dempsey were getting games in 2023 and lack Acres’ defensive impact, and Langdons kicking is certainly not much better if at all. Won’t see me arguing that Acres didn’t have a bad year but his second half of 2023 was certainly that of a top 5 wingman at the time, and I seriously doubt we’d have won a final without him

 

[Blue By Blood]

This.

But we're on the internet, land of extreme generalisations.

A player can be an elite kick, or a shit kick, but a lot of people struggle with the notion that 75% of AFL footballers are neither, and sit somewhere in the middle. Same goes for a lot of other attributes. If they're not a contested beast they're flaky. If they're not blindingly fast they're too slow for the modern game.

Ollie's biggest issue disposal-wise is the time it can take him to straighten and get boot to ball when he's on a run. He lacks the ability to very rapidly squeeze out a kick to avoid getting tackled with it.

Half back and wing are both positions that can alleviate that, but probably more so the wing. Worst thing for him is to be sizing up the corridor from half back with a hungry small forward on his hammer.

You make valid points but the thing that magnifies his average kicking is that the wings and half backs need to be great kicks or at least able to be damaging by taking on a risky kick to set up play. Ollie is decent by foot but not really able to create by foot. He can create with run sure but that's only half the game.

The good teams have players with at worst above average kicking skills off half back and wing as these positions set up transition and the inside 50 kick. He's still young and has time but a guy like Chesser for instance if he stays fit has attributes that in theory should go past Ollie for that wing role.

We really need to improve our kicking inside 50 so we need to start phasing out anyone who can't hit targets and I think that's what this season will be about- gaining first hand data on who can play under our hopefully new and improved game plan. And yes, a lot of this comes down to how we move the ball, structures and game plan.

 

[teknodeejay]

Kicked the winning goal to get us to a preliminary. Got to be worth remembering.

Not to mention kicked the winning goal that got us to the game where he kicked the winning goal to get us to a preliminary.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

One of our better draft picks IMO

If he's one of our better draft picks then that just shows you how bereft of young talent we've been. 'If you want a guaranteed high floor/low ceiling player every four or so seasons, Nick Austin is your man!'... hardly a raving endorsement.

 

[Pinnell]

The talking down of TDK is making him sound like the modern day Cain Ackland. I think the new ruck rules and at a new club where his heart (and wallet) is invested will see him become one of the top rucks in the league.

Guaranteed to have period of 4-5 games each year where he is one of, if not the best. Also then guaranteed to run out of gas for the rest of the season....

 

[gbatman]

Sidebottom is not a fast player but rather a smart player, as a wing he holds his position well. Acres has that option, he is good overhead and if he is smarter than he can still contribute at the top level.

Hopefully each of our players learns their role / positioning so well that it is second nature.

Probably one of the smartest wingers I have seen, would be one to keep a tab on to poach for our coaching group. The way he takes his opponent to the contest and leaves them there only to be free in space 20m away consistently is unreal. Saw him give Cottrell the mother of all baths live a few years ago, it was well worth watching for any young player how he does it.

 

[BluStreak]

I think that Gulden of the Swans is the winger that everyone dreams of but what Sidebottom does nearly every game is masterly.

So yeah GW needs to get that message to sign him up as a development coach asap after he finish playing.