Who will be better in 2025 - Geelong or Hawthorn?

[Fadge]

Has this conversation now evolved to whether people would take Newcombe or Holmes over Cox, as though anyone has ever suggested otherwise?

Oh boy.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Has this conversation now evolved to whether people would take Newcombe or Holmes over Cox, as though anyone has ever suggested otherwise?

Oh boy.

No, you just don't know how to read.

 

[Fadge]

To be fair unlike Cox, Newcombe is consistently good in the minor round too.

BTW, i would take either Newcombe or Holmes in a heartbeat. Different types of players though.

Then maybe you can interpret this for me, Walshy?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Then maybe you can interpret this for me, Walshy?

No, you just don't know how to read.

^^^

 

[Guardian Hawk]

As far as the Hewett comparison, he has been competing with prime Cripps (especially) and Walsh for midfield votes. Because of Day's injuries, the past 2 seasons Newcombe has mostly competed with the likes of Worpel and Nash for midfield votes. I still rate Newcombe above Hewett, but don't think the latters best 2 seasons as a Blue have been much different to Newcombe's last few.

Don't let logic and facts get in the way of a good narrative Meowbagger. They don't like them around here.

C'mon Walshy...it's a bit disingenuous to suggest I don't like facts when I've literally used fact after fact after fact to demonstrate that both Holmes and Newcombe have been at a similar level over the course of their careers so far (with Holmes better in 2025) and that Hewett is not in the same conversation. What 'facts' have you presented that shows Hewett has been at the same level as Newcombe over the course of their careers? I've shown you over and over why not.

Even the bit from Meow above (whose posting I normally rate highly) doesn't stand up to any factual analysis. He's essentially saying Hewett's next best season (prior to 2025) has been at Newcombe's level, but cos of Cripps he doesn't get as many votes. Ummm, prior to 2025, Hewett has a TOTAL of 18 Brownlow in 12 seasons. In 2024, he managed a total of 3 votes. 2023 was his next best year as a Blue, where he racked up a total of 5 votes! Guess the teams he collected Brownlow votes against over those 2 seasons? West Coast 3 times, North Melbourne once, Richmond once and Collingwood once. He picked up a total of 1 vote in 2 full years against a team not in the bottom 3.

Guess what happens if I remove Cripps's and Walsh's votes and bump Hewett up in the votes? His career high prior to 2025 is still just 5 votes!! That's right, his career high (without Cripps OR Walsh) is LESS THAN HALF of Newcombe's career LOW!! (obviously not counting the year he was drafted mid season).

The Coaches votes tell the same story. Here, even if you have a superstar stealing all the 10's, you can still get plenty of 7 or 8 vote games if you are next best on ground. But prior to 2025, Hewett has never even managed to crack 30 votes in a season. Agaian, his career high is significantly less than Newcombe's career low.

Then look at finals - Hewett has collected a grand total of 0 coaches votes in 12 finals. Newcombe has 33 in 5.

Hewett stepped up in 2025 and had a very respectable year, winning the best and fairest but any suggestion (as the above clearly demonstrates) that they have been at a similar level over their careers is frankly, preposterous.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

C'mon Walshy...it's a bit disingenuous to suggest I don't like facts when I've literally used fact after fact after fact to demonstrate that both Holmes and Newcombe have been at a similar level over the course of their careers so far (with Holmes better in 2025) and that Hewett is not in the same conversation. What 'facts' have you presented that shows Hewett has been at the same level as Newcombe over the course of their careers? I've shown you over and over why not.

Even the bit from Meow above (whose posting I normally rate highly) doesn't stand up to any factual analysis. He's essentially saying Hewett's next best season (prior to 2025) has been at Newcombe's level, but cos of Cripps he doesn't get as many votes. Ummm, prior to 2025, Hewett has a TOTAL of 18 Brownlow in 12 seasons. In 2024, he managed a total of 3 votes. 2023 was his next best year as a Blue, where he racked up a total of 5 votes! Guess the teams he collected Brownlow votes against over those 2 seasons? West Coast 3 times, North Melbourne once, Richmond once and Collingwood once. He picked up a total of 1 vote in 2 full years against a team not in the bottom 3.

Guess what happens if I remove Cripps's and Walsh's votes and bump Hewett up in the votes? His career high prior to 2025 is still just 5 votes!! That's right, his career high (without Cripps OR Walsh) is LESS THAN HALF of Newcombe's career LOW!! (obviously not counting the year he was drafted mid season).

The Coaches votes tell the same story. Here, even if you have a superstar stealing all the 10's, you can still get plenty of 7 or 8 vote games if you are next best on ground. But prior to 2025, Hewett has never even managed to crack 30 votes in a season. Agaian, his career high is significantly less than Newcombe's career low.

Then look at finals - Hewett has collected a grand total of 0 coaches votes in 12 finals. Newcombe has 33 in 5.

Hewett stepped up in 2025 and had a very respectable year, winning the best and fairest but any suggestion (as the above clearly demonstrates) that they have been at a similar level over their careers is frankly, preposterous.

You've typed all this out and yet you don't even know what two seasons from George were his best... Instead you've just looked at his Brownlow tallies from years we had Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Saad, Weitering etc playing at AA levels and determined that he's a spud.

If you hadn't already realised... The Brownlow is a tremendously flawed award, just like the other major individual awards. As previously mentioned by Meow, players like Holmes have historically never been big vote getters, nor have the George Hewett's of the world. Take this year, Cripps was our top vote getter due to his style of play, but you wouldn't find a Carlton fan out there who would tell you Cripps had a better year than George.

If you look at their actual output, rather than just looking at the awards without the required context... You'll see George's 2022 and 2025 seasons were pretty much on par with what Newcombe dished up the last couple seasons, just as Meowbagger said. That said, neither George or Newcombe have produced a season as good as Holmes did in 2025, which was my original point. Newcombe has more talent than Hewett does, no question about that... But outside of the big game every now and then + a quality finals record, he has never produced a consistently elite season. And that's why I don't rate him as an A grader. Yet.

 

[Mr Meow]

C'mon Walshy...it's a bit disingenuous to suggest I don't like facts when I've literally used fact after fact after fact to demonstrate that both Holmes and Newcombe have been at a similar level over the course of their careers so far (with Holmes better in 2025) and that Hewett is not in the same conversation. What 'facts' have you presented that shows Hewett has been at the same level as Newcombe over the course of their careers? I've shown you over and over why not.

Even the bit from Meow above (whose posting I normally rate highly) doesn't stand up to any factual analysis. He's essentially saying Hewett's next best season (prior to 2025) has been at Newcombe's level, but cos of Cripps he doesn't get as many votes. Ummm, prior to 2025, Hewett has a TOTAL of 18 Brownlow in 12 seasons. In 2024, he managed a total of 3 votes. 2023 was his next best year as a Blue, where he racked up a total of 5 votes! Guess the teams he collected Brownlow votes against over those 2 seasons? West Coast 3 times, North Melbourne once, Richmond once and Collingwood once. He picked up a total of 1 vote in 2 full years against a team not in the bottom 3.

Guess what happens if I remove Cripps's and Walsh's votes and bump Hewett up in the votes? His career high prior to 2025 is still just 5 votes!! That's right, his career high (without Cripps OR Walsh) is LESS THAN HALF of Newcombe's career LOW!! (obviously not counting the year he was drafted mid season).

The Coaches votes tell the same story. Here, even if you have a superstar stealing all the 10's, you can still get plenty of 7 or 8 vote games if you are next best on ground. But prior to 2025, Hewett has never even managed to crack 30 votes in a season. Agaian, his career high is significantly less than Newcombe's career low.

Then look at finals - Hewett has collected a grand total of 0 coaches votes in 12 finals. Newcombe has 33 in 5.

Hewett stepped up in 2025 and had a very respectable year, winning the best and fairest but any suggestion (as the above clearly demonstrates) that they have been at a similar level over their careers is frankly, preposterous.

I'll let you two carry on the whole Newcombe vs Hewett side of the debate in detail. I did think Hewett was very good in 2022 and 2025, even though his coaches and (especially) Brownlow votes tallies don't reflect it. Rightly or wrongly, the umpires/coaches go Cripps and Walsh-crazy for votes. Patrick in particular. There were likely some seasons by Joel Corey, Corey Enright etc where they got snubbed in the best years of Ablett (especially) and Bartel.

Anyway Newcombe with his superior ball use I have over Hewett. He also has that advantage over Holmes, but the latter with his run-and-gun territory game excels in driving us forward - however he is prone to the odd game like the GF where it goes wrong.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I'll let you two carry on the whole Newcombe vs Hewett side of the debate in detail. I did think Hewett was very good in 2022 and 2025, even though his coaches and (especially) Brownlow votes tallies don't reflect it. Rightly or wrongly, the umpires/coaches go Cripps and Walsh-crazy for votes. Patrick in particular. There were likely some seasons by Joel Corey, Corey Enright etc where they got snubbed in the best years of Ablett (especially) and Bartel.

Anyway Newcombe with his superior ball use I have over Hewett. He also has that advantage over Holmes, but the latter with his run-and-gun territory game excels in driving us forward - however he is prone to the odd game like the GF where it goes wrong.

Holmes in 2025 broke into the next bracket of player above players like Newcombe and Hewett. Still has his flaws as a player but the damage he does with his run and carry is top class. Just a metres gained machine even if he's not the most accurate kick of the footy.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

You've typed all this out and yet you don't even know what two seasons from George were his best... Instead you've just looked at his Brownlow tallies from years we had Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Saad, Weitering etc playing at AA levels and determined that he's a spud.

If you hadn't already realised... The Brownlow is a tremendously flawed award, just like the other major individual awards. As previously mentioned by Meow, players like Holmes have historically never been big vote getters, nor have the George Hewett's of the world. Take this year, Cripps was our top vote getter due to his style of play, but you wouldn't find a Carlton fan out there who would tell you Cripps had a better year than George.

If you look at their actual output, rather than just looking at the awards without the required context... You'll see George's 2022 and 2025 seasons were pretty much on par with what Newcombe dished up the last couple seasons, just as Meowbagger said. That said, neither George or Newcombe have produced a season as good as Holmes did in 2025, which was my original point. Newcombe has more talent than Hewett does, no question about that... But outside of the big game every now and then + a quality finals record, he has never produced a consistently elite season. And that's why I don't rate him as an A grader. Yet.

Ok, I can accept the Brownlow is flawed (by the way, please don't use Weitering, Saad and McKay as meaningful reasons an inside mid is not getting any Brownlow votes). But I didn't just speak of the Brownlow. I used Coaches votes, finals performances, AA selection and a range of others throughout this discussion. What do you have that demonstrates Hewett is on the same level as Newcombe over their careers?

Cos to argue otherwise is basically to suggest that every coach, media analyst, etc have no idea whatsoever.

and that's without even raising the ridiculousness of having to 'cherry pick' the 2 best seasons (1 from 4 years ago) of a 29 year old a compare them exclusively to the 2 latest seasons of a 24 year old to even try to make (a demonstrably wrong) comparison in the first place

 

[Mr Meow]

Holmes in 2025 broke into the next bracket of player above players like Newcombe and Hewett. Still has his flaws as a player but the damage he does with his run and carry is top class. Just a metres gained machine even if he's not the most accurate kick of the footy.

His kicking had shown some signs of improvement in the first 2/3 of 2025 as well. It's a shame that it reverted back to haphazard, with the odd disastrous game, in the back end of the season.

At times it's on our forwards from not being proactive enough to find space though. Brisbane are brilliant at shutting that down and so they can really exploit Holmes/Smith's errors. Richmond were the same back in Dangerfield's pomp.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I'll let you two carry on the whole Newcombe vs Hewett side of the debate in detail. I did think Hewett was very good in 2022 and 2025, even though his coaches and (especially) Brownlow votes tallies don't reflect it. Rightly or wrongly, the umpires/coaches go Cripps and Walsh-crazy for votes. Patrick in particular. There were likely some seasons by Joel Corey, Corey Enright etc where they got snubbed in the best years of Ablett (especially) and Bartel.

Anyway Newcombe with his superior ball use I have over Hewett. He also has that advantage over Holmes, but the latter with his run-and-gun territory game excels in driving us forward - however he is prone to the odd game like the GF where it goes wrong.

Not remotely similar to Joel Corey. Corey was a star and everyone knew it. Corey was selected as an All Australian multiple times (Hewett has never been in contention for a squad). Hewett finished top 12 in the Brownlow (with Ablett and Selwood both ahead of him - I haven't wanted to go into all the data on why 'stealing votes' is one of the biggest furphies in footy)). Corey won a best and fairest in a Premiership year. Corey's was top 25 in the Brownlow multiple times, including the year Bartel won and Ablett was favourite. He exceeded Hewett's best in a mere 9 seasons of his career.

Don't even get me started on the Enright comparison - who nearly everyone recognises as one of the greatest half backs of all time and was named AA 6 times and has 2 premiership B&F's.

These are the identifiable hallmarks of elite players. Holmes has these types of awards/placings. Newcombe has these types of awards/placings. Hewett has nothing remotely close that suggests he and Newcombe "are on the same level" as players.

 

[rye]

Based off of more than a singular season, based off more than just basic statistics. Hewett had a strong year but fell off to finish, his class and ceiling is much lower which is why he isn’t near Newcombe. Let alone their impacts on games. It’s not even remotely close.

Holmes and Newcombe have been there abouts for more than a year.

An example of that is Newcombes finals performances. Which is without a doubt the best in the league for purely finals performances.

It’s silly to presume otherwise.

sorry, what?

you genuinely believe newcombe is the best finals player in the league?

do i have this right?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Not remotely similar to Joel Corey. Corey was a star and everyone knew it. Corey was selected as an All Australian multiple times (Hewett has never been in contention for a squad). Hewett finished top 12 in the Brownlow (with Ablett and Selwood both ahead of him - I haven't wanted to go into all the data on why 'stealing votes' is one of the biggest furphies in footy)). Corey won a best and fairest in a Premiership year. Corey's was top 25 in the Brownlow multiple times, including the year Bartel won and Ablett was favourite. He exceeded Hewett's best in a mere 9 seasons of his career.

Don't even get me started on the Enright comparison - who nearly everyone recognises as one of the greatest half backs of all time and was named AA 6 times and has 2 premiership B&F's.

These are the identifiable hallmarks of elite players. Holmes has these types of awards/placings. Newcombe has these types of awards/placings. Hewett has nothing remotely close that suggests he and Newcombe "are on the same level" as players.

Does he? Newcombes great claim to fame is he finished 17th, 10th and 20th in the Brownlow across 2023-2025 and has a good finals record.

Reality is he's done just as little as Hewett has over his career. Both 1 BnF, 0 All Australians, 0 podium finishes in any of the 3 major individual awards...

Neither are A graders by any measure.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

sorry, what?

you genuinely believe newcombe is the best finals player in the league?

do i have this right?

Unfortunately I think they genuinely believe that Rye. Hokball has done a number on their brains.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Does he? Newcombes great claim to fame is he finished 17th, 10th and 20th in the Brownlow across 2023-2025 and has a good finals record.

Reality is he's done just as little as Hewett has over his career. Both 1 BnF, 0 All Australians, 0 podium finishes in any of the 3 major individual awards...

Neither are A graders by any measure.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

By those exact same metrics, Holmes is not A grade either - 2 BnF, 0 AA, 0 podium finishes.

As i have deomostrated to you over and over, Newcombe and Holmes have so far tracked very similarly in terms of awards and rankings in ALL the major league awards. Hewett is nowhere near that.

Please don't make me rewrite it all again.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

That said, neither George or Newcombe have produced a season as good as Holmes did in 2025, which was my original point. Newcombe has more talent than Hewett does, no question about that... But outside of the big game every now and then + a quality finals record, he has never produced a consistently elite season. And that's why I don't rate him as an A grader. Yet.

I have never once argued against the idea that Holmes in 2025 was the best of the lot.

He collected 88 Coaches votes (inclusive of finals), 18 Brownlow votes, won his side's best and fairest and was in the AA squad. That's A grade.

Newcombe's 2024 was pretty similar though. He collected 84 coaches votes, 24 Brownlow votes and won his side's best and fairest. His finals were superb - with him best on in both. That's also A grade.

Hewett has not had a season near that level.

But the argument has always been about them as players (i.e. their whole career) anyway - you keep trying to isolate it to 2025.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

By those exact same metrics, Holmes is not A grade either - 2 BnF, 0 AA, 0 podium finishes.

As i have deomostrated to you over and over, Newcombe and Holmes have so far tracked very similarly in terms of awards and rankings in ALL the major league awards. Hewett is nowhere near that.

Please don't make me rewrite it all again.

Idk about you, but I certainly rate 2 BNF's in a prelim team + a grand final team as a bit more prestigious than a BnF in a team that finished 7th and got beaten by Kenny's coke cans in the finals.

And no, please don't. You've already demonstrated you can't comprehend the idea that it's harder to poll votes in certain teams depending on what type of players they have in their mix and what type of player the player in question is. Holmes is every chance to never be a huge Brownlow poller like Cripps, Rowell etc simply because he plays a role that historically doesn't get as many votes from the umps as the hard nose in and under inside mids do.

Holmes has gone a level above over the last 12-18 months, while Newcombe remains a talented, but inconsistent player. That puts him firmly in the B grade category along with consistent role players like Hewett in my books. As I've previously said, perhaps 2026 will be the year Jai puts it all together, but until then... He is what he is.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I have never once argued against the idea that Holmes in 2025 was the best of the lot.

He collected 88 Coaches votes (inclusive of finals), 18 Brownlow votes, won his side's best and fairest and was in the AA squad. That's A grade.

Newcombe's 2024 was pretty similar though. He collected 84 coaches votes, 24 Brownlow votes and won his side's best and fairest. His finals were superb - with him best on in both. That's also A grade.

Hewett has not had a season near that level.

But the argument has always been about them as players (i.e. their whole career) anyway - you keep trying to isolate it to 2025.

Manipulating data (including GA votes into their coaches votes totals across the season) to suit your narrative isn't going to convince anyone of anything lmao.

Go look at Newcombe's season averages in terms of raw statistical output, then compare it to an actual A grader... It becomes pretty easy to see he's not one at this stage of his career.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not remotely similar to Joel Corey. Corey was a star and everyone knew it. Corey was selected as an All Australian multiple times (Hewett has never been in contention for a squad). Hewett finished top 12 in the Brownlow (with Ablett and Selwood both ahead of him - I haven't wanted to go into all the data on why 'stealing votes' is one of the biggest furphies in footy)). Corey won a best and fairest in a Premiership year. Corey's was top 25 in the Brownlow multiple times, including the year Bartel won and Ablett was favourite. He exceeded Hewett's best in a mere 9 seasons of his career.

Don't even get me started on the Enright comparison - who nearly everyone recognises as one of the greatest half backs of all time and was named AA 6 times and has 2 premiership B&F's.

These are the identifiable hallmarks of elite players. Holmes has these types of awards/placings. Newcombe has these types of awards/placings. Hewett has nothing remotely close that suggests he and Newcombe "are on the same level" as players.

With the Enright/Corey etc comparisons I was talking moreso about their star player (Ablett), with Bartel some seasons as well, hogging the votes. There's only so many to go around. Swap teams for Newcombe and Hewett 2022-2025, and I think the votes would skew quite differently due to their midfield vote competitors.

But anyway my stance in this argument is about Holmes, not Hewett. And Max was also not in a position to be an absolute vote machine until his move to midfield in the 2024 finals series. Which actually makes his tally as an outside player rotating half back and wing that season all the more impressive. Arguably moreso than his 2025 effort, but of course midfielders are always given more recognition.

Newcombe was ahead of Holmes earlier as he was already capable of being a really good midfielder - Max had elite bursts as an outside player 2022-2023 but hadn't put it all together yet. Still better than his vote tallies would suggest. 2024-2025 he's moved past him and should continue to do so as long as he retains elite capacity in 3 different positions/roles. Players like that are incredibly valuable. You know all about players unlucky to miss AA selection (Hawthorn Clarkson dynasty era) - well Holmes has had a double whammy 2024/2025 for the halfback line and midfield respectively.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Manipulating data (including GA votes into their coaches votes totals across the season) to suit your narrative isn't going to convince anyone of anything lmao.

Go look at Newcombe's season averages in terms of raw statistical output, then compare it to an actual A grader... It becomes pretty easy to see he's not one at this stage of his career.

I'm not manipulating data - the only website I'm familiar with that tracks Coaches votes for all players is this one: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_player_profile.html?id=140c0df which includes finals votes as well (i.e. the same site I showed you all the comparative data between Holmes and Newcombe earlier).

Whether you call someone an A grader or not is definately of no interest to me cos everyone applies those terms differently. My concern is the notion that Holmes is 'miles better' - if Holmes' career to date makes him A grade, then Newcombe is on a similar level. Hewett has not been on that level and you've still given nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

You say I don't understand how Brownlow votes are awarded - but I've not argued Brownlow votes in isolation - I've used all data available - Coaches votes, Brownlow votes, Finals performances, AA selection, B&F results, stats - everything. All you've used is excuses as to why the entire football world has not recognised Hewett in the same way they have Newcombe and shown nothing on their career to date that counters my view, the coaches view, the media's view, AA selectors view, etc.

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm not manipulating data - the only website I'm familiar with that tracks Coaches votes for all players is this one: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_player_profile.html?id=140c0df which includes finals votes as well (i.e. the same site I showed you all the comparative data between Holmes and Newcombe earlier).

Whether you call someone an A grader or not is definately of no interest to me cos everyone applies those terms differently. My concern is the notion that Holmes is 'miles better' - if Holmes' career to date makes him A grade, then Newcombe is on a similar level. Hewett has not been on that level and you've still given nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

You say I don't understand how Brownlow votes are awarded - but I've not argued Brownlow votes in isolation - I've used all data available - Coaches votes, Brownlow votes, Finals performances, AA selection, B&F results, stats - everything. All you've used is excuses as to why the entire football world has not recognised Hewett in the same way they have Newcombe and shown nothing on their career to date that counters my view, the coaches view, the media's view, AA selectors view, etc.

One similarity between Newcombe and Hewett is that neither has been seen as a genuine contender for the final AA team of 22. Holmes was certainly in a lot of people's projected teams the past 2 seasons and no other player is universally talked about as unlucky to miss out not once but twice 2024-2025.

Newcombe has had elite stretches, especially including finals, but never a full season where he was consistently rated as one of the absolute top mids (unlike Holmes as a halfback in 2024 and midfielder in 2025). The back to back BnFs in the 2nd best team in the comp really slam that point home. It's just one small rung beneath achieving the same thing at Brisbane for their b2b years. And he did it as a 21-23 year old (turning 23 at the start of the 2025 finals series)

 

[Guardian Hawk]

With the Enright/Corey etc comparisons I was talking moreso about their star player (Ablett), with Bartel some seasons as well, hogging the votes. There's only so many to go around. Swap teams for Newcombe and Hewett 2022-2025, and I think the votes would skew quite differently due to their midfield vote competitors.

But anyway my stance in this argument is about Holmes, not Hewett. And Max was also not in a position to be an absolute vote machine until his move to midfield in the 2024 finals series. Which actually makes his tally as an outside player rotating half back and wing that season all the more impressive. Arguably moreso than his 2025 effort, but of course midfielders are always given more recognition.

Newcombe was ahead of Holmes earlier as he was already capable of being a really good midfielder - Max had elite bursts as an outside player 2022-2023 but hadn't put it all together yet. Still better than his vote tallies would suggest. 2024-2025 he's moved past him and should continue to do so as long as he retains elite capacity in 3 different positions/roles. Players like that are incredibly valuable. You know all about players unlucky to miss AA selection (Hawthorn Clarkson dynasty era) - well Holmes has had a double whammy 2024/2025 for the halfback line and midfield respectively.

I have a Board meeting tomorrow morning so I really don't want to get in to all the data but the 'vote stealing' and the idea that it is easier to accrue votes in a unsupported/weak midfield vs a strong midfield is a BIG myth. The vast, vast majority of players play better (and poll better) when they are surrounded by other good players. Most Brownlow winners come from top 4 teams with multiple good midfielders. The overwhelming majority come from finals teams (the couple of exceptions we have seen are once in a generation players like Ablett Jnr and peak Fyfe). Most Brownlow winners come from teams where another player from their team is also top 30 in the Brownlow. The Joel Corey example you used is a perfect illustration of this. Bartel won, Ablett top 5 and Corey top 25. The other year, he had Selwood and Ablett ahead of him. All of his best seasons (both performance wise and vote wise) were when he had other elite mids (and high vote getters) around him. This is true of most players.

I've also already demonstrated that Hewett was not being held back by Walsh and Cripps. Hell, I went through and calculated how many votes were 'stolen' by those 2 and the tallies barely changed (As I said, his best season was still just 5 votes). His performances prior to 2025 just haven't stacked up - as literally every data point demonstrates (not least the coaches votes).

 

[Mr Meow]

I have a Board meeting tomorrow morning so I really don't want to get in to all the data but the 'vote stealing' and the idea that it is easier to accrue votes in a unsupported/weak midfield vs a strong midfield is a BIG myth. The vast, vast majority of players play better (and poll better) when they are surrounded by other good players. Most Brownlow winners come from top 4 teams with multiple good midfielders. The overwhelming majority come from finals teams (the couple of exceptions we have seen are once in a generation players like Ablett Jnr and peak Fyfe). Most Brownlow winners come from teams where another player from their team is also top 30 in the Brownlow. The Joel Corey example you used is a perfect illustration of this. Bartel won, Ablett top 5 and Corey top 25. The other year, he had Selwood and Ablett ahead of him. All of his best seasons (both performance wise and vote wise) were when he had other elite mids (and high vote getters) around him. This is true of most players.

I've also already demonstrated that Hewett was not being held back by Walsh and Cripps. Hell, I went through and calculated how many votes were 'stolen' by those 2 and the tallies barely changed (As I said, his best season was still just 5 votes). His performances prior to 2025 just haven't stacked up - as literally every data point demonstrates (not least the coaches votes).

Hewett's coaches votes spiked this season when Cripps was down (despite his baffling Brownlow love) and Walsh injured/missing.

Corey polled 30.5 coaches votes per season during 2007-2010 Ablett mania. 40.3 votes per season for 2005-2006 + 2011 surrounding that period despite objectively playing to a comfortably lower standard.

Dangerfield and Selwood polled better 2016-2017 before there was more competition from Cam Guthrie/Mitch Duncan stepping up, Tim Kelly arriving etc 2018-2020.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

sorry, what?

you genuinely believe newcombe is the best finals player in the league?

do i have this right?

I believe off his finals performance record he is either the best currently or one of. More the latter. He’s been best on in almost every single finals game he’s played in. It’s obviously not “he for certain is” because he hasn’t done it on the big stage of a grand final yet, cumulatively he is for sure up there.

Do take back the wording of “certainly” but certainly in the mix, and has a good case for that to be true.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Manipulating data (including GA votes into their coaches votes totals across the season) to suit your narrative isn't going to convince anyone of anything lmao.

Go look at Newcombe's season averages in terms of raw statistical output, then compare it to an actual A grader... It becomes pretty easy to see he's not one at this stage of his career.

Omg let’s go look at disposal counts