Religion Bondi shooting - 16 confirmed dead at Jewish event

[Johnny Bananas]

Our entire foundation was built on Christian values including our legal, social and political values. That's what happened when the British landed here and created a nation.

Christian legal values specify that a man can r*pe a virgin if he pays her father 50 shekels and marries her, that people should be stoned to death for adultery (or gathering wood on the Sabbath), and in many cases seems to use the principle of "an eye for an eye". It's completely wrong to suggest the English legal code was based on this. Rather, it seems to come from a combination of Roman civil law and the Magna Carta, as well as other legal developments indigenous to Britain.

The social value of egalitarianism with no landed ruling class that Australia prides itself on comes from the French Revolution. It certainly isn't based on Christianity, with its documented support for slavery, both in the Bible and in recorded history. And the political values we pride ourselves on are democracy, which comes from ancient Greece, and liberalism, which emerged from the English Civil War.

So none of these values are explicitly Christian. At best some of them were developed by people who were Christians, but some of them predated Christianity altogether.

 

[sherb]

Which group commits more acts of terror worldwide? Let's start there.

If the reverse were true, we'd be talking about it the other way around.

It's not, so here we are.

I know those who claim to represent the Jewish faith have slaughtered around 70,000 people in one specific part of the world in just over 2 years.

Do they win?

 

[sherb]

Its not a gun issue, it's an imported ancient hostility issue. Blaming an object gives cover for the government to avoid addressing the root cause.

Correction - it's not exclusively a gun issue.

 

[bzparkes]

I know those who claim to represent the Jewish faith have slaughtered around 70,000 people in one specific part of the world in just over 2 years.

Do they win?

Nope.

Sudanese islamists did more than that in just the past 2 months.

 

[evolved2]

I'm not interested in the Atrocity Olympics, or picking which religion is better or worse.

What are you interested in discussing?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The premise is wrong. Israel didn’t retroactively politicise a neutral symbol, it was founded as the nation state of the Jewish people and its symbols were explicitly chosen to reflect that.

I trust the Jewish people I've met to know their religion better than you. Many Jews disagreed with the entire premise of Zionism and rejected the idea of a colony being set up to displace other people for a Jewish supremacist state. Again, the Star of David represented the Jewish people, not Zionism specifically, but it has now been co-opted for Zionism. Not all Jews are Zionist, and if it's antisemitic to hold all Jews responsible for the actions of Israel, then by the same logic, it's antisemitic to use Israel to represent all Jews worldwide.

The flag’s Jewish meaning isn’t accidental or imposed later, it was part of its foundation.

Nobody's arguing that, so I don't know who you're addressing. My point is that the designers took icons representing all Jews and used them to instead represent one nation dominated by Jews. Not every Jewish person is on board with that.

 

[10571z]

Christian legal values specify that a man can r*pe a virgin if he pays her father 50 shekels and marries her, that people should be stoned to death for adultery (or gathering wood on the Sabbath), and in many cases seems to use the principle of "an eye for an eye". It's completely wrong to suggest the English legal code was based on this. Rather, it seems to come from a combination of Roman civil law and the Magna Carta, as well as other legal developments indigenous to Britain.

The social value of egalitarianism with no landed ruling class that Australia prides itself on comes from the French Revolution. It certainly isn't based on Christianity, with its documented support for slavery, both in the Bible and in recorded history. And the political values we pride ourselves on are democracy, which comes from ancient Greece, and liberalism, which emerged from the English Civil War.

So none of these values are explicitly Christian. At best some of them were developed by people who were Christians, but some of them predated Christianity altogether.

You’re mixing up old biblical laws with the Christian values that actually shaped English society. Australia inherited its system from England, where Christianity strongly influenced ideas like the value of each person, fairness under the law, limits on power, and helping others. English law didn’t come straight from the Bible, but it developed in a culture where Christian beliefs were the norm. Democracy and liberal ideas didn’t replace Christianity, they grew inside Christian societies. So while these values aren’t only Christian, it’s wrong to say Christianity had no foundational role in what Australia was built on.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Identities being released. Victims include 10y/o child, French nationals, Israeli nationals, a Holocaust survivor, a rabbi with a 2 month old child.

Just horrific. So sad

 

[campbell]

Brown sauce for me.

ooo, I really like Lancashire Relish.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Nope.

Sudanese islamists did more than that in just the past 2 months.

I wonder which country/s supply most of the weapons to both Israel and Sudan?

 

[Romeoh1]

Our values are those of a liberal democracy where we have individual rights, the rule of law, fair and free elections, freedom of opinion, equality of the sexes, a free press, freedom of religion, freedom of movement, the right to own property. You’d struggle to find most or even any of these in the countries groups of immigrants come from.

I’d suggest that claim is debatable. And we have had a few mass shootings in Australia - pretty sure most people didn’t share the values the perpetrators had. ( variety of backgrounds).
Nonetheless, if you refer to supposed ‘Christian values’, if you like, I’d have thought most people in the world hold those beliefs, regardless of where they come from.
Ps- pretty well all those things you’ve listed are no longer applicable to the USA. So we don’t want immigrants from there either I take it?

 

[sherb]

Nope.

Sudanese islamists did more than that in just the past 2 months.

The Israeli terrorists/mass murderers have a solid place on the leader board though.

 

[MrBarry]

You have to control what you can control. The shooter shouldn't have been able to own any weapons let alone 6. Of course there are always many issues at play but you can't make it easy for people to do this. Thankfully it looks like the laws will be changing.

Is it easy? Australia has some of the most stringent gun laws, obtaining fire arms isn't what I would call easy.

 

[campbell]

You are all immigrants in Australia

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Nope.

Sudanese islamists did more than that in just the past 2 months.

This is incorrect, the warring parties in Sudan are not Islamists, they're Arab supremacists. The people they killed were Muslims who were not Arab.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Bacon sandwiches could united the middle east if only we could get them to embrace them. Nobody can feel angry after a good bacon butty.

mmmmm, bacon butty, with tomato sauce.....

The metamorphosis of Jesus Christ from a humble servant of the abject poor to a symbol that stands for gun rights, prosperity theology, anti-science, limited government (that neglects the destitute), and fierce nationalism is truly the strangest transformation in human history. -Rainn Wilson

Brown sauce for me.

Yep,

Bacon should receive the Nobel peace prize in my opinion….

Honorary mention to the Bunnings sausage sizzle on weekends…..

All this talk about bacon... and Jesus. What if the One True Jesus was... Bacon Jesus?

 

[damicky]

Yep,

Bacon should receive the Nobel peace prize in my opinion….

Honorary mention to the Bunnings sausage sizzle on weekends…..

I was going to say something … THEN I remembered that we are going to the USA next year

 

[beside the seaside]

Is it easy? Australia has some of the most stringent gun laws, obtaining fire arms isn't what I would call easy.

Well this guy owned 6 guns and his son had links to IS so I'd say it was too easy.

 

[T2B_]

News out now that Muslim gravesites in Sydney have been desecrated. Didn’t take long for the idiots to appear

Wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the perps have been in this thread

 

[Chief]

Is that on the citizenship test?

You'll be moving on, then?

 

[Gethelred]

Eff me dead. Two Islamist radicals shoot up a Jewish picnic at Bondi in an anti semetic slaughter and people in here are arguing about what flags can and can’t be flown, if Christianity is as bad as Islam and splitting hairs about stupid shit.

No wonder our society is ****ed beyond recognition. We just keep bending over for the power hungry government and elites to do what serves their veiled agenda best….. divide us, allow us to dehumanise each other and bicker with each other about shit that doesn’t matter while they accumulate more and more power and control over us.

****s sake.

I mean, you've taken issue with multiple people wanting to discuss tightening gun laws in this thread. In my opinion, you trying to enshrine the rights of hunters over the priorities of society not to be subject to gun violence is stupid shit; does that mean I should castigate or attack you for choosing to discuss it in here, and then extrapolate that you've chosen to do so in here to a conclusion about how society is ****ed?

People talk about what they want to talk about. Who are you to dictate to them what they should be talking about?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You’re mixing up old biblical laws with the Christian values that actually shaped English society. Australia inherited its system from England, where Christianity strongly influenced ideas like the value of each person, fairness under the law, limits on power, and helping others.

No it didn't. You're confusing Christian law with the Roman civil code, which was based on procedural fairness. Which part of Christian law specifically was about placing limits on power? This again is predated by the Roman Republic having a division of power between the Senate, tribunes and magistrates.

English law didn’t come straight from the Bible, but it developed in a culture where Christian beliefs were the norm.

And yet laws developed differently in many other places where Christianity was also the norm, like Ethiopia. Why?

Democracy and liberal ideas didn’t replace Christianity, they grew inside Christian societies.

Democracy quite literally is older than Christianity. Calling it a Christian value is nonsense of the highest order. Liberalism grew in a society where the influence of Christianity had long since peaked. After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, political development came outside of Christianity, though the royal court and individual philosophers, not through the church or the clergy.

So while these values aren’t only Christian, it’s wrong to say Christianity had no foundational role in what Australia was built on.

Yes, Christians were responsible for much of the early mistreatment and displacement of our Indigenous population, under the guise of saving their souls and civilising them. Not to mention how much Christianity in modern Australia has disgraced itself by turning into a vehicle for paedophiles to gain access to victims, then covering it all up for decades. I think modern Australia has moved well past Christianity, no matter how much Christians kick and scream that everything good in life is because of them.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

1. I don't know if a French flag was flying or not.
2. Why are you so hung up on a flag that was flying at a private vigil for people mourning their loved ones who just died?

One of the men who died was French

 

[Festerz]

Is it easy? Australia has some of the most stringent gun laws, obtaining fire arms isn't what I would call easy.

And yet one man living in the suburbs of Australia's largest city, with a son who was under ASIO observation for links to a known terrorist organisation, was able to purchase/own and store six firearms with fast action firing capabilities and undertake training with his son at a gun club for those weapons.

Apparently the sharing of information between state and federal authorities on potential risks posed by those with gun ownership licences is still conducted via paper recording in some states. When it comes to risk mitigation, those regulations are neither complete nor up to date and open to misuse.

I admit I am commenting from a position of personal ignorance. But from what I have heard over the past 24 hours from those who do know what they are talking about suggests to me that the rationale for a review of gun ownership laws in Australia at both the state and federal level are long overdue - regardless of how they stack up with laws in other nations.

 

[bzparkes]

One of the men who died was French

I know but I don't find it relevant which flags were present, unless they were mourning the shooter and waving ISIS flags, that is.