2012 AFL Draft Combine - News and Invitees

[Chris25]

And back to the interesting stuff. A few tweets have come out about some of the SA kids...

20m Sprint
O'Brien - 2.93
Sumner - 2.98
Broomhead - 2.99
Irra - 3.03
Murdoch - 3.04
DeMatteis - 3.06
Baldasso - 3.07
Hannath - 3.07
Grundy - 3.10

Not sure what happened with DeMatteis there. He'd be one of the quicker players in the draft, I daresay if it was a 100m sprint then he would come out on top. Excellent time for the big forward O'Brien.

Agility
O'Brien - 8.30
Irra - 8.30
Murdoch - 8.48
Sumner - 8.55
Broomhead - 8.64
DeMatteis - 8.64
Baldasso - 8.70
Grundy - 8.88
Hannath - 8.98

As for the non South Australians, word is that Adam Saad and Jake Neade recorded the fastest 20m sprints with 2.81 seconds. While Dean Towers has continued on with his form, scoring a 2.89. With fellow North Ballarat Rebel, Lucas Herbert finishing at 2.96.

 

[Slattery_20]

That helps as well. I am not saying that increasing the size of our talent pool won't lead to better athletes, I am saying it is unfair to compare burst abilities from one sport that relies on them, to burst abilities from a sport that relies on endurance. Totally unfair. You may as well compare burst ability of sprinters to marathon runners then conclude that marathon runners are inferior athletes, because they have less agility and vertical leap.

It's a huge determinant, along with resources
Look at the medals tallies from the olympics: USA - China - Russia - UK - Germany - Japan

All lots of people, & lots of money/resources dedicated to identifying & training the best prospects from the population. No one 'standout' racial group that I can see (USA's best athlete, by far, a pasty white guy)

AFL has only really started to get serious about talent identification in the last decade - USA have had pro sports with scouts & drafts for 50 odd years.

 

[WAguru]

Im not going to argue with you anymore, if you can't acknowledge the profound effect a player like Naitanui has had on the competition, his ability, as a big man to explode from congestion, leap onto blokes shoulders and maintain these abilities whilst enhancing his aerobic capacity, you're a lost cause.

The clubs pushed for an American combine, they want access to these exceptional athletes.

Why you have bought rock climbing into these still has me laughing.

 

[Tazwegian]

Why you have bought rock climbing into these still has me laughing.

Rock climbing? Lmfao. Try cycling... and reading people's posts a bit more closely. There is no point to this argument, simply because I am right and it isn't worth my time trying to make you see that I am.

 

[WAguru]

How you can sit there and argue that a aerobic base can't be built into an explosive athlete, when Naitanui is right in front of you, blows the mind.

Open your eyes.

PS. I'm right.

 

[LemmingMaster]

When you're talking about Elite players, you're comparing them to other AFL players not the elite sportsmen from marthon runners and 100m runners.

Dangerfield, Jetta have elite speed and very good tanks.
NicNat has elite speed, jumping and agility (for his height) and has grown to have a decent tank.

 

[LemmingMaster]

And back to the interesting stuff. A few tweets have come out about some of the SA kids...

20m Sprint
O'Brien - 2.93

Agility
O'Brien - 8.30

Well that does not hurt his chances in the slightest.

 

[Fatcat08]

How you can sit there and argue that a aerobic base can't be built into an explosive athlete, when Naitanui is right in front of you, blows the mind.

Open your eyes.

PS. I'm right.

WAguru, I don't think anyone argues that an explosive athlete can build an aerobic base, the point that is being made is that to build that aerobic base you do have to sacrifice explosive power, its pure body mechanics. Now the level of sacrifice that will have to be made is very dependant on the individual, but regardless some level of explosive power will diminish.

The main point I think Tazwegian was trying to make is that none of the Americans who tested yesterday were unbelievably better in their vertical jump than a number of the Australian kids ( in fact some of the kids tested better). The early assumption that's probably being (incorrectly) made however is that their endurance won't be as nearly as good as our kids who are playing the game. They probably won't test as well as the top tier but neither do I think they will be down the bottom, especially in the beep test, as this is used as a significant part of their basketball training. The 3km time trial they may struggle more in.

Basically until all the testing is done we won't know how they compare to our players overall. Pure numbers suggest however that they should rate fairly highly overall when compared to our juniors. Their populations suggests that they should have more elite athletes.

Final point to note is that they are 22, 22 and 24 and have all been in Uni Basketball programs which are only one step down from an NBA environment, therefore they will be significantly more developed than the other draftees, due to age and superior training.

 

[Tazwegian]

How you can sit there and argue that a aerobic base can't be built into an explosive athlete, when Naitanui is right in front of you, blows the mind.

Open your eyes.

PS. I'm right.

That's a straw man. I never said an aerobic base can't be built into an explosive athlete, what I said was as aerobic base reaches levels sufficient to be an AFL player, burst ability is going to go down. Go grab Ussain Bolt, get his endurance levels sufficient to acheive a 16 on a beep test, then test his sprint. As if it is going to be as fast as it is now. That is basically what you are saying. Nic Nat does not help you, compared to the upper echelon of athletes from low endurance sports like basketball, Nic Nat's leap is actually pretty low. Nic Nat could go to the gym, work on building muscle, and get his leap to be much higher than it is now. It works both ways. When you get a guy who can jump 120 cms and can run a 16.0 beep test, come back and see me.

Just for another example, the highest confirmed beep test in the NBA is 14 from a guy called Steve Nash (some rumours say 17, but that's unlikely). What's his vertical leap? about 74cms. Which is pretty ordinary for a NBL player.

Lebron can barely even get through a game of basketball:

http://www.examiner.com/article/nba-champ-lebron-james-teaches-runners-a-lesson-on-endurance

You are comparing endurance athletes to burst athletes, that is why you are failing to make a cogent argument.

 

[WAguru]

WAguru, I don't think anyone argues that an explosive athlete can build an aerobic base, the point that is being made is that to build that aerobic base you do have to sacrifice explosive power, its pure body mechanics. Now the level of sacrifice that will have to be made is very dependant on the individual, but regardless some level of explosive power will diminish.

Again, I'm not saying this won't occur to some extent, nut once more, look at Naitanui, he has built his aerobic base and the effect on his leaping and sprinting ability is negligible.

Naitanui has been the eye opener, this is the reason the clubs pushed the AFL to explore the world for better athletes to hold down the ruck spot.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/146046/default.aspx

And in regard to these boys not being exceptionally better than our crop when testing there vertical and running jump, two of the three who made the trip down under have tested in the top 3% for these two criteria.

They both happen to be over 200cm. It's a healthy base for a project ruckman.

 

[Tazwegian]

The early assumption that's probably being (incorrectly) made however is that their endurance won't be as nearly as good as our kids who are playing the game. They probably won't test as well as the top tier but neither do I think they will be down the bottom, especially in the beep test, as this is used as a significant part of their basketball training. The 3km time trial they may struggle more in.

I haven't made that assumption. Earlier I posted that "it seems as though [Wallace] will need to lose weight and work on his endurance just by the look of him. Although I suppose we will find out more about his endurance tomorrow". It is definitely not out of the question that Wallace may be testing very well on endurance, his burst abilities aren't as impressive as I imagined they would be.

I also agree with your comments "Basically until all the testing is done we won't know how they compare to our players overall. Pure numbers suggest however that they should rate fairly highly overall when compared to our juniors. Their populations suggests that they should have more elite athletes".

I am sorry for hijacking the thread, Chris. I just think we have to be fair when comparing athletic ability that we take into account all factors. Back to the results

 

[WAguru]

That's a straw man. I never said an aerobic base can't be built into an explosive athlete, what I said was as aerobic base reaches levels sufficient to be an AFL player, burst ability is going to go down. Go grab Ussain Bolt, get his endurance levels sufficient to acheive a 16 on a beep test, then test his sprint. As if it is going to be as fast as it is now.

So you think if Ussain Bolt were to be able to get up to a 16 beep test he'd lose the ability to run fast?

That is basically what you are saying. Nic Nat does not help you, compared to the upper echelon of athletes from low endurance sports like basketball, Nic Nat's leap is actually pretty low.

Well that's just false. Nicknat scored a 102cm running vertical, that's 40.2 inches in the old scale, he would have been the third best at the 2012 NBA combine with his score.

Nic Nat could go to the gym, work on building muscle, and get his leap to be much higher than it is now. It works both ways. When you get a guy who can jump 120 cms and can run a 16.0 beep test, come back and see me.

Lol - Nicknat jumps over a metre for a running vertical and last year recorded a mid 13 beep test, not bad for a ruckman eh?

Lebron can barely even get through a game of basketball:

http://www.examiner.com/article/nba-champ-lebron-james-teaches-runners-a-lesson-on-endurance

You are comparing endurance athletes to burst athletes, that is why you are failing to make a cogent argument.

Lebron plays games days in a row, they play upward of 80 games a season, with play-offs to follow.

So basically NBA players, but the end of their season, if in the play offs have played over 100 games if they make it to the big dance, AFL players play 30 at most including pre-season.

Im saying that players with exceptional explosiveness and athletic prowess can be developed to the point where their athletic gifts are still maintained and their aerobic base increases.

As evidenced by Naitanui.

You are comparing them.

 

[Tazwegian]

So you think if Ussain Bolt were to be able to get up to a 16 beep test he'd lose the ability to run fast?

I think this is where you are misunderstanding me. He'd be fast, but nowhere near as explosive as he is now. I think you think I am saying that these guys would go from being fast, to being slow, or from being able to jump high, to barely being able to jump at all. I am not saying that. I am saying that you can't fairly compare the burst attributes of people from a sport that relies on burst attributes, to the burst attributes of athletes from a sport that relies on endurance. Higher endurance equates to lower burst.

Please don't think that I am saying that these athletes will not still be impressive once they build their endurance up. They will. But the endurance base will round off some of that burst ability. It is simple body mechanics.

 

[Patron]

How has nobody mentioned twitch fibres in this entire argument? Your body can only be made up of a certain percentage of each. You can with training increase he number of slow twitch fibres by a small percentage. Yes you can add some endurance to athletes like NN and the Americans but due to their high levels of fast twitch fibres they will never be elite endurance athletes.
There is no reason that above average fitness american athletes cannot compete endurance wise after a year or two of training with AFL players.
The american athletes definitely present potential to find athletes similar to NN. Not many but one every few years is not out of the question. The problem after that is finding one who has actual football ability and Nic nats touch etc. Given only a couple of Americans will even try our sport a year i don't see them revolutionising our game any time soon.
Back to the combine...

 

[Offsider]

And back to the interesting stuff. A few tweets have come out about some of the SA kids...

20m Sprint
O'Brien - 2.93
Sumner - 2.98
Broomhead - 2.99
Irra - 3.03
Murdoch - 3.04
DeMatteis - 3.06
Baldasso - 3.07
Hannath - 3.07
Grundy - 3.10

Not sure what happened with DeMatteis there. He'd be one of the quicker players in the draft, I daresay if it was a 100m sprint then he would come out on top. Excellent time for the big forward O'Brien.

Agility
O'Brien - 8.30
Irra - 8.30
Murdoch - 8.48
Sumner - 8.55
Broomhead - 8.64
DeMatteis - 8.64
Baldasso - 8.70
Grundy - 8.88
Hannath - 8.98

As for the non South Australians, word is that Adam Saad and Jake Neade recorded the fastest 20m sprints with 2.81 seconds. While Dean Towers has continued on with his form, scoring a 2.89. With fellow North Ballarat Rebel, Lucas Herbert finishing at 2.96.

I am not surprised to see O'Brien dominate his athletic ability is excellent and it really shows in games. Louis Herbert is definitely a massive draft smokey imo as well.

 

[Tazwegian]

How has nobody mentioned twitch fibres in this entire argument? Your body can only be made up of a certain percentage of each. You can with training increase he number of slow twitch fibres by a small percentage. Yes you can add some endurance to athletes like NN and the Americans but due to their high levels of fast twitch fibres they will never be elite endurance athletes.
There is no reason that above average fitness american athletes cannot compete endurance wise after a year or two of training with AFL players.

Agree with what you have written here. I don't think anyone in this debate has suggested that the American athletes cannot compete endurance wise after sufficient training. In fact, I was saying exactly what you have said here, accept you have added twitch fibres into it, which is a good point.

Sorry if you guys think this stuff is off topic, but I think it is worth discussing in context of all these overseas athletes participating at the draft combine.

 

[Chris25]

Repeat Sprints
Broomhead - 24.98 (6th fastest overall)
O'Brien - 25.19
DeMatteis - 25.35
Murdoch - 25.73
Irra - 25.73
Hannath - 25.83
Baldasso - 26.46

Just a few more results from the South Australians before the top 10 lists are published by the AFL website - which will feature Matthew Haynes at the top with a very quick 23.91.

Also, for anyone wondering Sam Colquhoun is not testing as he will be playing in the SANFL Reserves GF on the weekend. While Paul Marschall did not attend, and there have been rumours of him not entering the draft.

 

[Chris25]

Top 10 results for the 20m sprint, repeat sprints and agility run can be found here.

I've also updated the OP with the top 10 lists so far.

 

[mitchzz]

Wasn't Shannon Taylor killing it last year? Whats changed this year?

 

[Chris25]

Taylor's results from last year would this year have placed him...

5th in the Standing Vertical Jump
8th in the Running Vertical Jump
3rd in the 20m Sprint
1st in the Agility
2nd in the Repeat Sprints

Not sure what has happened this year, haven't heard his name.

Also, the goal kicking test has been conducted today. It seems like a completely pointless test to me, but nonetheless three players so far have scored a perfect 5 from 5 - Jake Stringer, Jesse Lonergan and Andrew Boston.

 

[Cmarsh]

Taylor's results from last year would this year have placed him...


Also, the goal kicking test has been conducted today. It seems like a completely pointless test to me, but nonetheless three players so far have scored a perfect 5 from 5 - Jake Stringer, Jesse Lonergan and Andrew Boston.

Why would a test to see how well you could kick for goal be pointless?

 

[Chris25]

I just think it's all for show. Good on them for trying to think up a way to test it, but really what can you learn from a player having 5 shots at goal with no pressure? You always hear coaches saying that a player constantly kicks straight during practice, but then put them into an actual match and their kicking is all over the place.

It's the same reason I think the kicking test means very little - last year Shane Nelson scored 97%, but watch him in a game and you wouldn't have guessed that.

 

[Tazwegian]

Taylor's results from last year would this year have placed him...

5th in the Standing Vertical Jump
8th in the Running Vertical Jump
3rd in the 20m Sprint
1st in the Agility
2nd in the Repeat Sprints

Not sure what has happened this year, haven't heard his name.

Also, the goal kicking test has been conducted today. It seems like a completely pointless test to me, but nonetheless three players so far have scored a perfect 5 from 5 - Jake Stringer, Jesse Lonergan and Andrew Boston.

Somebody drug test him. He is all over this combine. Killing it!

 

[Tazwegian]

I disagree that there is no pressure on the shot for goal. It would be massive pressure, really. Doing that in front of all those clubs that are judging your merit as a footballer. I'd say that'd be a lot more pressure than taking a set shot in the first quarter of a round 1 home and away match.

 

[Chris25]

No doubt, but it's a different kind of pressure. And one they've been under all year, and in all the testing this week. But it's a whole different kettle of fish in a game situation, when you're already tired and banged up. Just taking 5 shots at goal from predetermined positions (which you've had plenty of time to practice) doesn't even compare in my mind.

Basically, what I would take out of it, isn't who were in the top 10. But who were in the bottom 10. If you can't kick straight now, then I wouldn't be holding out much hope during a match.