2014 Non-Crows AFL Discussion

[Don Muraco]

"I can't recall" is a favourite

 

[Red mist]

"I can't recall" is a favourite

Contra style

 

[Mattrox]

Deny, deny , deny

Nope. If you deny, and evidence showed you lied, you are no longer a credible witness and the case against you is stronger (see James Hird)

Say nothing and force others to come up with evidence. You get to the stand with nothing on record. Dank adopted this tactic too late, he fluffed the interview where he said he was using TB4. When the journo pointed out that was on the banned list he got all flustered. Called the journo back after, said he accidentally got mixed up and it was thymomodulin.....

 

[Red mist]

Nope. If you deny, and evidence showed you lied, you are no longer a credible witness and the case against you is stronger (see James Hird)

Say nothing and force others to come up with evidence. You get to the stand with nothing on record. Dank adopted this tactic too late, he fluffed the interview where he said he was using TB4. When the journo pointed out that was on the banned list he got all flustered. Called the journo back after, said he accidentally got mixed up and it was thymomodulin.....

Surely DANK must be credible in all this process. Get a payslip from EFC FFS.

 

[Mattrox]

Surely DANK must be credible in all this process. Get a payslip from EFC FFS.

He has always said "everything they took was legal" but he has no records of what each individual got......

He's a weasle. He's hung out the players and has no remorse.

 

[LiquidCrow]

Why did he turn up in court? And sit and listen early stage. WTF and looked a bit like nobody can touch me.

Like many seduced by the Essendon groupthink, Dank probably thought that they would be successful in having the ASADA investigation deemed illegal and would use the opportunity for some free publicity. That the hearing went against Essendon and Dank walked off refusing to answer questions is probably no coincidence.

The alleged medicare fraud is another matter entirely. If he was forging signatures, then Dank should probably be in jail. Whether the mass investigations should have been eligible for bulk billing or funded privately by Essendon/players is less clear as in most cases a gap payment usually occurs at the discretion of the health service provider.

 

[Red mist]

He has always said "everything they took was legal" but he has no records of what each individual got......

He's a Ayer. He's hung out the players and has no remorse.

Neither does EFC as they have taken the same stance re records. If anybody thinks that the players are totally at fault, they are dead wrong. Their club, that they would bleed for has much more interest in smudging the details of their regime.

 

[Red mist]

Like many seduced by the Essendon groupthink, Dank probably thought that they would be successful in having the ASADA investigation deemed illegal and would use the opportunity for some free publicity. That the hearing went against Essendon and Dank walked off refusing to answer questions is probably no coincidence.

The alleged medicare fraud is another matter entirely. If he was forging signatures, then Dank should probably be in jail. Whether the mass investigations should have been eligible for bulk billing or funded privately by Essendon/players is less clear as in most cases a gap payment usually occurs at the discretion of the health service provider.

Available on Medicare thymosin beta 4? As a bulk bill?

 

[LiquidCrow]

Available on Medicare thymosin beta 4? As a bulk bill?

Just to clarify, the TB4 injection isn't TGA approved, so would not be available as a subsidised treatment under the PBS.

Having another look at the articles, the three investigations ordered were blood tests, ECGs and echocardiograms.

I don't believe there is a specific blood test for TB4, and even if there was there would not be any meaningful level intervals available. If there was, I am almost certain it wouldn't be eligible for bulk billing. It is more likely they were tested for something more common. I have seen one study that say that thymomodulin may increase certain white blood cells - these can be easily tested for and are part of a routine blood test that is often bulk billed, so you could speculate this might have been one of the things they were looking at.

The other investigations would be clinically justified (and eligible for bulk billing) if there were concerns about the potential for heart complications. ECGs are regularly ordered as a routine investigation or as part of a standard physical, which wouldn't cause much concern. For example, if a doctor is considering starting someone on a drug that is known to have cardiac complications as a side effect, then it would be negligent for them not to order an ECG which would establish baseline heart function. However, the mass echocardiograms would be a lot harder to justify to Medicare for a group of young professional athletes given they aren't the most likely demographic to be suffering from heart conditions. I am only aware of one medication (clozapine - a specialised psych drug), that requires an echo as part of the initial treatment work up.

 

[Red mist]

Available on Medicare thymosin beta 4? As a bulk bill?

Just to clarify, the TB4 injection isn't TGA approved, so would not be available as a subsidised treatment under the PBS.

Having another look at the articles, the three investigations ordered were blood tests, ECGs and echocardiograms.

I don't believe there is a specific blood test for TB4, and even if there was there would not be any meaningful level intervals available. If there was, I am almost certain it wouldn't be eligible for bulk billing. It is more likely they were tested for something more common. I have seen one study that say that thymomodulin may increase certain white blood cells - these can be easily tested for and are part of a routine blood test that is often bulk billed, so you could speculate this might have been one of the things they were looking at.

The other investigations would be clinically justified (and eligible for bulk billing) if there were concerns about the potential for heart complications. ECGs are regularly ordered as a routine investigation or as part of a standard physical, which wouldn't cause much concern. For example, if a doctor is considering starting someone on a drug that is known to have cardiac complications as a side effect, then it would be negligent for them not to order an ECG which would establish baseline heart function. However, the mass echocardiograms would be a lot harder to justify to Medicare for a group of young professional athletes given they aren't the most likely demographic to be suffering from heart conditions. I am only aware of one medication (clozapine - a specialised psych drug), that requires an echo as part of the initial treatment work up.

Thankyou LiquidCrow for that.

 

[Red mist]

Sanders re essendon FC? what's your scope!

 

[NikkiNoo]

Neither does EFC as they have taken the same stance re records. If anybody thinks that the players are totally at fault, they are dead wrong. Their club, that they would bleed for has much more interest in smudging the details of their regime.

No Essendon says that Dank has the records and he says that Essendon has records too. His little problem is that his computer is currently sitting in a Vic Police evidence locker as part of a different investigation... ASADA have requested information from there, but that is part of another investigation and the Vic Police haven't gotten around to looking at it yet!

Agree that Essendon is all about hiding what actually went on, but as part of being an AFL player you have to know what was given to you, so they are at fault under their own requirements to play AFL football. I agree that they were duped and pressured by their club and hero worship, but that's no excuse under the NAD scheme. I think they definitely have a case for a lack of Duty of Care against Essendon though.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Just to clarify, the TB4 injection isn't TGA approved, so would not be available as a subsidised treatment under the PBS.

Having another look at the articles, the three investigations ordered were blood tests, ECGs and echocardiograms.

I don't believe there is a specific blood test for TB4, and even if there was there would not be any meaningful level intervals available. If there was, I am almost certain it wouldn't be eligible for bulk billing. It is more likely they were tested for something more common. I have seen one study that say that thymomodulin may increase certain white blood cells - these can be easily tested for and are part of a routine blood test that is often bulk billed, so you could speculate this might have been one of the things they were looking at.

The other investigations would be clinically justified (and eligible for bulk billing) if there were concerns about the potential for heart complications. ECGs are regularly ordered as a routine investigation or as part of a standard physical, which wouldn't cause much concern. For example, if a doctor is considering starting someone on a drug that is known to have cardiac complications as a side effect, then it would be negligent for them not to order an ECG which would establish baseline heart function. However, the mass echocardiograms would be a lot harder to justify to Medicare for a group of young professional athletes given they aren't the most likely demographic to be suffering from heart conditions. I am only aware of one medication (clozapine - a specialised psych drug), that requires an echo as part of the initial treatment work up.

But these were being ordered by a biochemist who hadn't finished his masters degree and who was trying drugs to see what would and wouldn't work on human subjects without their informed consent. Just have a look at the texts with him and Alavi. The chemist was suggesting some odd mixtures of drugs that had been done on a dental patient and then someone who had gotten their shoulder done and lastly suggestions of trying a drug that is used on racehorses in the US. It's just unbelievable that this could and did occur with no restraints on anyone involved.

Dank likes to appear to be the smartest guy in the room is the impression I have of him. Unfortunately he's just a snake oil salesman.

 

[Red mist]

No Essendon says that Dank has the records and he says that Essendon has records too. His little problem is that his computer is currently sitting in a Vic Police evidence locker as part of a different investigation... ASADA have requested information from there, but that is part of another investigation and the Vic Police haven't gotten around to looking at it yet!

Agree that Essendon is all about hiding what actually went on, but as part of being an AFL player you have to know what was given to you, so they are at fault under their own requirements to play AFL football. I agree that they were duped and pressured by their club and hero worship, but that's no excuse under the NAD scheme. I think they definitely have a case for a lack of Duty of Care against Essendon though.

Thanks again for your thaughts. I have no problem with the case against EFC or the players because that is being handled. My problem is with DANK and you have explained that he is part of bigger things. Surely you get this guy and all the pieces slot into place. It would just make it easier. He is a weasel peddling his wares on the the borderline of sports science. And exactly like you say a Snake Oil Salesman.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Thanks again for your thaughts. I have no problem with the case against EFC or the players because that is being handled. My problem is with DANK and you have explained that he is part of bigger things. Surely you get this guy and all the pieces slot into place. It would just make it easier. He is a weasel peddling his wares on the the borderline of sports science. And exactly like you say a Snake Oil Salesman.

The problem for ASADA is that they have asked him to attend interviews and he hasn't shown up. They couldn't force him to attend until the new powers came into place. We don't know if they then tried to get him to attend interviews after the new powers. If he did, he could have sat there are not said a thing. ASADA won't release information. So we have to rely on leaks from other sources to find out what is or isn't happening.

I think this relates to ASADA asking the NRL and AFL to put bans on him for life. My guess is that they probably did request him to attend an interview and he either didn't or did and wouldn't answer, so they just ban him as a result in combination with evidence from others.

He takes people to court or threatens to, instead as his modus operandi. There is one court case still ongoing, which had part of it thrown out. It will be interesting for the other part as to what might eventually come out. It is in relation to the NRL though, from memory.

 

[little graham]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-19/after-the-siren-lions-bite-back

This article does not paint Voss in a very good light.

 

[Sanders]

Sanders re essendon FC? what's your scope!

My view?

If you don't know, if you can't demonstrate what you did with those young men's bodies, then it doesn't matter if you stayed just on the right side of the line.

If you don't know, then it's luck.

That's appalling, the club deserves to be toasted.

Every sports player knows the onus is on them to know, they didn't either. Toast

Hird? A unique self regarding scum bag. **** him hardest

 

[footy4ever]

Hird? A unique self regarding scum bag. **** him hardest

Next hardest - Wantfrees and Ryder

 

[johnnypanther]

I don't think they have any knock-out evidence, I'm very sceptical the players will get anything close to two years (and I kind of hope they don't - I feel for the players)

Needs to be way better systems put in place so it doesn't happen again. Everything needs to be logged and administered with supervision IMO. The fact that Essendon are saying they're missing a lot of the information on what the players took should be grounds enough to tear them a new one.

You don't really believe that they didn't keep detailed records?

 

[Tex200]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/es...supplements-saga/story-fni0fiyv-1227095209763

Lets hope this is true - especially for Wantfrees and Ryder

 

[aneale]

The Saad case really is (IMO) a bit of barometer of how this may go. 18 months for what he did, compared to what was happening at Essendon.

 

[baldandbroke]

So many Power supporters are all of a sudden keen on the Essendon debacle being finished quickly and not being too unfair on the players as it is obvious that the club not the players were the problem - understandable I guess

I know that Port would have factored in the chance of this going bad, but gee it's a massive risk to take on.

 

[aneale]

It makes you wonder how long a contract Ryder got, I don't recall seeing it anywhere (probably not caring enough) But I guess it is not the stock standard 2 year deal given I think there is a better than good chance he will be banned for 2 years.

 

[footy4ever]

It makes you wonder how long a contract Ryder got, I don't recall seeing it anywhere (probably not caring enough) But I guess it is not the stock standard 2 year deal given I think there is a better than good chance he will be banned for 2 years.

2 years?? I can only hope, but this will never happen. I guarantee it will be a watered down off-season-only ban and AFC will have to pay a fine for being in the same city as Ryder and Wantfrees.

 

[Shaxx Attaxx]

The Saad case really is (IMO) a bit of barometer of how this may go. 18 months for what he did, compared to what was happening at Essendon.

Scary. Didn't Saad only take a pre workout?? So he took something that you and me can buy over the counter. Should be a very interesting verdict once it actually happens.