2015 - What needs to be done?

[Us against the rest]

2015 will be interesting for Ken. In 2013 and 2014 he's still been stuck with players he may have wanted to move on. By the end of this years trade / draft period there won't be many players who didn't have a contract finishing in 2013 / 2014 when he arrived left.

It won't be his team, as much as he built it over 4 or 5 years of drafting and development, but it will be the team he's kept rather than running a line through. And as such the excuses for sub-standard (/continually injured) players left that he inherited will largely disappear. 3rd year coaches don't get the 'get out of jail' cards of new coaches at clubs, especially first time senior coaching anywhere.

Agreed. The heat will be on Ken next year to take the next step but like you said, with some players he may not want.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

I was talking to my dad today about some of Port's recruiting options, and we came up with something that may possibly, with a little bit of help from the 'footy gods' and a few other clubs, solve all of our KPP problems.

I'm not sure if I should post this in the Trading Targets Summary thread or here, so I will copy the following post and put in on the other thread as well so a few others can see it. Anyways, here I go:

Apparently there was a rumor going around that Jeremy Cameron, the young AA, KPF for GWS (three abbreviations in 4 words), is thinking about leaving his club in order to move to SA where his family have secured a good job. This move is made more realistic by Cameron's contract being out at the seasons end. Please note: I do NOT have an extremely reliable and none of this may be true, but I have talked with a few of my Crows and Port mates and they have all heard that Cameron is thinking about moving, so I don't think I'm completely off the ball. Anyways, Cameron is a high-quality, young KPF that can easily fill Schulz's shoes, as he will only have a few more years left in him. He is good enough make our best 22 and he will solve our problem for a tall KPF, however; we may have to give up some of our quality players to nab him, with the Crows a likely contender in buying him (even though they don't need him), we may have to give up someone like Hartlett to get him. Hartlett for Cameron - its so tempting, but I just can't let go of hammer, especially after he kicked 4 goals today. Here's where the solution comes in: Greater Western Sydney have shown their interest in Shaun Higgins, a high-class midfielder that goes out of contract at this years end, from the Western Bulldogs. The Bulldogs have also shown some interest in Port Adelaide's own John Butcher, which would solve their problem of having no KPF's or KPD's. We all know Butcher isn't too flash, and I can't see him getting any better, so I think we should trade like this: Butcher goes to Bulldogs with a possible draft pick if they want more. Higgins goes to GWS and Bulldogs exit the trade. Port takes Cameron off of GWS and may have to offer another draft pick or two to help compensate the loss of Cameron from GWS. This way, all 3 clubs get who they want and we get rid off Butcher. We should easily be able to grab Lycett off of West Coast so he can replace Renouf on our list as a backup ruckmen, who can also play forward. This three-club trade, along with the Lycett deal, could potentially set us up as the best traders of the 2014 trade period.

It's a little far-fetched, and is probably unlikely to happen, but hey, anything is possible

Um, Jeremy Cameron is worth more than any other player in the comp. Period. You think you could get him by losing John Butcher and maybe a first round draft pick? If GWS said to Port we will take Hartlett and your first rounder for Cameron, Port officials would most likely have to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st, and then sign the trade quickly enough so the people at GWS don't sober up in time.

Anyway, came in here to add a couple of thoughts. You guys are clearly on the right track. I don't think you need to worry about getting another KPF at the moment, because you wouldn't be able to get the quality needed to help you immediately anyway. Im thinking that Wingard has some kind of injury, as he is playing so little time in the midfield that it seems sus. You are a young team, and with natural improvement, you will be a very good side next year, no need to change things up too dramatcially. I definitely think that with Trengrove back in, the defence will be steadied and Westhoff will go back to more of a roaming role rather than ruck, and I like the idea of Hartlett playing off half back with Broadbent. Don't despair you're tired, today was more about you guys feeling the strain of a long season, rather than anything too much we brought to the table.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Ken got a 4 year deal. After we were 10-1 or 10-2 KT was asked about a contract extension. KT rightly said they will look at it at the end of the year. The way we are going it will be a 30 second meeting - KT will say no need to do anything for 12 months.

 

[Us against the rest]

Ken got a 4 year deal. After we were 10-1 or 10-2 KT was asked about a contract extension. KT rightly said they will look at it at the end of the year. The way we are going it will be a 30 second meeting - KT will say no need to do anything for 12 months.

I just get the feeling, there is more wrong at our club atm than meets the eye but nothing much gets out with KT in charge. Bradbert is in strange form, i said a few weeks ago he looks like a frustrated player, i felt this started in the showdown.

 

[questionable]

[...] You guys are clearly on the right track. I don't think you need to worry about getting another KPF at the moment, because you wouldn't be able to get the quality needed to help you immediately anyway. [...]

we don't need quality, we just need a player capable of playing KPF at AFL level - for structural reasons. the opinion of the coaching staff is clearly that none of butcher, shaw or harvey are currently ready or good enough for AFL football. meanwhile, the lack of an extra marking target is ruining our forward line.

we're all hoping that one or more of those players will take that extra step soon, but it's far from guaranteed; another option is needed. have you forgotten that recruiting leigh brown won your side a flag?

 

[jack_black16]

I just want to see players with good skills on game day, just not at Alberton kicking around corners and into rubbish bins.

But kicking around corners and into rubbish bins is the cornerstone of a good football program.

 

[tamba]

But kicking around corners and into rubbish bins is the cornerstone of a good football program.

Watching the game last night, some just , well didn't seem to have their heart in it at times. It was let someone else do it or man up. Fatigue maybe ???

Ken may just get the side get he is after / close to. Cut some dead wood or those who seem to be running on "I just don't won't to be here , let's see what comes for next season"

----- because from my view (I only get to see the games on replay , they ONLY show the Ruddy Lions & Gold Coast live up here) the last lost games were not good enough for a side with Semi-finals aspirations. At this rate we will go out in the Elimination Round.

Where was the to die for attitude ?

 

[shewho]

1. Find another KPF- the most likely candidates are Shaw, Harvey and Butcher. History shows it is very difficult to trade for a good KPF (Schulz was a steal). Goldsack is a free agent worth looking at. Cameron is utterly unrealistic and pure fantasy.

2. Ruck- we need 4 genuine rucks on the list. Lobbe and Redden need someone ready to go and a developing ruck option as support. I also think we need new ruck tactics. Lobbe is regularly hitting the ball to advantage- for the opposition. Why hit the ball backwards in the centre square? Unless you hit it right down Boak's throat (5% likelihood), you allow their midfielders to push the ball into their forward 50 with momentum (50% likelihood).

3. A Defensive General- someone to do a similar job to Hodge, Goddard, Hurn, etc. the player needs to be an elite kick, have elite vision but jot necessarily elite pace. Most importantly, needs to be a natural born leader.

4. Patience- we have most of the pieces we need for a premiership team in 2-3 years. In retrospect, 2014 was a false dawn. The squad is too young to be a real premiership contender, even if it looked like that for 3 months. Wines, Wingard, Hartlett- some of these boys will be pretty impressive footballers when they grow up.

 

[chiwigi]

I was talking to my dad today about some of Port's recruiting options, and we came up with something that may possibly, with a little bit of help from the 'footy gods' and a few other clubs, solve all of our KPP problems.

I'm not sure if I should post this in the Trading Targets Summary thread or here, so I will copy the following post and put in on the other thread as well so a few others can see it. Anyways, here I go:

Apparently there was a rumor going around that Jeremy Cameron, the young AA, KPF for GWS (three abbreviations in 4 words), is thinking about leaving his club in order to move to SA where his family have secured a good job. This move is made more realistic by Cameron's contract being out at the seasons end. Please note: I do NOT have an extremely reliable and none of this may be true, but I have talked with a few of my Crows and Port mates and they have all heard that Cameron is thinking about moving, so I don't think I'm completely off the ball. Anyways, Cameron is a high-quality, young KPF that can easily fill Schulz's shoes, as he will only have a few more years left in him. He is good enough make our best 22 and he will solve our problem for a tall KPF, however; we may have to give up some of our quality players to nab him, with the Crows a likely contender in buying him (even though they don't need him), we may have to give up someone like Hartlett to get him. Hartlett for Cameron - its so tempting, but I just can't let go of hammer, especially after he kicked 4 goals today. Here's where the solution comes in: Greater Western Sydney have shown their interest in Shaun Higgins, a high-class midfielder that goes out of contract at this years end, from the Western Bulldogs. The Bulldogs have also shown some interest in Port Adelaide's own John Butcher, which would solve their problem of having no KPF's or KPD's. We all know Butcher isn't too flash, and I can't see him getting any better, so I think we should trade like this: Butcher goes to Bulldogs with a possible draft pick if they want more. Higgins goes to GWS and Bulldogs exit the trade. Port takes Cameron off of GWS and may have to offer another draft pick or two to help compensate the loss of Cameron from GWS. This way, all 3 clubs get who they want and we get rid off Butcher. We should easily be able to grab Lycett off of West Coast so he can replace Renouf on our list as a backup ruckmen, who can also play forward. This three-club trade, along with the Lycett deal, could potentially set us up as the best traders of the 2014 trade period.

It's a little far-fetched, and is probably unlikely to happen, but hey, anything is possible

So Butcher for Cameron!?? LOL!

 

[rogerjames]

The defensive general is something we have overlooked in importance given all the other obvious weaknesses in our side. We certainly don't have one that comes near the top sides options. Hartlett is a player that could play the role but no sure who else. Broadbent was good yesterday but he's hasn't played this role well enough this year. Was much better last year

 

[shewho]

The defensive general is something we have overlooked in importance given all the other obvious weaknesses in our side. We certainly don't have one that comes near the top sides options. Hartlett is a player that could play the role but no sure who else. Broadbent was good yesterday but he's hasn't played this role well enough this year. Was much better last year

Sam Butler is a possibility. An SA boy, a free agent, on his way out at West Coast because they need to rebuild and doesn't get to play that position because they have Waters and Hurn. Has been very injury prone but a premiership player and has enough experience. Hurn and Waters are better prospects but probably unrealistic. Butler would be much cheaper.

 

[ash_78]

Posted some of this in the Ins/Outs thread, but it's relevant to this thread also.

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I do hope Ken is really actually addressing certain issues. It was immediately apparent to me after the first Melbourne game in Alice that a good coach (Roos) had worked us out, and he created the template that every other coach subsequently followed to knock us off. Whether they would've done it without Roos showing how it was done or not is neither here nor there, but he certainly did it first.

There's no rocket science involved, the template is fairly simple:

- crowd our midfielders' and half backs' space, as we use chains of handballs to extract and work our way out. Do this by setting up defensively at stoppages, and when we gain possession, congest the corridor.
=> we've gone from being clean and precise, to rarely getting past the 2nd or 3rd player in the chain before being tackled or turning over with poor execution, which is simply a result of opposition pressure

- play a minimum of one, but often TWO men behind the ball to block leads from forwards
=> as we've all observed, we have no other avenue to goal (aside from manic runs through the middle when we get the ball over the back) than Schulz, so if you block his leads you're halfway there. Our F50 delivery has been poor anyway, so the extra man/men will also easily outnumber and mop up any kicks to small forwards.

- break even / win the stoppages
=> this isn't something you can just "do" but if it happens, you go a long way towards beating us
=> we constantly let players waltz through from stoppages. The only conclusion I've come to is that our stoppage set ups are far too attack-minded. This flies in the face of Ken's key mantra of defence-first football. I am starting to suspect that I initially misunderstood what he meant by that phrase - I hope I'm wrong, but "defence first" in Ken's book might just mean playing 1 or 2 loose men in defence.

To rectify this, IMO we need the following things to improve over the pre-season:

• At stoppages, work on better structures that creates more frontal pressure on the opposition
• A 2nd AFL-standard ruckmen to assist with our taps and energy around stoppages
  
• Better ball use in chains of handballs to work through the congestion
• Sticking tackles
• Decent ball use off the wings and half back. Yes, our bad delivery into the F50 is partly due to a lack of structure, but we are brainless in the way we deliver skied balls to 4-on-2s, especially when our target is not a tall.
• A 2nd AFL-standard tall forward

 

[Andre]

Posted some of this in the Ins/Outs thread, but it's relevant to this thread also.

Well said. And extra props for the signature.

 

[QPower]

The problem is simple - we are being out worked. Recruiting, structures and tactics are all irrelevant when players are lazy. There is no redeeming sub-plot to the story. The same results will come in 2015 too if the players continue to be out worked.

 

[ash_78]

The problem is simple - we are being out worked. Recruiting, structures and tactics are all irrelevant when players are lazy. There is no redeeming sub-plot to the story. The same results will come in 2015 too if the players continue to be out worked.

Agree somewhat, but at the same time poor structures and players second guessing themselves can give the misleading impression that you are being outworked.

And if you are genuinely being outworked - why? Our players are neither lazy nor unfit, so what is it... Are they tired? Are their energy levels down because they're demotivated because the gameplan isn't coming off?

If you've played enough sport yourself, you'll know that your energy levels fluctuate during a game based on game context. You don't suddenly get flat for no reason.

 

[QPower]

Agree somewhat, but at the same time poor structures and players second guessing themselves can give the misleading impression that you are being outworked.

And if you are genuinely being outworked - why? Our players are neither lazy nor unfit, so what is it... Are they tired? Are their energy levels down because they're demotivated because the gameplan isn't coming off?

If you've played enough sport yourself, you'll know that your energy levels fluctuate during a game based on game context. You don't suddenly get flat for no reason.

There are clear signs players got ahead of theselves. Hartlett and Gray have more or less said as much in recent pressers. The drop off in work rate follows believing your press.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I have defended kane alot he needs to be put out for pasture....

One thing primus did well was roll the dice on untried youngsters...we were much better for it and attribute to some of our youngsters advanced development....

Just try shaw or a clurey ready or not...

making tough calls dropping a kane monfries or an ebert should be enforced....

 

[ash_78]

There are clear signs players got ahead of theselves. Hartlett and Gray have more or less said as much in recent pressers. The drop off in work rate follows believing your press.

I think sometimes players say superficial things publicly that hide the real issues. There might be elements of truth, but I don't buy it as THE issue.

Back in 2011 the players drew the line in the sand because they supposedly weren't working hard enough & weren't executing the game plan correctly. It was a smokescreen for the real problems.

 

[QPower]

I think sometimes players say superficial things publicly that hide the real issues. There might be elements of truth, but I don't buy it as THE issue.

Back in 2011 the players drew the line in the sand because they supposedly weren't working hard enough & weren't executing the game plan correctly. It was a smokescreen for the real problems.

And the real problems are?

 

[ash_78]

And the real problems are?

Have stated about 5 posts up what I think they are.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Is it worthwhile looking for an external source of advice? We are certainly missing Richardson and, although we have Walsh, perhaps another voice might be useful.

The person that comes to mind is Rick Charlesworth. Did spend time at Freo as a consultant and is arguably the most successful professional coach anywhere in any sport. His key emphasis is work rate and defensive work. He is creative and reformed hockey in Australia. He has a track record of getting the best out of people and for giving people a chance to prove their worth. All handy attributes for us at the moment.

 

[Us against the rest]

I will say it again, there is more going on here than meets the eye. Bradbert is not a lazy player but if you go back to the Showdown when he let loose with a coat hanger, something before that game has changed. Ebert is playing like a frustrated footballer, like he has been told he is not physical enough. Westhoff probably had his best game on Sunday over the the last 6 weeks, missing goals dropping marks. This is very similar to the Primus days when players were playing for their footy careers. Q. Have the boys been put on notice, they are not enjoying their footy like 2013.

 

[Port 2004]

Um, Jeremy Cameron is worth more than any other player in the comp. Period. You think you could get him by losing John Butcher and maybe a first round draft pick? If GWS said to Port we will take Hartlett and your first rounder for Cameron, Port officials would most likely have to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st, and then sign the trade quickly enough so the people at GWS don't sober up in time.

Anyway, came in here to add a couple of thoughts. You guys are clearly on the right track. I don't think you need to worry about getting another KPF at the moment, because you wouldn't be able to get the quality needed to help you immediately anyway. Im thinking that Wingard has some kind of injury, as he is playing so little time in the midfield that it seems sus. You are a young team, and with natural improvement, you will be a very good side next year, no need to change things up too dramatcially. I definitely think that with Trengrove back in, the defence will be steadied and Westhoff will go back to more of a roaming role rather than ruck, and I like the idea of Hartlett playing off half back with Broadbent. Don't despair you're tired, today was more about you guys feeling the strain of a long season, rather than anything too much we brought to the table.

Great post. Good luck for the remainder.

 

[Us against the rest]

Stories have it that Westy has been asking Ken for another tall to help out, Jay has said just that on radio. The inclusion of Mason Shaw could help up forward, take some pressure of Jay and Westy and pinch hit in Ruck to help Lobbe, who has also been down on form, his taps are going straight to the opposition. So that is three big men struggling for form, no coincidence this has all begun since the Showdown when Trengove got injured, no Trengove to help Lobbes and Westy can't play his usual role.

 

[crafty_bernardo]

Didn't get to watch the game, is it that bad? If i recall correctly we looked absolutely shot, in the last few rounds last year. Many were saying we were doomed heading into the finals. Didn't turn out too bad did it.