Opinion 2017 Draft Discussion - Pick 3 - Poll added

[1981]

Brayshaw seems to have really short arms. How does he go leaving car parks?

 

[Lace_Out]

About as well as he goes wiping his bum.

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[bmaurizio]

3 & 10 pairings I would like:

Rayner & Clark
Rayner & O'Brien
Rayner & Constable
Rayner & Fogarty
Rayner & Brayshaw
Rayner & Bonar
Cerra & Clark
Cerra & Fogarty
Cerra & Bonar
Cerra & Brayshaw
Cerra & O'Brien
Dow & Clark
Dow & Fogarty
Dow & Brayshaw
Dow & Bonar
Dow & O'Brien

The big thing to note is, I don't like Constable with another predominately inside mid.

Any of the combinations excepting the third would be absolutley fantastic and great additions to the team.
I too am not a fan of Constable.

 

[djw1952]

I'm saying it happens to him in either role. He blows up.

Why would you spend pick 3 on a half forward?

SOS just might..........

 

[djw1952]

3 & 10 pairings I would like:

Rayner & Clark
Rayner & O'Brien
Rayner & Constable
Rayner & Fogarty
Rayner & Brayshaw
Rayner & Bonar
Cerra & Clark
Cerra & Fogarty
Cerra & Bonar
Cerra & Brayshaw
Cerra & O'Brien
Dow & Clark
Dow & Fogarty
Dow & Brayshaw
Dow & Bonar
Dow & O'Brien

The big thing to note is, I don't like Constable with another predominately inside mid.

That is why I do not like the Rayner and Fogarty combo, because they are both likely to spend most of their time in the forward line and at least one of the two picks should be a pure mid imo. I think your first two are the best match for Rayner, while Cerra would be ok with any combo and Dow would be complemented by a strong forward pick like Fogarty or Bonar.......although nobody would dislike Clark helping out in the middle as well I would guess......Constable is obviously talented, but with Cripps and Kennedy both not the fastest, we would not need another chunky slower moving guy in the middle.

 

[Arr0w]

Lets not exagerate. Lets face it most afl players are not the elite natural athletes that we often portray them to be. They get there through the support and guidance of their club and due to the motivation of contract etc. Most would not win a 100m at schoolboy level, nor would they be running out the 10k . They are mostly ok athletes that happen to have a gift in the area of football ability.
I dont buy this Raynor is a lost cause in terms of endurance BS. He is physically able to reach the necessary levels if he wants to as are probably 95% of players drafted. Sure there will be the freak natural athletes- but they are not the norm or the benchmark

All I know is that modern AFL demands multiple avenues to goal and the influence of the KPF/specialist forward is declining and the emergence of the midfielder who has a proclivity toward kicking goals is becoming ever stronger. If there is anything that cant be trained, it is natural goal sense and conversion. Given that we know Raynor has this latter ability, I say that this puts him in front of most other midfielders. His endurance will come and will only serve to make him even more damaging. I have great faith in SOS and PB to assess a player and do the right thing. If that is Raynor -so be it. If not - bullet dodged

Interesting how you cherry pick a post, was actually responding to a general post regarding endurance.

2017 Draft Discussion - Pick 3 - Poll added

Never once have I said Rayner is a lost cause, would be more than happy if he was selected at 3, I just have others ahead of him, based on many factors, one also being endurance, which surely you would concede is important in the modern game. If you honesty think, a medium forward should be drafted, based on his prowess as a forward only, with the hope of playing more than a handful of minutes through the middle, you may as well remain with the old Carlton in selecting a Menzel type (Not comparing Rayner to Menzel, as footballers).

If Rayner has shown he is capable or willing to work on his endurance, to at least be at an AFL average level, SOS & PB would be comfortable in selecting him, if not, as you say, we have dodged a bullet

 

[Arr0w]

Still don't get this "best combination" concept that people are debating. The draft is not a game of school yard footy where 2 captains are nominated then they select who they think is the best player on that day, such a short term concept.

I could be wrong, but I think SOS would have these kids listed from 1 - 90ish, in ratings(based on the player they will become, rather than the immediate impact to the side), then just cross them off as they are selected (Macreadie is a prime example)

 

[HARKER]

Still don't get this "best combination" concept that people are debating. The draft is not a game of school yard footy where 2 captains are nominated then they select who they think is the best player on that day, such a short term concept.
I could be wrong, but I think SOS would have these kids listed from 1 - 90ish, in ratings(based on the player they will become, rather than the immediate impact to the side), then just cross them off as they are selected (Macreadie is a prime example)

I think we'd all be disappointed should the shallowest part of our squad, not be bolstered and no one more-so than Bolton.
As things currently stand we're in a net loss position, having lost Gibbs for Kennedy and even with natural improvement from SPS, Fisher and co., we're still going to have one of the shallowest midfields in the league. That won't serve the main squad, nor the development of players in the VFL, well. We know the story thereafter.

Macreadie? Who knows? SOS may have had him at #28 and felt it too good a prospect to pass. Maybe Bolton wanted a mid; Jack Graham maybe?
Macreadie spent the bulk of the year in the 2's, whilst Jack Graham may have been playing seniors for the whole of the year. We'll never know for sure.

 

[Arr0w]

3 & 10 pairings I would like:

Rayner & Clark
Rayner & O'Brien
Rayner & Constable
Rayner & Fogarty
Rayner & Brayshaw
Rayner & Bonar
Cerra & Clark
Cerra & Fogarty
Cerra & Bonar
Cerra & Brayshaw
Cerra & O'Brien
Dow & Clark
Dow & Fogarty
Dow & Brayshaw
Dow & Bonar
Dow & O'Brien

The big thing to note is, I don't like Constable with another predominately inside mid.

Any of the combinations excepting the third would be absolutley fantastic and great additions to the team.
I too am not a fan of Constable.

That is why I do not like the Rayner and Fogarty combo, because they are both likely to spend most of their time in the forward line and at least one of the two picks should be a pure mid imo. I think your first two are the best match for Rayner, while Cerra would be ok with any combo and Dow would be complemented by a strong forward pick like Fogarty or Bonar.......although nobody would dislike Clark helping out in the middle as well I would guess......Constable is obviously talented, but with Cripps and Kennedy both not the fastest, we would not need another chunky slower moving guy in the middle.

I too think speed is king, in the modern game, but wouldn't pass on a guy based on being slower than others if he is rated a better player.

Seems like many have put a line through the likes of a Constable & Higgns, perhaps Cerra should be discarded too

Someone should also make contact with the Swans to console them, for their poor record over the last decade, having a slower midfield

Carry on

 

[Arr0w]

I think we'd all be disappointed should the shallowest part of our squad, not be bolstered and no one more-so than Bolton.
As things currently stand we're in a net loss position, having lost Gibbs for Kennedy and even with natural improvement from SPS, Fisher and co., we're still going to have one of the shallowest midfields in the league. That won't serve the main squad, nor the development of players in the VFL, well. We know the story thereafter.

Macreadie? Who knows? SOS may have had him at #28 and felt it too good a prospect to pass. Maybe Bolton wanted a mid; Jack Graham maybe?
Macreadie spent the bulk of the year in the 2's, whilst Jack Graham may have been playing seniors for the whole of the year. We'll never know for sure.

I don't see it as a net loss, unless you are basing that on a short term view. SOS will add more midfielders and together with the kids on our list, the future will be amazing

I rate Graham, but he was always going to have an immediate impact given his size and due to the Tigers list currently being stronger than ours

 

[kingKerna4]

3.Rayner 10.constable 31.Worpel

 

[StandByyourMan]

You would have thought we walk away from pick 3 and 10 with at least one ready to go midfielder .. surely?

 

[AB_Blue]

Exactly what we need. A classy mid who can do it all, is extremely consistent and can be relied upon.

Sounds like a Gibbs clone [emoji6]

 

[StandByyourMan]

About as well as he goes wiping his bum.

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Underrated in and under

 

[HARKER]

I don't see it as a net loss, unless you are basing that on a short term view. SOS will add more midfielders and together with the kids on our list, the future will be amazing

I rate Graham, but he was always going to have an immediate impact given his size and due to the Tigers list currently being stronger than ours

Yes, an immediate net loss in terms of midfield quality, but what could be/should be/ will be a huge gain long term.

I just brought up the name Graham for the sake of the argument. Not going to suggest he'll be a great player and not even one that could be better than Macreadie, but again, opportunity weighs in heavily to development. Generally speaking, the more time you have to play senior football, somehow the better one becomes.

 

[Coona Blues]

You would have thought we walk away from pick 3 and 10 with at least one ready to go midfielder .. surely?

I may be suffering from analysis paralysis, but I reckon we need 3, 10 and 30 to all be genuine midfield types.
Putting our best 22 and depth 22 together shows we are still 4 midfielders short.

Rayner has me perplexed. If highlight reels dictated selections, he is a no brainer best available. However the game has
changed. With team defence such an issue in the modern game, there is no guarantee he would even have the tank to
play as a permanent forward. More informed, and probably wiser heads than me will make decisions and I will support
them. Happy for Rayner to go #1 to leave us with a genuine midfielder, which is our greatest need.

#3 Balanced mid with good distribution skills.

Cerra has an average reel from the Championships, but some of his TAC clips are breathtaking. Adept left and right
foot and hand, hard at it and good overhead. We are linked and really hope he gets to Blues.

#10 Elite distributer and two way runner

Has to be O'Brien (or possibly Clark...less athletic though)
Disclaimer: If Fogarty slides, has enough X factor and elite disposal to
alter the dynamic.

#30 Ideally Mid/Forward type, (hoping for a slider) or a SOS/Brodie "hidden gem"
utility. Would love Tim Kelly to get here, but unlikely. Names like L.Fogarty, Ross,
Starcevich, Ling, Petrucelle, Walker....... someone has to slide​

 

[Funk]

Lets not exagerate. Lets face it most afl players are not the elite natural athletes that we often portray them to be. They get there through the support and guidance of their club and due to the motivation of contract etc. Most would not win a 100m at schoolboy level, nor would they be running out the 10k . They are mostly ok athletes that happen to have a gift in the area of football ability.
I dont buy this Raynor is a lost cause in terms of endurance BS. He is physically able to reach the necessary levels if he wants to as are probably 95% of players drafted. Sure there will be the freak natural athletes- but they are not the norm or the benchmark
All I know is that modern AFL demands multiple avenues to goal and the influence of the KPF/specialist forward is declining and the emergence of the midfielder who has a proclivity toward kicking goals is becoming ever stronger. If there is anything that cant be trained, it is natural goal sense and conversion. Given that we know Raynor has this latter ability, I say that this puts him in front of most other midfielders. His endurance will come and will only serve to make him even more damaging. I have great faith in SOS and PB to assess a player and do the right thing. If that is Raynor -so be it. If not - bullet dodged

Agree.

I'd love to see a super mobile and talented forward line with multiple guys that can beat defenders in the air and on the ground.

Harry, Charlie, Rayner, Fogarty, Picketty, LeBois - what a nightmare for defenders.

Then we've just got to work out how to get the ball down there......

 

[HARKER]

That's a good way of doing it Coona.
Let's ask what we think Bolton would want and see if he gets it.

You say:

#3 Balanced mid with good distribution skills.
#10 Elite distributer and two way runner
#30 Ideally Mid/Forward type, (hoping for a slider) or a SOS/Brodie "hidden gem"

Sounds perfect to me and should Bolton get what he wants, he then has to make good of having his wishes granted.
Not that he wouldn't should they not be, but you know.....human nature and all.

 

[therubbernub]

You're clearly a huge fan of Rayner, others have concerns about him. Don't take it personally

I am not really a "huge fan" . In fact this years bunch to me is a bit underwhelming. But I cant for the life of me understand how a good player has been so widely dismissed due to a flawed test such as the beep and without further information -because the said player missed the latest combine.

 

[therubbernub]

Interesting how you cherry pick a post, was actually responding to a general post regarding endurance.

2017 Draft Discussion - Pick 3 - Poll added

Never once have I said Rayner is a lost cause, would be more than happy if he was selected at 3, I just have others ahead of him, based on many factors, one also being endurance, which surely you would concede is important in the modern game. If you honesty think, a medium forward should be drafted, based on his prowess as a forward only, with the hope of playing more than a handful of minutes through the middle, you may as well remain with the old Carlton in selecting a Menzel type (Not comparing Rayner to Menzel, as footballers).

If Rayner has shown he is capable or willing to work on his endurance, to at least be at an AFL average level, SOS & PB would be comfortable in selecting him, if not, as you say, we have dodged a bullet

Sorry Arrow I wasnt trying to cheery pick your post. I responded to your "Some do struggle to build endurance, like trying to convert a 100M sprinter into a 10,000 KM runner" which was in the middle of a Rayner discussion. My point is that no AFL player needs to be naturally elite athletically to develop the required athleticism for AFL- that includes Rayner

 

[GapInIkonPark]

I think we'd all be disappointed should the shallowest part of our squad, not be bolstered and no one more-so than Bolton.
As things currently stand we're in a net loss position, having lost Gibbs for Kennedy and even with natural improvement from SPS, Fisher and co., we're still going to have one of the shallowest midfields in the league. That won't serve the main squad, nor the development of players in the VFL, well. We know the story thereafter.

Macreadie? Who knows? SOS may have had him at #28 and felt it too good a prospect to pass. Maybe Bolton wanted a mid; Jack Graham maybe?
Macreadie spent the bulk of the year in the 2's, whilst Jack Graham may have been playing seniors for the whole of the year. We'll never know for sure.

We are improving the bottom part of the list at the same time as making far better choices with our top draft Picks than we used to.

And that is the main game with one more year to go IMO (‘66 game rebuild’).

Yes Gibbs was a loss but we have brought in Kennedy and Lang (Kennedy more directly from Gibbs trade with on-trade with Dogs). I think both Kennedy and Lang are Best 22 players and will have long careers at Carlton. We also get Pick #10 and upgraded #40 to #30, and have another second round pick next year.

Tuohy was a loss but was the pawn that netted us Marchbank and Pickett which I consider is a win for us.

And SOS has taken Mullet who may be the best of the DFAs this year ...

But no one should lose sleep over taking kids with Picks #72, #95 and #96 in place of any of ... Smedts, Palmer, Gorringe, Jaksch, Boekhorst, Buckley, Armfield, Sumner and White.

 

[Arr0w]

Sorry Arrow I wasnt trying to cheery pick your post. I responded to your "Some do struggle to build endurance, like trying to convert a 100M sprinter into a 10,000 KM runner" which was in the middle of a Rayner discussion. My point is that no AFL player needs to be naturally elite athletically to develop the required athleticism for AFL- that includes Rayner

You and I both know that some players struggle to build endurance at the next level, that is why you have guys like Fasolo vs Gray, both powerful over a short distance, only one that has improved his tank, to play multiple positions. That is why I believe the analogy above applies

 

[therubbernub]

You and I both know that some players struggle to build endurance at the next level, that is why you have guys like Fasolo vs Gray, both powerful over a short distance, only one that has improved his tank, to play multiple positions. That is why I believe the analogy above applies

Of course some of those players exist but they are the exception not the rule around the 5th percentile IMO. And I dont see any research linking power players with that percentile necessarily. Why is it being brought up constantly in relation to Rayner- because of the beep test no doubt. Your analogy of Fasolo v Gray just reinforces my point that it is impossible to predict the development of a player just based on body type

 

[F_therest]

Of course some of those players exist but they are the exception not the rule around the 5th percentile IMO. And I dont see any research linking power players with that percentile necessarily. Why is it being brought up constantly in relation to Rayner- because of the beep test no doubt. Your analogy of Fasolo v Gray just reinforces my point that it is impossible to predict the development of a player just based on body type

I dont have any stats but i'd say the vast majority of players drafted as flankers/forwards/defenders etc who are described as being able to potentially move into the midfield when the build their tank, don't end up becoming AFL midfielders.

Petracca and Billings are two recent, high draft picks i can think of that fit this mould. Both are still mainly half forwards who pinch hit in the midfield.
Even Robbie Gray doesn't have the tank to play midfield full time.

 

[gandaal]

I dont have any stats but i'd say the vast majority of players drafted as flankers/forwards/defenders etc who are described as being able to potentially move into the midfield when the build their tank, don't end up becoming AFL midfielders.

Petracca and Billings are two recent, high draft picks i can think of that fit this mould. Both are still mainly half forwards who pinch hit in the midfield.
Even Robbie Gray doesn't have the tank to play midfield full time.

There's not many Fyfe and Rockcliffs