2017 Draft thread

[Eons]

Brayshaw is - dare I say - vanilla.

Berry is pretty vanilla too but a bloody good footballer.

 

[Forward We Go]

The problem is that the AFL brings players in via a restricted system called the National Draft. As with all drafts, it's intended to be an equalisation measure such that the worst on-field clubs get the first dibs on the best on-field talent. When flogs can manipulate it in a way to ensure they get to go where they want, it defeats the point of having a draft.

He knew the rules around the National Draft when he signed up for it. As with any player if they had a preference to stay home or move to a particular place they could have skipped the draft, gone to uni and/or gotten a job in that location.

I respect your opinion as we all should respect others opinions but, a couple of things need to be highlighted:
1) The kid hasn't said he wont play for Freo if drafted to them.
2) Calling a 17 year old teenager a flog for simply wanting to go to his favourite club in unacceptable.
3) Freo, for at least 12 months, has had the chance to talk to this kid while being closer to him than most other clubs in the comp, and haven't been able to sway his love for Collingwood. That tells me he loves The Magpies. If you remember back to Luke Power when he was drafted in 1997, he & his family also were very upset when Luke came to Brisbane. History tells us he played 282 games for us, played in 3 winning premierships & all Australian honors. After his first 2 years at Brisbane, NOBODY had a chance to move Luke back to Melbourne because Brisbane had provided Luke a pathway that Luke wanted to follow. If Freo draft this kid, that is their challenge as well & will have 2 years to do it.
4) No matter how hard the AFL try, they will never create the perfect equalisation cocktail on their own just by tweaking the draft accordingly. Clubs also need to lift their game & provide a pathway that this kid wants to be at otherwise he will leave one way or another. From a financial point, probably better to happen now rather than 2 years of significant investment by the club.

 

[SizeMatters]

Berry is pretty vanilla too but a bloody good footballer.

no way. a 192cm midfielder with elite vision, hands, side step and some pace? Also has a sniper shot at goal.

 

[jackess]

Time to shut down this website I'm afraid.

Make it happen Chief

 

[M Malice]

Time to shut down this website I'm afraid.

Make it happen Chief

Now that was a vanilla post jack.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Don't see anything wrong with this 17 year old young fella outwardly saying he would prefer to go back to where he was born & play for Collingwood. We all forget to understand that these potential AFL stars are all kids. Calling him out saying That's just shit by Naughton for me is out of order and then going a step further and calling him a flog is pretty low. Thousands of kids dream of playing AFL for their favourite club of choice from a young age, so why wouldn't any kid want to realise his dreams? The challenge for Freo is to change his mind by showing him a pathway via the Dockers that he could consider exciting enough to want to be there. Same as any other club in the AFL. The kid is entitled to an opinion about his own life without copping your above abuse.

I'm comfortable with it.

 

[dlanod]

I respect your opinion as we all should respect others opinions but, a couple of things need to be highlighted:
1) The kid hasn't said he wont play for Freo if drafted to them.
2) Calling a 17 year old teenager a flog for simply wanting to go to his favourite club in unacceptable.
3) Freo, for at least 12 months, has had the chance to talk to this kid while being closer to him than most other clubs in the comp, and haven't been able to sway his love for Collingwood. That tells me he loves The Magpies. If you remember back to Luke Power when he was drafted in 1997, he & his family also were very upset when Luke came to Brisbane. History tells us he played 282 games for us, played in 3 winning premierships & all Australian honors. After his first 2 years at Brisbane, NOBODY had a chance to move Luke back to Melbourne because Brisbane had provided Luke a pathway that Luke wanted to follow. If Freo draft this kid, that is their challenge as well & will have 2 years to do it.
4) No matter how hard the AFL try, they will never create the perfect equalisation cocktail on their own just by tweaking the draft accordingly. Clubs also need to lift their game & provide a pathway that this kid wants to be at otherwise he will leave one way or another. From a financial point, probably better to happen now rather than 2 years of significant investment by the club.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

3) I don't think Power is a good example. The AFL world was very different back then, with many fewer trades and players demanding out and players also more willing to serve more of an apprenticeship. Times have obviously changed, as we've seen with player after player demanding trades home.

4) Because it can't be perfect they shouldn't try and make it better? Maybe we should just remove it if there's no intention to fix something that is obviously broken - I'm starting to lean towards that simply because at least there'll be honesty in the dealings. Many in the AFL cosmos view the rugby league model as broken but I'm starting to think it's the only workable model.

I agree that clubs should be aiming to make their club an environment that players want to stay it. That's not controversial - I don't think I'd be crazy to say that every single club is aiming to do that. Most are successful to some degree.

However we're seeing situations where many players are going into the draft with a pre-determined view and never entertaining the idea that they would intend to stay at an interstate club. With comments like this it's likely Naughton is just another example.

Funnily enough it's not an general issue. First round picks are massively over-represented in these desires to play in particular states and/or leaving the draftee's club. Those are the ones that are supposed to be equalising the competition as well...

 

[jackess]

I still like the idea of reducing the number of victorian clubs. Make it harder for them to get home. Start with Collingwood.

 

[a mayes ing]

Feel like it is really disadvantaged. If Vic clubs can say " we will give you more money than Brisbane AND you will get a tonne more by doing off field visits/commercials etc"

Feel like if the AFL wants to be equal then they shouldn't get payed doing off field stuff as we can't compete with that. A player should be getting money only in the salary cap

 

[jackess]

Hopefully they raise the draft age as well. Allows the kids to be more mature.

Make the draft age 19 or 20 with a 3 year initial contract for first round picks. Then they'll be at least 22 and probably more settled. Less worried about playing gold with their school mates.

 

[M Malice]

Feel like it is really disadvantaged. If Vic clubs can say " we will give you more money than Brisbane AND you will get a tonne more by doing off field visits/commercials etc"

Feel like if the AFL wants to be equal then they shouldn't get payed doing off field stuff as we can't compete with that. A player should be getting money only in the salary cap

Not feasible unfortunately, would be a restraint of trade, the only thing they could do would be to include those sort of earnings in the salary cap. Would never happen though.

IIRC the rule is that a club can't organize 3rd party deals but it would be extremely naive to believe that club hierarchy wouldn't be giving a nod and a wink to business contacts and prospective players re employment opportunity possibilities.

Almost seems like we need a percentage of dollars on top of the standard salary cap to help with retention. Nah that would never happen.

 

[Forward We Go]

Feel like it is really disadvantaged. If Vic clubs can say " we will give you more money than Brisbane AND you will get a tonne more by doing off field visits/commercials etc"

Feel like if the AFL wants to be equal then they shouldn't get payed doing off field stuff as we can't compete with that. A player should be getting money only in the salary cap

I consider this to be a bigger issue than the one about draftee's saying where they would prefer to go before the draft. Once a player is drafted, the club has 2 years to make this player become an intergral part of the team and who wants to be part of it. There is no doubt we dropped the ball in player welfare for some time but I feel that issue has now been addressed. Lack of potential earnings depending on where they are drafted is a real problem...especially up in Brisbane.

 

[SizeMatters]

Hopefully they raise the draft age as well. Allows the kids to be more mature.

Make the draft age 19 or 20 with a 3 year initial contract for first round picks. Then they'll be at least 22 and probably more settled. Less worried about playing gold with their school mates.

I reckon 21 years old. Gives clubs time to seperate the mentally weak, improves the next tier clubs and allows draftees to work on their game. Only problem is that I feel the next tier clubs just don't have the developmental potential as AFL clubs so that will have to be addressed somehow.

 

[Forward We Go]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

3) I don't think Power is a good example. The AFL world was very different back then, with many fewer trades and players demanding out and players also more willing to serve more of an apprenticeship. Times have obviously changed, as we've seen with player after player demanding trades home. Obviously the world was different back in 1997 to now but the Luke Power example is almost 100% the same. He didnt want to come to Brisbane & was vocal about it yet he was still drafted to Brisbane. The principles of what we are discussing haven't changed. In most cases (not all) players have always been reluctant to move interstate if they have a chance to stay home. Ironically, the difference is that Aaron wants to move from his current home in Perth to Melbourne. Whatever the reason, the AFL has given each club 2 years to make that player part of the club.

4) Because it can't be perfect they shouldn't try and make it better? Maybe we should just remove it if there's no intention to fix something that is obviously broken - I'm starting to lean towards that simply because at least there'll be honesty in the dealings. Many in the AFL cosmos view the rugby league model as broken but I'm starting to think it's the only workable model. Of course they should always try to make it better & I believe the Lions have made changes to help retain players longer term as best they can.

I agree that clubs should be aiming to make their club an environment that players want to stay it. That's not controversial - I don't think I'd be crazy to say that every single club is aiming to do that. I dont think its crazy to say that in the past Brisbane were not good at creating an environment that was conducive to keeping players. Think we are now but 100%. Most are successful to some degree.

However we're seeing situations where many players are going into the draft with a pre-determined view and never entertaining the idea that they would intend to stay at an interstate club. With comments like this it's likely Naughton is just another example. He didn't say that. Those are your words. In fact, the AFL would certainly discourage players who announce something like that. Every aspiring AFL player has ambitions to play at their favourite club.

Funnily enough it's not an general issue. First round picks are massively over-represented in these desires to play in particular states and/or leaving the draftee's club. Agree. Those are the ones that are supposed to be equalising the competition as well...

 

[dlanod]

He didn't say that. Those are your words. In fact, the AFL would certainly discourage players who announce something like that. Every aspiring AFL player has ambitions to play at their favourite club.

There have been numerous examples reported where players have done exactly that. Wingard has been the most well-documented. Clayton referred to others recently also doing that. The AFL is doing exactly nothing to discourage players doing that.

 

[jackess]

There have been numerous examples reported where players have done exactly that. Wingard has been the most well-documented. Clayton referred to others recently also doing that. The AFL is doing exactly nothing to discourage players doing that.

I think teams are combatting this by aggressively going after locals drafted by other clubs. Us with Beams and Cameron, Suns with Weller, Crows with Gibbs, Freo with McCarthy, Wilson, Matera, etc.

Some sort of compensation system for losing value like we did with Schache would be nice.

 

[Comeback Lions]

Answer from Lions_Insider re Cat B rookies (in other thread):
Jivlain said: ↑G'day Lions_Insider, do you know if Matty Eagles and/or Cian Hanley will be considered a Cat B rookie next year?
Both likely to be Cat B. Will be confirmed Wednesday, 29 November at list lodgement.

So this answer suggests that the AFL might have given us permission to list Hanley as Cat B again. Which frees up potentially 6 list spots at draft (if Clay Beams is rookied) or an extra cat A rookie spot if we only make 5 selections at draft. What do you think
dlanod? No precedent for this, so the AFL is making it up as they go?

 

[dlanod]

What do you think
dlanod? No precedent for this, so the AFL is making it up as they go?

Pretty much. IIRC someone has gotten a fourth year before under similar circumstances (injury in first year or two) but they were Cat A and also weren't made to go through the draft.

 

[Fatcat08]

Answer from Lions_Insider re Cat B rookies (in other thread):
Jivlain said: ↑G'day Lions_Insider, do you know if Matty Eagles and/or Cian Hanley will be considered a Cat B rookie next year?
Both likely to be Cat B. Will be confirmed Wednesday, 29 November at list lodgement.

So this answer suggests that the AFL might have given us permission to list Hanley as Cat B again. Which frees up potentially 6 list spots at draft (if Clay Beams is rookied) or an extra cat A rookie spot if we only make 5 selections at draft. What do you think
dlanod? No precedent for this, so the AFL is making it up as they go?

At least they're consistent

 

[Forward We Go]

I think teams are combatting this by aggressively going after locals drafted by other clubs. Us with Beams and Cameron, Suns with Weller, Crows with Gibbs, Freo with McCarthy, Wilson, Matera, etc.

Some sort of compensation system for losing value like we did with Schache would be nice.

I know we lost Schache as our 2nd pick in the 2015 draft & that should be worth better compensation than what we received back. That being said, it will be fascinating to see what value Schache really has in 2-3 years time as the jury is out as to whether he has the mental strength to play AFL at the highest level. Should he not turn out to be a key player in the AFL, we probably should be happy we at least got something rather than nothing if he turns out to be a dud.

 

[jackess]

I know we lost Schache as our 2nd pick in the 2015 draft & that should be worth better compensation than what we received back. That being said, it will be fascinating to see what value Schache really has in 2-3 years time as the jury is out as to whether he has the mental strength to play AFL at the highest level. Should he not turn out to be a key player in the AFL, we probably should be happy we at least got something rather than nothing if he turns out to be a dud.

That's true. Similar with the Aish or O'Rourke trade. We might have done well to get what we got in return.

 

[Forward We Go]

There have been numerous examples reported where players have done exactly that. Wingard has been the most well-documented. Clayton referred to others recently also doing that. The AFL is doing exactly nothing to discourage players doing that.

If you have the chance, ask that question to Lions Insider and see what his answer is. I can confirm that NO new draftee has the AFL's approval to dictate terms as to where he can be drafted & they are ALL instructed as such when entering the draft's terms & conditions. If they are found doing so, they can be suspended (fairly extreme case) from entering that years draft accordingly. Lions Insider should be able to reach out to Noble, Conole &/or Ambrogio to confirm this.

 

[Kevvo]

If you have the chance, ask that question to Lions Insider and see what his answer is. I can confirm that NO new draftee has the AFL's approval to dictate terms as to where he can be drafted & they are ALL instructed as such when entering the draft's terms & conditions. If they are found doing so, they can be suspended (fairly extreme case) from entering that years draft accordingly. Lions Insider should be able to reach out to Noble, Conole &/or Ambrogio to confirm this.

That may be true, but dlanod is certainly right that it’s happening. Chad Wingard acknowledged that he did it a couple of years back and was greeted by praise from the media for his maturity and honesty. IIRC, Cal Twomey also spent some time discussing it on one of the earlier RTTD episodes this year: I got the impression it was reasonably common.

(EDIT: I just re-read dlanod's post and he had already mentioned Wingard. Sorry for laboring the point).

Those rules appear to be toothless.

 

[Tassie4ever]

The earliest case I can recall of blatant draft tampering, or whatever you choose to describe it as, was that of James Cook, who was an outstanding Tasmanian Teal Cup prospect Teal Cup way back when- the 80's I think.

His father, from recollection, made it perfectly clear to all and sundry that his son was going to play for Carltank, and that was it. No matter who drafted him. So he did. No questions asked.

Unfortunately for all concerned, Cook turned out to be a near-complete dud. A big body that allowed him to dominate against younger, less well-developed bodies, but lacking the talent or whatever to do well against mature opposition [does this remind us of a contemporary case, close to home- anyone??].

Get used to it people- the AFL is still really only an extension of the VFL with a few interstate teams tacked on for the sake of TV revenue.

All the whinging in the world will never change the status quo- if the example of a last minute change in rules that meant Nick Reiwoldt went South had been the other way around the rules Eddie would have ensured this was reversed in an instant.

The AFL [so-called] could very quickly alter the retention balance by ensuring draft picks are tied for, say, 4 years. Isn't going to happen. Ever.

 

[dlanod]

If you have the chance, ask that question to Lions Insider and see what his answer is. I can confirm that NO new draftee has the AFL's approval to dictate terms as to where he can be drafted & they are ALL instructed as such when entering the draft's terms & conditions. If they are found doing so, they can be suspended (fairly extreme case) from entering that years draft accordingly. Lions Insider should be able to reach out to Noble, Conole &/or Ambrogio to confirm this.

"Every year, we at Gold Coast speak to would-be draftees and they say to us: 'You can draft me but I'll be coming back (to their home state) after two years'.

- Gold Coast list manager Scott Clayton

"I was pretty honest in how I was feeling," Wingard said.

"They're trying to build a team from nothing and if I lied to them and said 'yeah I want to be here and I'm going to be here for your future', they're putting all their chips on me [only] to find I want to go home in two years.

"They're pretty much going to lose me for nothing.

- Chad Wingard

Apparently none of that is considered "dictating terms", given we're not seeing anyone suspended, yet is it possible to interpret as anything else? I'm not really interested in arguing the letter of the law because I'm sure you're right as to what the rules are. I'm more interested in what's actually happening, and the evidence is overwhelming that draftees are going into the draft with the intent of getting drafted into specific states or not drafted by particular clubs.