Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[katmanblue]

If Kade Simpson retires, Bryce Gibbs gets traded,

On Marc Murphy and Carlton, IF...

* Kade Simpson and Simon White retire, and
* Bryce Gibbs gets traded

Then after Matthew Kreuzer the second longest tenured teammate for Murphy will be Ed Curnow who arrived to the club halfway into Marc Murphy's career to date.

The reality is that all of Murphy's closest teammates will have already departed the club. Who is he loyal to? Aside from Matty K there is nobody at the club for Murphy to lose sleep over being loyal to. He's done everything that he can for the club. Has given it 5 years as captain where he has been knocked from pillar to post.

Read what the historically loyal players have had to say about their loyalty to the team's that they've been loyal to. Many have said that they couldn't imagine playing for a different coach. Marc's had 5. Others have said that they couldn't imagine leaving their career long friends behind, Kreuzer's the only one left.

It's an entirely different team and club to the one that Murphy developed and became captain in. It's time for Marc Murphy to be loyal to himself and his family. If that's staying at Carlton then good on him. But if he chose otherwise, you couldn't blame him.

Some fair points here that are easy to overlook because we see them as players and commodities rather than people.

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[DangerousD]

Marc Murphys biggest weakness is that he plays for us.
Feel free to think he should be traded as he is passed it or won't be around for our next tilt.
But to suggest he isn't a good player or a crap leader or he doesn't put in is laughable.

 

[Wickzki]

Was waiting with baited breath for loyalty to supporters to get a run but not to be.

I would have, Thy. But you and I both know that that sentiment doesn't truly exist at either the club level or the player level.

For example, look at how the club treated the BigFooty Carlton forum in regards to player sponsorship.

 

[Coona Blues]

With Cas apparently already wearing yellow and black and GWS being too tall in the forward line, I wonder if someone like Patton now enters calculations...

I am amazed at this thought process to put it politely.
It is hotly debated that Cameron, Patton and Lobb (fwd/ruck) is too tall. We have Charlie shaping like
a superstar, McKay has passed his audition, although is still developmental. Weitering can certainly be
in the mix. So many on here disrespect Kerr, who was U18 all Australian and reportedly was more ready
than Harry on exposed NB form. Jack SOS is 3rd tall size, and almost cast in stone his "bigger and better"
brother will be joining the fold next year. Add Rowe and Jones as pinch hitters and Phillips as a possible
partner for Kreuzer.

We need mids and effective small medium pressure forwards who can hit the scoreboard much more than
blowing out draft and trade currency on a key forward rather than being patient. While you would "make
room" if Lynch is available as a FA, we cannot afford to "sell the farm" for a KPF.

 

[Wickzki]

What role do you see Murph playing at GWS?

Rotational mid who spends more of his time playing more out of the forward line. He'd be a natural half forward.

 

[Dramoth]

What do you think we would want for our first round pick this year?

If its pick 1, Kelly, Hopper, and one of Whitfield or Devon Smith.

Pick 2, I would like to think Kelly and one of Whitfield or Smith.

 

[Wickzki]

If its pick 1, Kelly, Hopper, and one of Whitfield or Devon Smith.

Pick 2, I would like to think Kelly and one of Whitfield or Smith.

 

[curnow4brownlow]

If its pick 1, Kelly, Hopper, and one of Whitfield or Devon Smith.

Pick 2, I would like to think Kelly and one of Whitfield or Smith.

No way we get that much for pick one or 2, Kelly is a gun he is worth pick 2 by himself, Kelly and a rookie is worth pick 1 but not 3 players who are all guns

 

[I AM CARLTON]

Gibbs gets a lot of inside ball.

Couldnt agree more Gibbs is second at the club for contested possesions, first at the club for tackles & second for clearances some people just have no idea!

 

[Dramoth]

No way we get that much for pick one or 2, Kelly is a gun he is worth pick 2 by himself, Kelly and a rookie is worth pick 1 but not 3 players who are all guns

If we were trading out our first round pick, that is what I would expect to see coming into the club. It's not a complete trade, but I would like to see that as a result.

Especially if we are resigned to losing Gibbs.

 

[curnow4brownlow]

If we were trading out our first round pick, that is what I would expect to see coming into the club. It's not a complete trade, but I would like to see that as a result.

Especially if we are resigned to losing Gibbs.

We would have to give up all our picks and plus doc to get those 3, no way we would get more then Kelly and hopper for pick 1 and no way gws would give up Kelly hopper smith for cam Rayner

 

[thylacine60]

I would have, Thy. But you and I both know that that sentiment doesn't truly exist at either the club level or the player level.

For example, look at how the club treated the BigFooty Carlton forum in regards to player sponsorship.

hear that - club treatment of supporters a little different to player loyalty to same

 

[Arr0w]

It's clear that most of us are at polar opposites when it comes to recruiting & list management, especially transitioning our senior players. While this divide will never overlap, nor should it, the distance will start to narrow quickly as we build for sustained success.

Previous regimes took planing for granted, while reaping the rewards of past harvests. Personally, some of these "green shoots" are already starting to flower and we should soon start salivating at the fruits they will bear

 

[JustaBattler]

If we were trading out our first round pick, that is what I would expect to see coming into the club. It's not a complete trade, but I would like to see that as a result.

Especially if we are resigned to losing Gibbs.

Assuming Gibbs will only go to Adelaide - I don't think they want to spend the picks - I reckon he is going anywhere tbh.. it is all up to Adelaide to make it happen and SOS needs an offer to good to refuse...

on an optimistic note - Murphy and Gibbs are probably as excited about the new players in and coming and the Club direction as optimistic Carlton supporters are...Murphy a sneaky chance to play finals before he is retired and Gibbs 'young enough' to certainly be pushing hard from 2019 onwards...

against this is the fact that both are going to see their pay decline significantly going forward...

 

[KnobHead]

Won't be bringing in Saad this year, will see out his contract and then will be on the move. Expect Blues and Pies to try nab him.

If we're thinking of bringing in Saad in 2019 then the process of de-Gold Coastian him needs to start now. It'll be a lengthy process that could take more than a year.

He'll need to get used to eating high performance foods, cutting-edge gym training, acceptable skin fold levels for the AFL, media training, learning to follow logical and strategic game plans, intense psychological rescheduling, mental rehabilitation, how to interact with wider society - all in all, to become a modern day footballer.

It may be too late, but we need to start now while there's still hope.



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[F_therest]

I am amazed at this thought process to put it politely.
It is hotly debated that Cameron, Patton and Lobb (fwd/ruck) is too tall. We have Charlie shaping like
a superstar, McKay has passed his audition, although is still developmental. Weitering can certainly be
in the mix. So many on here disrespect Kerr, who was U18 all Australian and reportedly was more ready
than Harry on exposed NB form. Jack SOS is 3rd tall size, and almost cast in stone his "bigger and better"
brother will be joining the fold next year. Add Rowe and Jones as pinch hitters and Phillips as a possible
partner for Kreuzer.

We need mids and effective small medium pressure forwards who can hit the scoreboard much more than
blowing out draft and trade currency on a key forward rather than being patient. While you would "make
room" if Lynch is available as a FA, we cannot afford to "sell the farm" for a KPF.

Yep for now all our valuable trade assets need to be used to acquire top end talent midfielders.

History shows you can win premierships with a B+ grade forward line and also a small forward line...but you need a good midfield.

Bulldogs last year won without many good talls and tigers are winning games with barely any tall forwards, basing their game around movement, running and pressure from smaller players.

As you said we already have quite a lot of promising talls on our list... We can't even squeeze all our kpds in one team.

 

[Soapy V]

Rotational mid who spends more of his time playing more out of the forward line. He'd be a natural half forward.

Like to see him doing that for us next season. Murphy is a natural goalkicker.

If we got Hopper & Balic plus Raynor, kept Gibbs added to a fit Cripps & Curnow along with a much improved Charlie Cuningham Fisher Polson Pickett & SPS I can see them all rotating through the forward line and kicking goals.

Add Wright & LeBois around McKay Silvagni & Kerr or maybe Rowe/Kruezer.

Then our forward line issues are well and truly solved

 

[KohPhi]

I am amazed at this thought process to put it politely.
It is hotly debated that Cameron, Patton and Lobb (fwd/ruck) is too tall. We have Charlie shaping like
a superstar, McKay has passed his audition, although is still developmental. Weitering can certainly be
in the mix. So many on here disrespect Kerr, who was U18 all Australian and reportedly was more ready
than Harry on exposed NB form. Jack SOS is 3rd tall size, and almost cast in stone his "bigger and better"
brother will be joining the fold next year. Add Rowe and Jones as pinch hitters and Phillips as a possible
partner for Kreuzer.
We need mids and effective small medium pressure forwards who can hit the scoreboard much more than
blowing out draft and trade currency on a key forward rather than being patient. While you would "make
room" if Lynch is available as a FA, we cannot afford to "sell the farm" for a KPF.

Love the enthusiasm mate, we need more of it around these parts.
But let's look at this without the blue tinged glasses for a sec..
Charlie is 2-3 seasons away from being in your words "a superstar"... will have patches of greatness and will go missing at times. Historical evidence in young talls doing this is overwhelming..
Harry has passed his audition yes. But if he tracks a similar path to say, Daniher, then he is 30 - 40 games away still from being a regular 2-3 a game goal kicker..
Kerr hasn't played a game... (has potential though)
Rowe and Jones.. cmon man, now you're just jibber jabbering..
Young SOS still needs consistency and another 2 pre seasons to bulk up..

If Cas leaves, our forwardline will be even more easy to manouvre out of than it has been this season. Who will take on Cas's role as pinch hitter ruck/forward.
Who will be our target up front. Who will straighten us up? Who will provide the big body to make our kids walk a bit taller?
Who will kick our goals, we are already the lowest scoring side in the AFL.. let's take Cas's 20-30 out and pin our hopes on 4 x 18-20 year olds.
All that will guarantee is pick 1 again next season. **** that!

Don't get me wrong, we need mids and medium forwards as an absolute priority. I agree, but potentially having pick 1allows us to at least consider an option where we can trade in a big bodied forward and a decent mid.

Will it happen? Who knows. I can catagorically state nobody here especially. But we would be negligent if the opportunity arose and it wasn't investigated..

 

[TerryWallet]

Marc Murphys biggest weakness is that he plays for us.
Feel free to think he should be traded as he is passed it or won't be around for our next tilt.
But to suggest he isn't a good player or a crap leader or he doesn't put in is laughable.

Accurate post.

Now to look at it from Carlton's Pov instead of a Murphy Pov though:

Carlton's biggest weakness is that Murphy has been our best option as a Leader.

He is not a crap player, he is a very good player. He puts in as much as he physically can. Which is conditional. Which is not optimal as a Leader.

He is the best Leader Marc Murphy can be, but i hope he is not the best leader Carlton have going forward.

I would like to keep Murphy. Have never seen him as tradeable. From our POV, we need him as an experienced player, and i don't think we would get an optimal return for him. The only club who would consider giving us an optimal return is GWS but he is not the player for them.

So keep him, but imo we cannot keep going with him as Captain.

We need to be a new Carlton from 2018 forward. A harder nosed team. A more respected outfit.

Docherty and Cripps are ready. I just hope we do it....but dunno if we will.

 

[Matty411]

Docherty and Cripps are ready. I just hope we do it....but dunno if we will.

This will depend on whether the playing group agree with you.

 

[Funk]

Murphy didn't appoint himself captain so no issue on that point, although I look forward to what the next leadership group will bring along.

Will be interesting to see whether we move on from Marc next year.
The club wouldn't dare make noise about their captain, but I can't help wondering what's going on behind closed doors in regards to him.

Do we keep Murphy on as captain?
What process would we employ for doing so? The players vote?
Murphy's contract expires next year, so what are our plans for tenure & remuneration, post 2018?
Will Marc like our offer if there is to be one? What if he doesn't appreciate what we offer?

In regards to trade:
We don't have much in way of trade value after Gibbs and if Gibbs doesn't want to go.....what then?
SOS will not / can not trade out 2 first rounders, so we're a little limited in the tradable commodity stakes.

All speculation I know, but surely some issues can surface here.

Interesting post Harks.

If Murphy is eligible for FA next year the club may prefer not to have the current Captain "walk" - and then the "look" that would generate inside/outside the club.

Maybe easier to switch Captain at the the start of 2018 which takes all the emotion/heat out of the situation come the end of the year.

 

[TerryWallet]

This will depend on whether the playing group agree with you.

Yes it will.

And the Coach.

 

[Forty3]

Really disappointing with Cas apparently out the way out that we haven't given Jaksch a chance on the back of 8 goals in two games in the magoos. What is the harm of giving him 3 weeks of AFL football and a chance to show his worth, build some momentum and snag a 1 year contract a minimum wage + incentive bonuses.
It's not going to hurt Levi's trade value by saying he is out with a sore knee or something for the last couple of weeks.

 

[Jimmae]

Gibbs gets a lot of inside ball.

Sorry, the rest of that paragraph was referring to Whitfield, but it wasn't made clear. I've updated the original post.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Accurate post.

Now to look at it from Carlton's Pov instead of a Murphy Pov though:

Carlton's biggest weakness is that Murphy has been our best option as a Leader.

He is not a crap player, he is a very good player. He puts in as much as he physically can. Which is conditional. Which is not optimal as a Leader.

He is the best Leader Marc Murphy can be, but i hope he is not the best leader Carlton have going forward.

I would like to keep Murphy. Have never seen him as tradeable. From our POV, we need him as an experienced player, and i don't think we would get an optimal return for him. The only club who would consider giving us an optimal return is GWS but he is not the player for them.

So keep him, but imo we cannot keep going with him as Captain.

We need to be a new Carlton from 2018 forward. A harder nosed team. A more respected outfit.

Docherty and Cripps are ready. I just hope we do it....but dunno if we will.

The same was being said about Cotchin last season. I seriously think the whole captaincy thing is overrated.
Hodge is the best leader I've seen since Voss and the first time he doesn't have a good team to lead the team turns to shit. Get the cattle and let the players decide who they want to lead them