Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[HARKER]

Anyone saying we should trade Weiters needs to go support another side! He's a generational player in his 2nd year! This bloke has 10yrs of elite level football ahead and was a standout #1 pick!

Weitering will be a terrific player. Can't say he's a terrific player on current performance, but there are reasons for that.
Not out of the question we take him out of playing for the rest of the year and just get him right.
I don't know as fact that anything is wrong with him, but it sure comes across that way.

Does have to learn not to play up to injury too much, also.
Reckon he can iron that out of his system pretty quickly once the confidence is regained.

 

[BJuddy]

The other indirect outcome is that you offer yourself (as a club) to be a bit of a laughing stock. Media love to stick the boots in "Carlton are still a basket case" etc. You have to weigh up whether you are a realistic chance of getting one against the backlash for asking (and the flow on effects like next years membership figures not to mention the customary 50 page Carlton are crap threads on the main board). Old criteria used to be 4 or less wins in the two latest seasons. With 7 and 5 I can't see us getting one however it now appears to be done on an arbitrary basis.
Personally I would prefer to club to show a steely resolve "We are on the road, we know where we are going and we have taken the correct path to get us there".

I doubt the club is worried if we get 50 pages of posts on our board saying we are crap. They are looking at ways to make the team better.

Personally I cant see how we deserve one. Fact is we have a lot of young talent coming through and that will take time a PP will also take time. I think the panel will see this and say that we have enough and a PP will not realistically enhance the speed. All it will do is strengthen us when the player develops. Which is not what i think they will want.

We have chosen our path, started down it, now we just need to continue to develop the green shoots. The rest will come with a little bit of time and patience and confidence.

I am generally excited about where we are heading and as painful as it is with the losses piling up there is light at the end of the tunnel. we just gotta keep going without going full 'Melbourne fire sale'.

I think SOS has been fantastic as has Bolts, 5 weeks ago the optimism was there, we get a few injuries and look at what happens, some people turn rabid because we are not in finals contention on the second year of a reset. Yes we have depth issues and yes we have players who will not make it, but this is what SOS has been working on fixing and has done a great job.

If it were about wins and losses then we would be playing palmer and smedts, etc but we are developing our young guys like fisher and SPS. This will prove invaluable in a few years.

Trading Weiters is silly and an overreaction, last year proved what he can be, this year He is not used in the same role and has struggled at times which is again exploiting some weaknesses for him to fix and will make him a better player. Players have been prone to second year blues, big deal. He can be a star and i would argue will be, watch this space.

Finally, with Kelly, SOS has proved he wont sell the farm to get a good player in, i.e. Carlise, O'Merea, etc. If we get him it will be at an appropriate price same as if we sell Gibbs, this trade period looms as very exciting and a lot of interesting prospects.

Can't wait for the start of next year. May still be some rocky times ahead in short term but the future looks really bright to me.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I don't think the club would be too worried about what the media has to say...



...and I certainly don't think they care what people on BigFooty say!

How many members do you really think we'd lose by asking the question?



I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

Why can't we ask for a priority pick whilst understanding we're on the right path?

Agree with this. This is a competition where the goal is to win.

If you are able to obtain an advantage legally, you'd be a fool not to take it.

Also remember its never been an even playing field.

-Geelong have Simmonds
-Interstate have COLA
-GWS and GCS got a raft of concessions

 

[BluesRule]

The Hawks had 1 PP mate.

Bullocks. Heres a few early PPs they had...

2001 Pick 1 Luke Hodge Hawthorn, pick traded from Fremantle
2004 Pick 2 Jarryd Roughead Hawthorn
2005 Pick 3 Xavier Ellis Hawthorn

Tell me those players did not help them rebuild.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Bullocks. Heres a few early PPs they had...

2001 Pick 1 Luke Hodge Hawthorn, pick traded from Fremantle
2004 Pick 2 Jarryd Roughead Hawthorn
2005 Pick 3 Xavier Ellis Hawthorn

Tell me those players did not help them rebuild.

Why is the Hodge pick there

 

[katmanblue]

Why not apply for one.
All the AFL can say is no.

Last week i was getting shot down just for suggesting not ruling out applying for one.

On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

Where have we finished the last 2 years?

At the bottom. I was replying to a thread stating top teams have been making 8-12 changes regularly.

Its easier to do that when you have players other teams may want.



On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

The other indirect outcome is that you offer yourself (as a club) to be a bit of a laughing stock. Media love to stick the boots in "Carlton are still a basket case" etc. You have to weigh up whether you are a realistic chance of getting one against the backlash for asking (and the flow on effects like next years membership figures not to mention the customary 50 page Carlton are crap threads on the main board). Old criteria used to be 4 or less wins in the two latest seasons. With 7 and 5 I can't see us getting one however it now appears to be done on an arbitrary basis.
Personally I would prefer to club to show a steely resolve "We are on the road, we know where we are going and we have taken the correct path to get us there".

Id prefer pick 2 and 3

On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Wily trout]

I doubt the club is worried if we get 50 pages of posts on our board saying we are crap. They are looking at ways to make the team better.

Personally I cant see how we deserve one. Fact is we have a lot of young talent coming through and that will take time a PP will also take time. I think the panel will see this and say that we have enough and a PP will not realistically enhance the speed. All it will do is strengthen us when the player develops. Which is not what i think they will want.

We have chosen our path, started down it, now we just need to continue to develop the green shoots. The rest will come with a little bit of time and patience and confidence.

I am generally excited about where we are heading and as painful as it is with the losses piling up there is light at the end of the tunnel. we just gotta keep going without going full 'Melbourne fire sale'.

I think SOS has been fantastic as has Bolts, 5 weeks ago the optimism was there, we get a few injuries and look at what happens, some people turn rabid because we are not in finals contention on the second year of a reset. Yes we have depth issues and yes we have players who will not make it, but this is what SOS has been working on fixing and has done a great job.

If it were about wins and losses then we would be playing palmer and smedts, etc but we are developing our young guys like fisher and SPS. This will prove invaluable in a few years.

Trading Weiters is silly and an overreaction, last year proved what he can be, this year He is not used in the same role and has struggled at times which is again exploiting some weaknesses for him to fix and will make him a better player. Players have been prone to second year blues, big deal. He can be a star and i would argue will be, watch this space.

Finally, with Kelly, SOS has proved he wont sell the farm to get a good player in, i.e. Carlise, O'Merea, etc. If we get him it will be at an appropriate price same as if we sell Gibbs, this trade period looms as very exciting and a lot of interesting prospects.

Can't wait for the start of next year. May still be some rocky times ahead in short term but the future looks really bright to me.

Personally think we should apply and also be granted one. Why not, we will finish bottom two, yes with plenty of good kids coming through. I can't see it affecting memberships or member's excitement about our direction. Last year we took Palmer and Smedts. People were surprised but no big deal, we knew why. When said PP is running around with thirty games under his belt showing he belongs, who will care how we got him? The point is we would have access to another potentially good young player. Pride plays a role, yes, but I would prefer a little pride sting and a good kid on the list.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Id prefer pick 2 and 3

On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

My understanding is that it is unlikely to be any more 1st round P.P's (unless there was a complete basket case). At best you would be looking at end of 1st round. Clearly Brisbane (at this stage) would have to get one before us. My take is that we are 99.999 recurring % chance of getting a no. Would prefer as a club we showed confidence in our planning than put out the begging bowl.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Personally think we should apply and also be granted one. Why not, we will finish bottom two, yes with plenty of good kids coming through. I can't see it affecting memberships or member's excitement about our direction. Last year we took Palmer and Smedts. People were surprised but no big deal, we knew why. When said PP is running around with thirty games under his belt showing he belongs, who will care how we got him? The point is we would have access to another potentially good young player. Pride plays a role, yes, but I would prefer a little pride sting and a good kid on the list.

Surely we are not entitled to a priority pick just because we finish second last? Pretty much all agree that the root of our problems have been self inflicted. Why reward incompetence?

 

[BJuddy]

Personally think we should apply and also be granted one. Why not, we will finish bottom two, yes with plenty of good kids coming through. I can't see it affecting memberships or member's excitement about our direction. Last year we took Palmer and Smedts. People were surprised but no big deal, we knew why. When said PP is running around with thirty games under his belt showing he belongs, who will care how we got him? The point is we would have access to another potentially good young player. Pride plays a role, yes, but I would prefer a little pride sting and a good kid on the list.

I don't disagree that we should ask for one. I personally don't think we deserve one though, and I would be shocked should we get one.

But if it comes, then we will and should take it.

I don't care where or how a player gets to us as long as they are pulling there weight.

 

[Wily trout]

Surely we are not entitled to a priority pick just because we finish second last? Pretty much all agree that the root of our problems have been self inflicted. Why reward incompetence?

You are right, point about bottom two was more about member's pride in receiving a PP., get help where we can kinda thing when you're down the bottom.

 

[HBF]

Last week i was getting shot down just for suggesting not ruling out applying for one.

On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah, this board can be like that at times.
We'll finish with 5 wins for the year, so I don't see why we wouldn't apply for one.
If I was in charge i'd be applying.

 

[Wily trout]

Surely we are not entitled to a priority pick just because we finish second last? Pretty much all agree that the root of our problems have been self inflicted. Why reward incompetence?

In regards to Brisbane and their loss of players, many feel that it was a matter of location, but many also felt culture played a role. I am friends with James Aishe's aunt, and he couldn't wait to get out. Big issues with Rockcliffe and other senior players and big issues with Leppitsch. Maybe James was part of the problem maybe he wasn't, there are usually two sides to a story, but the fact is they lost many good young players. If culture was the problem then couldn't it be argued as self inflicted and as such not deserving of a P pick. If we were such a basket case for so long, doesn't the AFL have a responsibility to help/advise/support regardless of the reasons? Anyway sorry to sound preachy.

 

[BluesRule]

Why is the Hodge pick there

Because if we get a PP it is tradeable (i.e.. Saad or Hooper) - still helps us towards #17.
Hawks made out like bandits on that trade of a PP... and took it to the draft.

There are two other top 3 PP's identified.

 

[My name geoff]

Lever (crows) > Collingwood 1st pick (pick 5)
Pick 5, pick 38 (crows) > Gibbs, 2018 2nd round

Pick 1 > Kelly
Pick 5 > Redpath, pick 12
Casboult > F.A. Pick 20
Pick 12, Byrne > Hopper, Smith
Pick 54 > Balic
Pick 38 > Dureya
Pick 20 > Castagna




In: Kelly, Redpath, Hopper, Smith, Balic, Dureya, Castagna

Out: Gibbs, Pick 1, Casboult, Byrne, Pick 54, 2018 2nd

Dureya Jones Weitering
Docherty Marchbank Plowman
SPS Cripps Murphy
Curnow Redpath Smith
Silvagni McKay Castagna

Kruezer Kelly Hopper

Wright Balic Simpson Williamson Ed Fisher Cuningham Pickett Macreadie

 

[bluekidjoe]

Surely we are not entitled to a priority pick just because we finish second last? Pretty much all agree that the root of our problems have been self inflicted. Why reward incompetence?

We'd have to be considered. Every team's failures on or off the field have been self-inflicted, a club has a say in every one of their own decisions. We'd be no different to any prior PP recipients.

 

[BluesRule]

In regards to Brisbane and their loss of players, many feel that it was a matter of location, but many also felt culture played a role. I am friends with James Aishe's aunt, and he couldn't wait to get out. Big issues with Rockcliffe and other senior players and big issues with Leppitsch. Maybe James was part of the problem maybe he wasn't, there are usually two sides to a story, but the fact is they lost many good young players. If culture was the problem then couldn't it be argued as self inflicted and as such not deserving of a P pick. If we were such a basket case for so long, doesn't the AFL have a responsibility to help/advise/support regardless of the reasons? Anyway sorry to sound preachy.

I still think the AFL owe us for the over-reaction to our salary cap breaches. Our penalty was designed to destroy the club at a time the AFL were seeking to decrease the number of teams in Melbourne. There has never been a comparable penalty delivered by the AFL. That we survived is amazing,

and I know we have F*****d up since (whoever thought removing Ratten was a good idea ... etc.) but even Essendon got a #1 draft pick, were allowed to trade players, were given top up players, etc. when they orchestrated 34 players taking Performancing Drugs. Hardly an even AFL competition so if we can get a PP I am all for it.

 

[BluesRule]

Personally think we should apply and also be granted one. Why not, we will finish bottom two, yes with plenty of good kids coming through. I can't see it affecting memberships or member's excitement about our direction. Last year we took Palmer and Smedts. People were surprised but no big deal, we knew why. When said PP is running around with thirty games under his belt showing he belongs, who will care how we got him? The point is we would have access to another potentially good young player. Pride plays a role, yes, but I would prefer a little pride sting and a good kid on the list.

Agree Brisbane got a PP last year. No one remembers...

 

[I bleed Blue]

As I said a week or two ago, and got howled down for. We should definitely apply for a PP.

The worst that can happen is the AFL say no.

Think we have some grounds for one though. Potentially about to finish last again this year. With no more than 5 wins.

Arguablly our best midfielder (Gibbs) could be leaving. Yes we will get some thing back in the door for him, but it could just be young talent, meaning we probably go slightly backwards next year again.

Also our main target up forward could be leaving.

We have to ask for one. Look we might get one at the pointy end of the draft, might get a 2nd round pick (which we currently don't have)... Or we might get nothing.

We are negligent if we don't ask the question.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Because if we get a PP it is tradeable (i.e.. Saad or Hooper) - still helps us towards #17.
Hawks made out like bandits on that trade of a PP... and took it to the draft.

There are two other top 3 PP's identified.

They Traded out the pretty much equal to Marchbank and McKay to get that pick 1

 

[BluesRule]

They Traded out the pretty much equal to Marchbank and McKay to get that pick 1

Hawks got Sam mitchell and Luke Hodge via that trade. Probably one of the greatest trades ever for them.

Cost was Trent Croad (who kicked 42 and 18 goals for freo before getting homesick after two years and returning to the Hawks to be all Australian in 2006/ freo got Rylie Dunn for him) and Luke mcPharlin (who was an injury prone pick #10 2 years earlier, took him 5 years in the AFL to play 50 games. in 2012 went all australian but only in 5 seasons/16 did he play 20 games or more).

Would think Hawks do that trade again!

 

[HBF]

As I said a week or two ago, and got howled down for. We should definitely apply for a PP.

The worst that can happen is the AFL say no.

Think we have some grounds for one though. Potentially about to finish last again this year. With no more than 5 wins.

Arguablly our best midfielder (Gibbs) could be leaving. Yes we will get some thing back in the door for him, but it could just be young talent, meaning we probably go slightly backwards next year again.

Also our main target up forward could be leaving.

We have to ask for one. Look we might get one at the pointy end of the draft, might get a 2nd round pick (which we currently don't have)... Or we might get nothing.

We are negligent if we don't ask the question.

I'm with you IBB. At the very least we should apply for one.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Hawks got Sam mitchell and Luke Hodge via that trade. Probably one of the greatest trades ever for them.

Cost was Trent Croad (who kicked 42 and 18 goals for freo before getting homesick after two years and returning to the Hawks to be all Australian in 2006/ freo got Rylie Dunn for him) and Luke mcPharlin (who was an injury prone pick #10 2 years earlier, took him 5 years in the AFL to play 50 games. in 2012 went all australian but only in 5 seasons/16 did he play 20 games or more).

Would think Hawks do that trade again!

And what has any of that got to do with a PP?