Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[BrisbaneCFC]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

If Gibbs is staying I would prefer we get Hopper over Kelly.

 

[Abyss]

Out of curiosity - which free agents do you reckon we'd be able to bring in to play that senior mentor type role for 2018? And as an extension of that - what is it about those players that makes you think they'd be a substantial upgrade on Daisy?

As far as size goes, I agree that we're looking a bit small this season, or more accurately we've had a combination of too many talls and smalls and not enough "in-betweeners". That will hopefully change for next season though if we can start the year with Cripps and Curnow back into the 22, Ciaran Byrne back into the 22, plus another preseason into Charlie, Willo, SPS, Cunners, Jack, Pickett, Fisher etc. The trick is going to be supporting those young players with smart operators who can efficiently and effectively set us up structurally. Gibbs, Murph, Kreuz - they're too quiet and too focused on their own games to be effective at "leading" properly.

Thomas getting a spot on another list? Irrelevant. No other club is in the same position as we are, so debating whether any given Carlton player is good enough to play elsewhere is comparing apples with gorringes.

And finally - there it is again. $600k per season and out with injury...makes it hard to fairly assess the bloke when that history has to be mentioned every. Single. Time.

I cant name a player a present who may be able to come on next season and play a Thomas role. But I gave an example of players who were released 2016. I didnt include Dangerfield either. They are rare and valueable, I heard we made an offer to Lewis and he went elswhere. You mentioned Thomas probably wouldnt get a run anywhere else, Id say the suns and possible the bears would be keen for an experienced on field general, vant see them fighting for his services. You all so mention intagibles, or a greater intrinsic value, if you cant at least nullify your opponent any amount of pointing at the grass wont help, because you need help. That throws out the structure because your man doesnt have to worry about you unless your 20m from goal. Or, get creative, put rocket eade in a runners uniform and get him doing the nick maxwell role(gws). Teams can concentrate tactics for Gibbs, Murph and anyone else we have winning their position on the day. The mid fielders and such you mention surely have enough time now to study film, speak with coaches and sort that out. If they dont see you later. Hopefully Murph could be released from the inside role and quaterback the forward stucture as Kruz, curnow and cripps know what they are doing. Contracts mentioned because Thomas was brought in, at the time, as one of these high paid 'leaders' FA and if looking at wins and losses, he has failed. Weve lost good players from the club in his time here and I would think his bloated contract, would have played a part in what others thought they should earn. I dont mind him being around the club at all, but not as a fully contracted listed player. Looking forward, he may impede our chances signing a good free agent or hamper a rookies development. This year he may have had relevance, but I am just proposing we have given him plenty and if he is on the park as best 22 next year, we are in for more brave losses. He has had a fair go, he played with swannie and co at collingwood, so he couldve helped our rough diamonds but didnt seem to have an effect, and hasnt developed a winning culture. The disappontment leveled at murph and gibbs after every loss should include Thomas. But he escapes that scrutiny, its normally only his contract as you say, but he gets a pass on the leadership aspect, with VFL performance that will only decline even further. Come and play for CFC next year, we have Daisy here to show you the way! Unlikely.

 

[I AM CARLTON]

1. For the first time ever I am relaxed about Gibbs at Carlton based on what he has contributed week in week out - he has been putting his head over the ball when required and doing hard yards sans Cripps and Ed and doing them very well. Gibbs is worth much more than a high teens pick to Carlton. If he is happy to stay we win big time especially since ( even using my mongrel meter) ;

2. A Kelly added to Gibbs and Cripps playing off Kreuzer is a finals core.

3. You then have the luxury of playing Murphy | Cuningham | Pickett | Fisher as your genuine class outside run and distributors.

4. Inside rotations are handled by Ed Curnow |Kerridge and maybe a developing Polson coming on or a Williamson restructured to a midfield role.

If SOS can jag 2 quality mids and keep Gibbs - the midfield is pretty much set and normal drafting can keep it ticking over.

Love this dont forget SPS he will be a JET!

 

[Blue__Balls]

I cant name a player a present who may be able to come on next season and play a Thomas role. But I gave an example of players who were released 2016. I didnt include Dangerfield either. They are rare and valueable, I heard we made an offer to Lewis and he went elswhere. You mentioned Thomas probably wouldnt get a run anywhere else, Id say the suns and possible the bears would be keen for an experienced on field general, vant see them fighting for his services. You all so mention intagibles, or a greater intrinsic value, if you cant at least nullify your opponent any amount of pointing at the grass wont help, because you need help. That throws out the structure because your man doesnt have to worry about you unless your 20m from goal. Or, get creative, put rocket eade in a runners uniform and get him doing the nick maxwell role(gws). Teams can concentrate tactics for Gibbs, Murph and anyone else we have winning their position on the day. The mid fielders and such you mention surely have enough time now to study film, speak with coaches and sort that out. If they dont see you later. Hopefully Murph could be released from the inside role and quaterback the forward stucture as Kruz, curnow and cripps know what they are doing. Contracts mentioned because Thomas was brought in, at the time, as one of these high paid 'leaders' FA and if looking at wins and losses, he has failed. Weve lost good players from the club in his time here and I would think his bloated contract, would have played a part in what others thought they should earn. I dont mind him being around the club at all, but not as a fully contracted listed player. Looking forward, he may impede our chances signing a good free agent or hamper a rookies development. This year he may have had relevance, but I am just proposing we have given him plenty and if he is on the park as best 22 next year, we are in for more brave losses. He has had a fair go, he played with swannie and co at collingwood, so he couldve helped our rough diamonds but didnt seem to have an effect, and hasnt developed a winning culture. The disappontment leveled at murph and gibbs after every loss should include Thomas. But he escapes that scrutiny, its normally only his contract as you say, but he gets a pass on the leadership aspect, with VFL performance that will only decline even further. Come and play for CFC next year, we have Daisy here to show you the way! Unlikely.

This is a lot of effort you're putting into one player - again, predominantly based on preconceived ideas about what he's been paid.

What we paid Daisy Thomas in 2015 or 2016 is irrelevant. What we potentially pay him in 2018 is the kicker. We can't turn over 15 blokes this year, despite the fact that we could probably name 15 that we'd want to cut. If we can replace 10, I doubt Daisy is in that group, which means he probably sticks around for another year on a heavily reduced wage. This won't be because we expect him to win us games, and to suggest that his recruitment has been a failure based on our win/loss ratio over the last few years is extremely narrow-minded. By the same logic we may as well delist Docherty.

Daisy's input is measured on how his presence aids in the development and improvement of our players 21 and under. He could play a similar role as a coach, but then we're bringing in an 18 year old kid with Pick 90 and assuming that that will make us a better side. Silly. It also assumes that all young players respond the same way to a coach as they do to a senior player. Also untrue. Daisy is being treated as an extension of the coaching group within the playing group. It's an important role, and one that our other senior leaders are less inherently capable of performing based on their personality types. Any good team plays to the strengths of its members - so judge players on what they bring to the table that helps the collective, rather than assuming because they can't do X they serve no purpose.

 

[Pafloyul]

Personally think that's a pretty good offer for Levi. I wouldn't be offering anymore, but its a decent offer for his output. If he believes there is a better offer out there for him well good luck to him, wish you well wherever you land.

Hate to be 'that guy' Brissy, but it's 'any more' in that context rather the one word.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Club looking at McVeigh.

Another name that I've heard recently whose looking to get into coaching after his career, potentially, is Mark LeCras. He hasn't been linked to us in any way, shape or form but might be attainable in that type of role (if he was willing to do a reverse Sam Mitchell).

le cras is almost exactly the opposite of what we are looking for. selfish, doesn't chase and doesn't tackle.would be a terrible pick up.

 

[LordLucifer]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/01dcafcae3ee5b9b86e3abd9f85b74ce

WESTERN Bulldogs could lose one of its talented young midfielders as rivals circle versatile ball winner Lukas Webb. The 21-year-old has struggled to lock down a senior berth in his third AFL season and is weighing up his future.

The Dogs are keen to keep Webb and have offered him a deal to stay for at least the next two years. But the No.27 draft pick is eyeing more senior AFL opportunities and looks set to wait until after the season to make a decision.

I reckon he'd be a good addition to our list.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Who does he think he is, the new Jesaulenko ??

I hope we withdraw that offer and he goes off into the night for good.

the average player is on $379k next year (or similar) including the 20 or so who dont play seniors regularly. not sure $400k is an overly generous offer. clubs concern would be length of contract. ideally we would offer $500k for 2. hopefully by then he is superseded. clearly levi will be looking for a longer term as this is his last big pay day. if we tabled that offer and he received a better offer elsewhere we would be in a position to gain the compensation that we require.

 

[dazdoggy]

We need to try get Fiorini (in contract until end of 2018) his way too good for Neafl.

 

[F_therest]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

I think it's a good thing... General improvement from guys like boek, sps, fisher, Cuningham and Pickett should help our midfield depth and one or two draftees like Rayner/LDU.

If we add a Kelly or Hopper to that instead we should be in reasonable shape.

Still don't think Adelaide would offer enough for us to let Gibbs go anyway.

The one I'd probably prefer leave is casboult if we can get pick 18... I'd rather the pick and then fast track our other forwards or go smaller up front is fine as well.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Hate to be 'that guy' Brissy, but it's 'any more' in that context rather the one word.

My bad. Bloody grammar Nazi. hahahaha

 

[F_therest]

You could also spin it as saying that now is the time to trade for a Kelly (ideally a Kelly/Hopper package). If Gibbs stays, we've got 3-4 years of him and Murphy in their prime, in which case there is a need to accelerate improvement.

Keep Gibbs and add Kelly and we will have a pretty good midfield imo.

Midfield led by Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Kelly and Ed is a strong starting 5. Then we would expect our kids to improve and be able to play more game time in Cuningham, Pickett, sps, fisher and boek.

 

[PostPaolo]

Not such a fan of Polson, I'm assuming he'll be here in 2018 based on being a national draft but I don't think he's up to it. I don't know what others have seen that I haven't, saw him play school football in 2015 and 2016 and was hardly a standout in my opinion.

I would like to see a clear-out of our rookie list too.
Glass-McCasker by circumstance has a lot of other youngsters ahead of him in defence, and considering we would need to promote him I don't think he'll be retained.
Sheehan despite being plagued by injuries I don't think has shown enough when we saw him at senior level in 2017 to keep, he's 27 at the end of the year as well.
Gallucci hasn't seemed to threaten senior selection in his two years here.
Korchek I would like to see replaced with either a senior state league ruckman or a youngster out of the TAC at that 4th ruck spot.
A.Silvagni was certainly competent at senior level this season and is worth giving another year too.
LeBois upside is also worth continuing with in my opinion in 2018 as well.

 

[Cutz]

I cant name a player a present who may be able to come on next season and play a Thomas role. But I gave an example of players who were released 2016. I didnt include Dangerfield either. They are rare and valueable, I heard we made an offer to Lewis and he went elswhere. You mentioned Thomas probably wouldnt get a run anywhere else, Id say the suns and possible the bears would be keen for an experienced on field general, vant see them fighting for his services. You all so mention intagibles, or a greater intrinsic value, if you cant at least nullify your opponent any amount of pointing at the grass wont help, because you need help. That throws out the structure because your man doesnt have to worry about you unless your 20m from goal. Or, get creative, put rocket eade in a runners uniform and get him doing the nick maxwell role(gws). Teams can concentrate tactics for Gibbs, Murph and anyone else we have winning their position on the day. The mid fielders and such you mention surely have enough time now to study film, speak with coaches and sort that out. If they dont see you later. Hopefully Murph could be released from the inside role and quaterback the forward stucture as Kruz, curnow and cripps know what they are doing. Contracts mentioned because Thomas was brought in, at the time, as one of these high paid 'leaders' FA and if looking at wins and losses, he has failed. Weve lost good players from the club in his time here and I would think his bloated contract, would have played a part in what others thought they should earn. I dont mind him being around the club at all, but not as a fully contracted listed player. Looking forward, he may impede our chances signing a good free agent or hamper a rookies development. This year he may have had relevance, but I am just proposing we have given him plenty and if he is on the park as best 22 next year, we are in for more brave losses. He has had a fair go, he played with swannie and co at collingwood, so he couldve helped our rough diamonds but didnt seem to have an effect, and hasnt developed a winning culture. The disappontment leveled at murph and gibbs after every loss should include Thomas. But he escapes that scrutiny, its normally only his contract as you say, but he gets a pass on the leadership aspect, with VFL performance that will only decline even further. Come and play for CFC next year, we have Daisy here to show you the way! Unlikely.

This needs a paragraphs !

 

[Blue__Balls]

Not such a fan of Polson, I'm assuming he'll be here in 2018 based on being a national draft but I don't think he's up to it. I don't know what others have seen that I haven't, saw him play school football in 2015 and 2016 and was hardly a standout in my opinion.

I would like to see a clear-out of our rookie list too.
Glass-McCasker by circumstance has a lot of other youngsters ahead of him in defence, and considering we would need to promote him I don't think he'll be retained.
Sheehan despite being plagued by injuries I don't think has shown enough when we saw him at senior level in 2017 to keep, he's 27 at the end of the year as well.
Gallucci hasn't seemed to threaten senior selection in his two years here.
Korchek I would like to see replaced with either a senior state league ruckman or a youngster out of the TAC at that 4th ruck spot.
A.Silvagni was certainly competent at senior level this season and is worth giving another year too.
LeBois upside is also worth continuing with in my opinion in 2018 as well.

That's a new one...Polson won't make it based on his school footy form.

 

[Iamcarlton]

the average player is on $379k next year (or similar) including the 20 or so who dont play seniors regularly. not sure $400k is an overly generous offer. clubs concern would be length of contract. ideally we would offer $500k for 2. hopefully by then he is superseded. clearly levi will be looking for a longer term as this is his last big pay day. if we tabled that offer and he received a better offer elsewhere we would be in a position to gain the compensation that we require.

I agree with your thoughts as indicated in a previous message . However i think we are both swimming against a tsunami on the Casboult contract issue and the consensus .

 

[BigFrizz36]

I agree with your thoughts as indicated in a previous message . However i think we are both swimming against a tsunami on the Casboult contract issue and the consensus .

agreed but surely whether people are pro or anti levi it is imperitive that we engineer the best solution for both levi and the club.

 

[Abyss]

This is a lot of effort you're putting into one player - again, predominantly based on preconceived ideas about what he's been paid.

No. He hasnt performed well or consistently, commensurate to his contract. It is relevant because we let someone like betts go because we didnt want to pay their contracts. But we agreed it wasnt money well spent and its the past.

What we paid Daisy Thomas in 2015 or 2016 is irrelevant. What we potentially pay him in 2018 is the kicker. We can't turn over 15 blokes this year, despite the fact that we could probably name 15 that we'd want to cut. If we can replace 10, I doubt Daisy is in that group, which means he probably sticks around for another year on a heavily reduced wage.

Ok. No problems there other than, as you say, he is just sticking around.

This won't be because we expect him to win us games, and to suggest that his recruitment has been a failure based on our win/loss ratio over the last few years is extremely narrow-minded.

Why? Isnt that the point?

By the same logic we may as well delist Docherty.

Docherty is a role player, who has improved above expectation, is intelligent and beats his opponent more often than never. Wasnt brought in on big dollars as the messiah.

Daisy's input is measured on how his presence aids in the development and improvement of our players 21 and under. He could play a similar role as a coach, but then we're bringing in an 18 year old kid with Pick 90 and assuming that that will make us a better side. Silly.

I would take that chance, but not assume anything. Roll the dice nothing to lose.

It also assumes that all young players respond the same way to a coach as they do to a senior player. Also untrue.

Young players are influenced by many things. They will gravitate/mimic towards those around them that perform.Most of the new blokes wouldnt know of the Daisies succesful period and I would bet Crippa and the like cover that aspect.

Daisy is being treated as an extension of the coaching group within the playing group. It's an important role, and one that our other senior leaders are less inherently capable of performing based on their personality types.

Personality types can be managed. Thats 90's physcology (arousal states, extro and introvert etc) and is the same as saying a woman cant lead a business. But no problems with the mentor type role youre suggesting. But if youre opponent is pantsing you no point being a leader because its embarrasing for everyone and leads the door open for finding excuses for others to underperform.

Any good team plays to the strengths of it's members - so judge players on what they bring to the table.

Thats the point. More than likely your assesment of list turnover is correct, so he will be around. Enjoyed the discussion mate, you defended the man as well as our new CFC backline does

 

[therubbernub]

That's a new one...Polson won't make it based on his school footy form.

Injured. So perhaps thats why he didnt stand out?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

My dream trade scenario.

1. Apply and recieve priority pick = #18
2. Recieve Band 3 Compo for Casboult = #20
3. Trade Pick #1 to GWS for Kelly.

Call it there.

If Gibbs goes, take two first round picks for him. Or a pick and a player.

If Gibbs goes fire off our Priority Pick to GWS for Hopper.

Grab Balic with our 4th Round pick.

Hit the draft with 2-4 picks inside the top 20. Happy Days.

 

[Aphrodite]

Abyss paragraphs please.

Makes it easier to read your posts!

 

[Abyss]

Abyss paragraphs please.

Makes it easier to read your posts!

Ok no worries...new to this stuff, need an onboard mentor.

Lift, Abyss ffs

 

[Blue__Balls]

Ok no worries...new to this stuff, need an onboard mentor. Lift, abyss ffs

Terrible choice of mentor...

 

[Aphrodite]

Terrible choice of mentor...

 

[Blue__Balls]

Surely one of him is enough