Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[Blue Pulse]

Pretty sure the club has stated that they are planning for the future and not the W/L ratio at this stage. We are not just looking for guys who can play football, we are looking for guys with certain traits; competitive, hard workers, have pride and play for the club, jumper and team mates.
Waite would be a huge step backwards IMO.
They will lowball Casboult, if he decides to leave we will miss him short term but he will soon be forgotten. I have been a huge fan of his in the past but he is playing controlled football. No body on the line stuff because he cannot afford to get injured on a 1 year contract and fair enough. He looks like he can tear things apart but rarely does. He misses clutch goals and is not quick enough to get the hands out if needed.
He will be better in a better team where he is not relied upon and is not the main focal point as it will take the focus of him mentally.

 

[Azul]

What has 15 got to do with it?

15 was the number Lord Lucy said he'd delist.

 

[DangerousD]

Had great contracts and hardly got on the park. Sometimes not his fault.
When asked to take a little hair cut to help the team out as he had been well re-numerated for most of his career, cut and run.
Went to great lengths to point out Norths professionalism compared to what he was used to.
Eddie was shafted. Carlton tried to low ball him. Would have stayed for 100k a year less than what the Crows are paying him.
Rowe doesn't have Waite's talent but Curnow and McKay will have him covered in no time. Rowe can be a presence that can take some heat for them.

Fair call, i see Eddie and Waite as getting the same treatment. It doesn't surprise me that Jarred said that and i think it's true. Brett Ratten told a friend of mine the same thing once he got to the Hawks.

 

[Tushay]

Yesterday was yesterday.
Like I said, many don't like discussing their captain, but let's say that Marc won't be remembered as the most inspiring captain we've had.

A lot depends on the other players. Carlton teams have made some captains, and killed off others. MM came into the leadership role at a difficult time. On the weekend he led the possession count for us the pressure acts count across both teams. Tells me he's working super hard both ways.

 

[Robertio]

because he will be compared to Steve Kernahan, Jezza and John Nicholls to start with.

He's been the best captain and person that he could be. Well respected from within. I started watching Carlton 1964 and I'm well ware of those names you threw up but mate you got to support who ever they make captain.He lacks a bit of love on this board.

 

[StandByyourMan]

He's been the best captain and person that he could be. Well respected from within. I started watching Carlton 1964 and I'm well ware of those names you threw up but mate you got to support who ever they make captain.He lacks a bit of love on this board.

totally agree

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Based on 3 ok games?

Probably based on whether we will find better
You can delist a fringe player but he did play
Delisting and replacing with similar or lesser makes no sense I would have thought
But hey! That's just me

 

[I bleed Blue]

Might cop a bit of heat for this but I would like to see it.

IF Cas leaves and Nth don't offer Waite a deal I would like to see him back in Blue for a year to help out Charlie and H.

This is only if the club feel fwd support is needed whilst the other 2 develop.

It angers me how through the clubs poor management guys like Waite and Betts were pushed out.

This would align with Bikts wanting to connect to past players.

10-15 games would be ideal and I think he would be more dangerous than Cas.

Waite is finished. We should go after Goldstein. They have lost love for him, but he is a good ruckman and can kick goals. Would compliment Kruezer as they are both similar players and we could easily rest one in the forward line. Let's face it Phillips is not going to make it as he has not impact around the ground.
The others may develop but unlikely.

Hopefully Dusty will take North's offer of 1.5 million per season. In three years Norf will be playing out of Tasmania.

Goldy? Waite?

We should be into Ben Browns ear. He is out of contract next year. Would be a perfect fit for us.

 

[Soapy V]

15 was the number Lord Lucy said he'd delist.

Still don't think he will be far off. My guess is around 10-12. In the Gun

Graham Boekhurst Gorringe Smedts Thomas Jaksch Armfield Sumner Palmer plus Casboult & Maybe Gibbs off the main list

Korcheck Gallucci Sheehan & G-Mac off the Rookie List

As I have said it will depend a lot on what happens during Trade Week and whether we want to pay off some small contracts.


PS Just on Pure Footy, Daisy Thomas has been rated "poor" by Champion Data. Apparently lowest you can have based on Stats and effectiveness

 

[Wickzki]

Still don't think he will be far off. My guess is around 10-12. In the Gun

Graham Boekhurst Gorringe Smedts Thomas Jaksch Armfield Sumner Palmer plus Casboult & Maybe Gibbs off the main list

Korcheck Gallucci Sheehan & G-Mac off the Rookie List

As I have said it will depend a lot on what happens during Trade Week and whether we want to pay off some small contracts.


PS Just on Pure Footy, Daisy Thomas has been rated "poor" by Champion Data. Apparently lowest you can have based on Stats and effectiveness

The fact of the matter is we'll be pinching for trade bait this year outside of one (or two, if Adelaide get Gibbs to change his current status quo) marquee trades. Therefore, we'll have to see where can make small list upgrades without selling the farm to do it. Therefore, from my perspective much of what we do accomplish would be through delisted free agency. How many Matthew Wright type pickups can we make without giving up anything except for a delisting of a player whose not proven themselves up to it.

As we become a better club that players want to come to I think you'll find that we'll attract players who ask their current clubs to delist them to sign on. This year is perfect given that it's such a shallow draft. Other clubs are likely to be of the opinion that acquiring an additional third or fourth round draft selection isn't worth anything to them. Therefore, they'll either delist the player requesting to go to a club such as ours or they'll find a delist candidate in exchange that is worth a year.

I think you'll find that fringe AFL players like Nick Graham with runs on the board in the VFL may be preferable than a pick in the 40s or 50s this year. And if clubs dont want them then they'll clear a player for nothing as a DFA.

 

[KnobHead]

because he will be compared to Steve Kernahan, Jezza and John Nicholls to start with.

Those players had pretty formidable players to support them. Although Jezza was in a league of his own the way he turned the club around in the late 1970s (albeit i was drinking from a baby bottle at the time).

Murphy's first season as captain was 2013, when we finished 6th. He captained during the Malthouse years which everyone acknowledges MM was a disaster.

He's captained since Bolton came on board - Bolton and SOS get a lot of credit for putting Carlton on the right path, but Murphy don't get much love.

Not saying he's the greatest captain we've ever had, but he's been good & deserves a little more credit.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[thylacine60]

So this being the last round how soon are the first DCMs likely to occur?

 

[goreds]

Back to the "can't delist 15 players in a shallow draft with no 2nd round pick" and how many are ahead of him?

Good trade bait. Pretty sure there is a lad in Freo that would like to get back to Melbourne!

 

[Soapy V]

I think you'll find that fringe AFL players like Nick Graham with runs on the board in the VFL may be preferable than a pick in the 40s or 50s this year.

Totally disagree. A lot of people said the same thing last year. This is a very even draft and there will be gold late and even in the rookie draft. Guys like Graham have had their chances and simply aren't good enough. Tough decisions need to be made to try and improve the list. Hanging on to too many average players stagnates your development and potential depth. We still aren't that young and have enough mature and/or role players. 2 years into a 3 year rebuild and I expect SOS to still make the tough decisions and cut the list even further.

He's done a great job but it's nowhere near finished

 

[goreds]

Probably could do with its own thread but I will put it here as it relates to list management going forward...

2018 game style and the players we need...

Ok, we have the defence sorted for the next 8 years, in fact we are plus 1 in terms of Jones. He was certainly on the chopping block but now is ranked on the 3 top defenders on the AFL, fact. If he did this last year, SOS would have changed his recruiting strategy and gone after a mid last year...

So, game style 2018? Sideways or outside run or corridor football?

Without a GUN forward, corridor football will be hard as the ball rebounds too quickly and our defensive game gets broken down, so... Harry needs to step up and we need to find another power forward at all costs...

Midfield. Charlie has to play in around the centre ala Fyfe, he will be Kouta mark 2 with a cannon for a leg, long hard kicking.

Get Kelly. This is the number 1 priority but I think he will stay a Giant so we MUST find another as this draft has very little in the way of elite anything.

So, game style 2018 will shape our draftees for this year and next as will Big H and how good he will be...!

 

[Wickzki]

Totally disagree. A lot of people said the same thing last year. This is a very even draft and there will be gold late and even in the rookie draft.

Honestly, I hope that you're right. Unfortunately, the AFL scouts that I know don't share that opinion. They feel that it's an even draft but that's because there's a complete dearth of talent outside of the top 30 or so players who will make the grade. They claim they haven't seen anything like it. They feel that beyond those most of the kids will get lost at state league level.

 

[ODNBlue]

It's a bit testicle around here...

 

[Wickzki]

It's a bit testicle around here...

To be expected at this time of year, TBH.

Season is coming to an end and there's not a whole lot to discuss. Therefore, you either feed the circlejerk or you're against it.

Bring on the AFLW.

 

[BluesRule]

Good trade bait. Pretty sure there is a lad in Freo that would like to get back to Melbourne!

But is that Lad really better than Boek. Thought Boek had his best ever game on the weekend against the Hawks (except for a few scrubber kicks).

I think there will be around 10 list changes this year including trades, but I am really impressed how most players have improved in the second half of the year.

Good times ahead

 

[Big Red is back]

Honestly, I hope that you're right. Unfortunately, the AFL scouts that I know don't share that opinion. They feel that it's an even draft but that's because there's a complete dearth of talent outside of the top 30 or so players who will make the grade. They claim they haven't seen anything like it. They feel that beyond those most of the kids will get lost at state league level.

Reality is every draft has a dozen Graham types so prefer we take a punt on a pick in the 50s

 

[Big Red is back]

Would rather plonk Rowe down there if Cas leaves. Waite shat on a club that put up with plenty from him.

Not sure about that didn't North give him an extra year and as his age you just want to play as long a second you can

 

[BlueRenaissance]

100% disagree with based based on a few things.

1. Blaine has shown this year in the AFL and VFL that he has improved considerably compared to last year, last week being his best game (27 touches). Showing he hasn't peaked at all. IMO you don't cut guys who are still improving.

2. More importantly there are so many players before him to cut Buckly, Palmer, Goringe, Army, Galluci, Sumner, Korcheck, Sheehan, KJ, Graham. In a supposed weak draft where we don't have a 2nd round pick it would be bad to cut more than 9-10 guys.

3. Dispute that he is a bad kick and he is quite creative.

Agree maybe not 2 years but would be happy with 1. If he doesn't keep improving next year then its over. If he does again he gets a better deal.

I think what you miss is that there is a HUGE correlation between 1) contract renewal years and form, and 2) best form displayed prior to delistings. Graham is also displaying his best form in the VFL ever. Why do you think that is? Its our list manager's responsibility to see through these short term form spikes! Boekhurst has had his chance in not just AFL games but VFL games. He has been poor many a time in the VFL which is a huge drop. Guy is mugging you off for a new 300-400 payday before he reverts to who he is. That is a player out of his weight division...and I don't mean weight literally.

Murph (completely outside now and no other position suits), Williamson, SPS, Fisher can all spend time out on the wing next year.

I know we have a lot to delist. Only saving grace of your insight.

The new Carlton needs to see through these guys that turn up at death's door and show a little form. Even Bolton has said show consistency over the journey. Boek has not even been close over his time at Carlton. It's not even about possessions...aside from 2-3 games, he has shown no 'INTENT'.

 

[slashin_velvet]

But is that Lad really better than Boek. Thought Boek had his best ever game on the weekend against the Hawks (except for a few scrubber kicks).

I think there will be around 10 list changes this year including trades, but I am really impressed how most players have improved in the second half of the year.

Good times ahead

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...d2=9&type=A&pid1=4050&pid2=4197&fid1=C&fid2=C

 

[DamianBis]

I think what you miss is that there is a HUGE correlation between 1) contract renewal years and form, and 2) best form displayed prior to delistings. Graham is also displaying his best form in the VFL ever. Why do you think that is? Its our list manager's responsibility to see through these short term form spikes! Boekhurst has had his chance in not just AFL games but VFL games. He has been poor many a time in the VFL which is a huge drop. Guy is mugging you off for a new 300-400 payday before he reverts to who he is. That is a player out of his weight division...and I don't mean weight literally.

The thing you don't seem to realise is that boekhorst has shown more in those 3 games. than you would expect ANY player picked up after 50-60 in this draft.

Why pick up a player who is a 0.1% chance to make it when you have a player on your list that's a 1% chance to make it? Obviously chance of them making it is subjective, but if he can play like he did against hawthorn going forward. he's a best 22 player in our current team, and even going forward would be. why throw that away when you've got so much other deadwood.. and someone picked up at pick 120 in this years draft is less likely to show the traits of an AFL footballer than boekhorst has.

Opportunity cost of keeping him is so incredibly low it's not worth throwing him away.

 

[HARKER]

I'm not commenting on his captaincy he was the best man at the time. We weren't flush with options.
To compare his efforts with Boekhorst is not something I can see.

Didn't set out to target Murphy, as much to highlight that Boekhorst isn't the only player that tends to look for the easy way out, at times.
Anyway, I feel we've over-cooked this one already.

Just feel that Boekhorst has worked harder in the past 3 months than he has before. Why? There's likely a story there in itself.