Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

I would be extremelybhappybifvwe could nab Saad and Zack Jones

 

[G-TRAIN07]

Is Barass 100% right all the time?

Sometimes

 

[G-TRAIN07]

I still cant see the club NOT bringing in an age targeted FA this year ....

Same here. I don't think we are ready for that

 

[F_therest]

Would you guys be happy to trade pick #2-3 for Hopper & Kennedy/D Smith? I guess it depends how good this draft is at the top end, but atm i would do it.
2 talented young mids ready to contribute from day 1.

Is that too much in our favour? I think it's reasonable IF they both nominate us and GWS have their sights on someone at that pick.
They traded an awful lot to secure pick #2 to get Taranto last year.

For such a top pick there is a premium attached to it and GWS would probably prefer that than say, pick #12 for Hopper and #20 for Kennedy in separate deals...they don't need that, they want elite talent. Plus, from the midfield on the weekend, they still have Griffen, Coniglio & Setterfield waiting in the wings and Hopper didn't play...their midfield bats super deep.

 

[MitchRobinson12]

Can anyone update us with McKays VFL season so far preferably people who see him in the flesh?

Arguably our most important player.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Question, with the new EBA, do all existing contracts get adjusted accordingly in percentage terms?

If that isn't the case, and all clubs need to make up a $2m black hole, then I think that nullifies a lot of the good work that Silvagni has been doing to build up a future war chest of dollars with the front loaded contracts

Some players might have a clause in the contract which allows for an increase in salary in line with an increase in TPP the club can make. Suggest it's 1 or 2 players at most, not all clubs.
Quite a few players who are coming out of contract are holding off entering into a new contract until the increase is worked out, I saw a headline that Dan Rioli (Richmond) was one.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Would you guys be happy to trade pick #2-3 for Hopper & Kennedy/D Smith? I guess it depends how good this draft is at the top end, but atm i would do it.
2 talented young mids ready to contribute from day 1.

Is that too much in our favour? I think it's reasonable IF they both nominate us and GWS have their sights on someone at that pick.
They traded an awful lot to secure pick #2 to get Taranto last year.

For such a top pick there is a premium attached to it and GWS would probably prefer that than say, pick #12 for Hopper and #20 for Kennedy in separate deals...they don't need that, they want elite talent. Plus, from the midfield on the weekend, they still have Griffen, Coniglio & Setterfield waiting in the wings and Hopper didn't play...their midfield bats super deep.

Hopper and D Smith, and a draft pick coming back from GWS.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

I think Gibbs will be gone at the end of the year. SOS wasn't opposed to a trade last year, despite Adelaide thinking he was bluffing as to the picks required. If Adelaide really want him, they now know what it will take

And great that SOS works for us and doesn't cave in.

 

[Kismet]

And great that SOS works for us and doesn't cave in.

He was a hard bastard in his contract discussions (Wes Lofts was not a fan), and it seems he still is as our recruitment manager.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

We will need some senior hard bodies added this year.

Look for some more 30yo DFAs to be added to provide some veteran leadership/hard bodies.

I think 25-26yo like Matty Wright.
We have Kerridge for another year. Smedts too.
Palmer not good enough.

 

[BluesRule]

Why do we need Schache when we have McKay and Kerr developing nicely? Word is club is really happy with their progress. I'd rather Draft another gun midfielder and save the coin that Schache is asking on a free agent.

Kind of agree but still impatient for a KPF to emerge for us. Casboult has stepped up but is a 2nd tall/ruck option only.

I really like what I am seeing of Kerr and McKay in the VFL highlights packages. Both running hard, marking well and kicking goals. Hope they can step up to AFL level later this season so Charlie can become another midfield/wing option. Lets give them a shot before we eliminate Schache from our trade in options.

Must be so frustrating for the team to lack that key forward presence (since Fev).

 

[Arr0w]

1. So you're saying that we won't be contesting for a premiership before 2021, or that they have an expiration date at 30? Correct, I believe we will be in contention for the 8, in 2020, so the premiership window MIGHT start from then on. So in 2021 both Kreuzer and Gibbs will be 32 not 30

2. Take that to mean I think we should be offering him a contract worthy of band 2 compensation. You really need to let this go. If Kreuzer or Casboult decide to leave, the compensation will be based on what contract they sign. Has absolutely nothing to do, with the contract we offer them. Having said that, if they decide to stay, I would be comfortable with that.

3. Then that trade period needs to generate something that can be immediately injected into our midfield and be ready to smash it from 2019 onwards. A bonafide elite senior midfielder. I am sure it will generate list management decisions, based on the theory of our current rebuild strategy. If Gibbs is traded, I am confident that we will add a couple of senior bodies in the 20-23 year old bracket

4. Who else have we got then? Murphy and Cripps? Weitering and SPS aren't there yet, but they're both good chances. We need a core group that strikes fear into teams. Hawthorn had Buddy, Roughead, Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell that they built around. Geelong had Selwood, Ablett, Scarlett, Bartel and Taylor. Without Gibbs and Kreuzer, who will our five be? This is where your argument is flawed. Let's take your Hawthorn example, Buddy, Roughead and Lewis were all drafted, they were not retained FA's. Yes Hodge and Mitchell were there, as will Murphy, Simpson and other senior players

I mean look, it doesn't have to be 5 if there's a good spread of quality, but we cannot just chuck Gibbs out the door for nothing, and Kreuzer is of even more structural importance considering our current stocks.

No one has said that we let Gibbs go for unders, but what we don't want is for him to finish his contract then leave as a free agent, as the compensation will be a lot less than what we could obtain at the end of this year. Kreuzer would be a loss if he decided to leave, but perhaps you should study other clubs lists, as there are a number of ruckman that could fill that void

As I have mention previously, love the passion on our board, but we need to stop looking at the short term.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Is Barass 100% right all the time?

60% of the time, he's right all the time.

 

[DangerousD]

I get that this Barass character has had some good mail but people who use his opinion to refute others comments are like students who reference Wikipedia

 

[El Topo]

I'm not sure what you are looking for. North, like the other 16 teams in the competition, are irrelevant. Carlton is our team. The rest are just....the rest.

And you know what we say about the rest...

 

[Golden Tonsils]

Can anyone update us with McKays VFL season so far preferably people who see him in the flesh?

Arguably our most important player.

I have been tracking the kids at VFL

Harry Mac played his best game last Sunday albeit in a praccy match against Werribee, what stood out for me was his work he did in tandem with Paddy Kerr, once both transition into AFL football we will all be pleasantly surprised

 

[Sector 7G]

I have been tracking the kids at VFL

Harry Mac played his best game last Sunday albeit in a praccy match against Werribee, what stood out for me was his work he did in tandem with Paddy Kerr, once both transition into AFL football we will all be pleasantly surprised

People say it was only a practice match, but the reality is that all VFL matches are practice for playing in the 1st. The results are not of great importance. I think it is time to give him a taste. GWS don't have the strongest key defenders though supply might be an issue.

 

[Jimmae]

1. Correct, I believe we will be in contention for the 8, in 2020, so the premiership window MIGHT start from then on. So in 2021 both Kreuzer and Gibbs will be 32 not 30

Show me a successful 5-year rebuild in the draft era. Just one. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I think you'll be surprised about what you find.

Between our own club statements of a 66-game turnaround and the Doggies' premiership push, what exactly didn't you grasp that makes you think we'll be treading water in 2019?

This is where your argument is undeniably flawed.

2. You really need to let this go. If Kreuzer or Casboult decide to leave, the compensation will be based on what contract they sign. Has absolutely nothing to do, with the contract we offer them. Having said that, if they decide to stay, I would be comfortable with that.

You're the one arguing semantics.

3. I am sure it will generate list management decisions, based on the theory of our current rebuild strategy. If Gibbs is traded, I am confident that we will add a couple of senior bodies in the 20-23 year old bracket

That's not good enough, and you know that. We cannot be a conveyor belt for talent without getting a net return on our investment, and Adelaide haven't looked like offering that.

If they want one of our top 3 or 5 players, they need to be prepared to give us one big-ticket item in a bigger trade, whether that be a significant senior player or a draft pick that they probably won't have.

4. This is where your argument is flawed. Let's take your Hawthorn example, Buddy, Roughead and Lewis were all drafted, they were not retained FA's. Yes Hodge and Mitchell were there, as will Murphy, Simpson and other senior players

As I said in a follow-up post: what age were those players in 2012? That rebuild started in the 2009 off-season, unless you think Hawthorn had an 10 year window.

No one has said that we let Gibbs go for unders, but what we don't want is for him to finish his contract then leave as a free agent, as the compensation will be a lot less than what we could obtain at the end of this year. Kreuzer would be a loss if he decided to leave, but perhaps you should study other clubs lists, as there are a number of ruckman that could fill that void

As I have mention previously, love the passion on our board, but we need to stop looking at the short term.

No one would say that about the Gibbs trade, it's the valuation of Gibbs that has me dismayed at how people think trading works. Adelaide have to make a huge offer or it's not worth our time.

I've studied other clubs lists, and it would take an insane turn of events for us to wind up with a ruck even close to the quality of Kreuzer, current or future. It would be a shakedown of epic proportions for us to make bank on him leaving. Who did you have in mind? Billy Longer? Preuss? Archie Smith? Brodie Smith? Bleh, meh, maybe and good luck.

I'm firmly in the medium-term view of things, which allows you to keep players, coaches and staff on the hook while you build assets and look to make hard and fast moves when the opportunity arises. We've got a chance to really hammer the GWS list this off-season, and I sincerely doubt Gibbs or Kreuzer would walk away from that if they thought it pulled the pin out from the bottom of the effort.

Gibbs has to turn into something close to the level of Kelly, and Kreuzer has to be band 1, or we're throwing away opportunities and building the next Melbourne.

 

[Arr0w]

Show me a successful 5-year rebuild in the draft era. Just one. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I think you'll be surprised about what you find.

Between our own club statements of a 66-game turnaround and the Doggies' premiership push, what exactly didn't you grasp that makes you think we'll be treading water in 2019?

This is where your argument is undeniably flawed.


You're the one arguing semantics.


That's not good enough, and you know that. We cannot be a conveyor belt for talent without getting a net return on our investment, and Adelaide haven't looked like offering that.

If they want one of our top 3 or 5 players, they need to be prepared to give us one big-ticket item in a bigger trade, whether that be a significant senior player or a draft pick that they probably won't have.


As I said in a follow-up post: what age were those players in 2012? That rebuild started in the 2009 off-season, unless you think Hawthorn had an 10 year window.



No one would say that about the Gibbs trade, it's the valuation of Gibbs that has me dismayed at how people think trading works. Adelaide have to make a huge offer or it's not worth our time.

I've studied other clubs lists, and it would take an insane turn of events for us to wind up with a ruck even close to the quality of Kreuzer, current or future. It would be a shakedown of epic proportions for us to make bank on him leaving. Who did you have in mind? Billy Longer? Preuss? Archie Smith? Brodie Smith? Bleh, meh, maybe and good luck.

I'm firmly in the medium-term view of things, which allows you to keep players, coaches and staff on the hook while you build assets and look to make hard and fast moves when the opportunity arises. We've got a chance to really hammer the GWS list this off-season, and I sincerely doubt Gibbs or Kreuzer would walk away from that if they thought it pulled the pin out from the bottom of the effort.

Gibbs has to turn into something close to the level of Kelly, and Kreuzer has to be band 1, or we're throwing away opportunities and building the next Melbourne.

Mate I value your opinions, but tailoring your responses on the exceptions to the rule, is not in my venacular

Sure we will see what takes place at year's end and beyond

 

[beej12]

Can anyone update us with McKays VFL season so far preferably people who see him in the flesh?

Arguably our most important player.

He is tracking quite well! And as mentioned probably had his best game on the weekend.

However I doubt he will be getting a game off just the one performance because I'm sure Bolton will want to see a good block of form not just the one good game.

A couple of concerns for H has been the fact he doesn't push up the ground as much as he should and needs to. His best games have been when he has pushed up the ground and taken more marks on the wings.
He also tends to just stand a kick away from the ball and put his hand up for players to kick it on his head rather then leading at the ball carrier. I know this is one of the concerns Josh Fraser has for him because if he was to do that in the AFL he would just get pummelled by 2 or 3 defenders.
The other slight concern he has is he goes to ground easily for a big fella which results in him being out of the contest if he doesn't mark the ball.

Seen him play each of his VFL matches aside from the match against Sandi. Love the look of him and will be a good player for us after a another pre season or two


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jimmae]

Mate I value your opinions, but tailoring your responses on the exceptions to the rule, is not in my venacular

Sure we will see what takes place at year's end and beyond

I'm not even trying to suggest that we can repeat Hawthorn's effort; they had a lot of systemic issues fall in their favour, and a lot of stupid clubs that pandered to them.

What I'm saying is that the idea of Gibbs and Kreuzer being around for our window makes sense. It won't be as long a window as Hawthorn's 2012-2017, but it won't be too long before another window comes around again if we play it smart.

Right now we benefit heavily from GWS' list establishment concessions, and we need to ensure during this dreamy little transition of both their list and top 10 draft picks holding immense value, that we use this opportunity to play catch-up on a list that desperately needed it.

As I see it, that's now an 18-month window at most, and if we short change ourselves losing Gibbs and Kreuzer, I don't see how we'll have made enough ground to win anything of substance without making as many as half a dozen players of quality (note: not necessarily elite) turn their heads and force clubs' hands.

 

[Arr0w]

I'm not even trying to suggest that we can repeat Hawthorn's effort; they had a lot of systemic issues fall in their favour, and a lot of stupid clubs that pandered to them.

What I'm saying is that the idea of Gibbs and Kreuzer being around for our window makes sense. It won't be as long a window as Hawthorn's 2012-2017, but it won't be too long before another window comes around again if we play it smart.

Right now we benefit heavily from GWS' list establishment concessions, and we need to ensure during this dreamy little transition of both their list and top 10 draft picks holding immense value, that we use this opportunity to play catch-up on a list that desperately needed it.

As I see it, that's now an 18-month window at most, and if we short change ourselves losing Gibbs and Kreuzer, I don't see how we'll have made enough ground to win of substance without making as many as half a dozen players of quality (note: not necessarily elite) turn their heads and force clubs' hands.

So we are both clear, Hawks rebuild started in 2004 when they got Buddy, Roughhead and Lewis. Yes they were lucky to win one in 2008 ahead of time, then taking another 6 years to win another one

As you are well aware, rebuilds, could take 3-6 years before making finals. Once you make the finals, premiership windows generally only last 5 years unless you are at the top of the tree with list management

 

[RudyBlue]

Sometimes

There's things Barass knows he knows, things he knows he doesn't know, and, of course, things he doesn't know he doesn't know.

 

[Wickzki]

He was a hard bastard in his contract discussions (Wes Lofts was not a fan), and it seems he still is as our recruitment manager.

Ain't that the truth. I still remember fearing those Silvagni to Melbourne rumors from back in the day. They had much more legs than Braddles and Sticks returning to SA ever did. SOS could leverage his value like nobody else. This was back before player agents truly ruled the roost though Nixon was up and about.

 

[Wickzki]

As you are well aware, rebuilds, could take 3-6 years before making finals. Once you make the finals, premiership windows generally only last 5 years unless you are at the top of the tree with list management

Alternatively, you could get bloody lucky like the Dogs and Cats did with father-son recruitment. It can't happen nearly as easily as what it did for them but it can still happen.

We'll at least have Jack and Ben. Is there anyone else that we're possibly going after?