Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2

[BlueRenaissance]

Caddy, Hoskin-Elliot, Melksham, Gray, De-Goey, Greene, etc. etc.

Think this misses the point. Despite Richmond gaining Caddy and using him they have drafted how many pressing small forwards recently that play a specfic 'important' role: Rioli, Butler, Castagna, & Bolton. They also have Edwards.

 

[Stamos]

Think this misses the point. Despite Richmond gaining Caddy and using him they have drafted how many pressing small forwards recently that play a specfic 'important' role: Rioli, Butler, Castagna, & Bolton. They also have Edwards.

Yeah, but Caddy is the best of them, and he was a mid

 

[BlueRenaissance]

This is were I find it staggering. If a guy like Polson, was playing VFL for 2 years, like Butler, the development is of a similar nature level wise. Polson is playing at a level that others weren't.

I think then taking your view on balance you cant say anything about any young player ever in their first three years. Because they can all play VFL for 2-3 years. Which means we end up with lots of list cloggers (our recent past).

 

[Arr0w]

Different eras with different TOGs.

Far more instructive comparing like-for-like players from other teams.

Classic you trying to get me to do the research - again

No research, I am actually waiting for you to offer up any facts, after teeing off on other posters for doing exactly what you are.

Okay so I take it you are conceding Simpson had much lower out put in his first 11 games, so your theory as to the worst footballer based on stats is clearly wrong

Here is another one for you, after Polson, and apart from Ronke, can you name me another small forward, that has considerable better output than Polson?

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Yeah, but Caddy is the best of them, and he was a mid

I cant argue with that Stamos!

 

[Bostonian]

Because he wasn't ready to compete at the level perhaps? Late pick, small frame player, needing development?

Because that's how teams used their benches.

Simmo played 6 games in his first two seasons, 3 in each season, he was dropped after a few games poor games in both.

The two players aren't comparable in any way.

 

[Arr0w]

I think then taking your view on balance you cant say anything about any young player ever in their first three years. Because they can all play VFL for 2-3 years. Which means we end up with lots of list cloggers (our recent past).

Not at all, some, that are more highly fancied, picked earlier, show more

Doubt there are many that were selected after Polson that you would say have cemented themselves in the AFL. List of players that were selected after Polson.

Quinton Narkle
Tom Williamson
Matthew Signorello
Dylan Clarke
Dion Johnstone
Pat Kerr
Luke Ryan
Brad Scheer
Timm House
Ryan Abbott
Fergus Greene
Corey Lyons
Ryan Garthwaite
Nick Larkey
Harry Morrison
Ben Davis
Mitchell Lewis
Jake Waterman

 

[Arr0w]

Because that's how teams used their benches.

Simmo played 6 games in his first two seasons, 3 in each season, he was dropped after a few games poor games in both.

The two players aren't comparable in any way.

Stop cherry picking and look at his first 11 games, not 6

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Not at all, some, that are more highly fancied, picked earlier, show more

Doubt there are many that were selected after Polson that you would say have cemented themselves in the AFL. List of players that were selected after Polson.

Quinton Narkle
Tom Williamson
Matthew Signorello
Dylan Clarke
Dion Johnstone
Pat Kerr
Luke Ryan
Brad Scheer
Timm House
Ryan Abbott
Fergus Greene
Corey Lyons
Ryan Garthwaite
Nick Larkey
Harry Morrison
Ben Davis
Mitchell Lewis
Jake Waterman

This is a redirection onto another topic. Have you been talking to Gethel.

 

[Arr0w]

This is a redirection onto another topic. Have you been talking to Gethel.

Not redirecting at all. Some players take longer to develop, so why would you call them list cloggers if they are at the lower levels for 2-3 years

 

[Blue and Blue]

All this comparing is such a waste of time. And why spend so much time belittling those who are wearing the navy blue.
Either Cam Polson or whoever is current whipping boy makes it or he doesnt.
End of argument.

 

[La Dispute]

No research, I am actually waiting for you to offer up any facts, after teeing off on other posters for doing exactly what you are.

Okay so I take it you are conceding Simpson had much lower out put in his first 11 games, so your theory as to the worst footballer based on stats is clearly wrong

Here is another one for you, after Polson, and apart from Ronke, can you name me another small forward, that has considerable better output than Polson?

You keep groggily missing my assertion, so I'll re-state it again: Polson is one of the worst players currently getting a game in the AFL, and likely the worst player to have played 11 or more games this year.

Simpson was an anomaly and played in a different era. I'd be interested in seeing how many players from the past few years have kicked on after averaging 7 touches in their second season.

Small forwards with considerably better output (total goals, avg disposals) from 11 games

Daniel Menzel - 25, 11 disposals
Jeff Garlett - 18, 12 disposals
Charlie Cameron - 17, 13 disposals
Cam Polson - 1, 7 disposals

Keeping in mind the primary KPI of a small forward is goals kicked that looks appalling on Polson's end.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Not redirecting at all. Some players take longer to develop, so why would you call them list cloggers if they are at the lower levels for 2-3 years

Because it is important to identify what we can move forward with quickly on a small list of 40 odd players. Graham comes to mind right now as a good example of time wasted. The 'skill' is in early identification.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

All this comparing is such a waste of time. And why spend so much time belittling those who are wearing the navy blue.
Either Cam Polson or whoever is current whipping boy makes it or he doesnt.
End of argument.

No one questioned Sticks, Wayne Hughes et al for how many years? You can hide your head in the sand if you want to. Two of my sons cant be arsed supporting Carlton due to the years of shiteness. I'm hanging on to the last kid.

 

[Blue and Blue]

No one questioned Sticks, Wayne Hughes et al for how many years? You can hide your head in the sand if you want to. Two of my sons cant be arsed supporting Carlton due to the years of shiteness. I'm hanging on to the last kid.

What nonsense my good man. I just fail to see how complaining in this realm is questioning anyone anywhere.
Player x may or may not make it thats a simple fact and is all I said. Nothing written here will change a thing.
As to your sons, kids will always do what they wish.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

What nonsense my good man. I just fail to see how complaining in this realm is questioning anyone anywhere.
Player x may or may not make it thats a simple fact and is all I said. Nothing written here will change a thing.
As to your sons, kids will always do what they wish.

Taking everything else aside for a second. This is a football forum where the point is to discuss the merits of players and teams. Providing a view on whether Polson is worth a spot on our list is the point of this forum.

If not, what else you got to say here?

 

[Bostonian]

Stop cherry picking and look at his first 11 games, not 6

I'm not cherry picking, I'm comparing seasons one and two.

Simpson's performances didn't warrant any more games than he played in his first two seasons.

Polson on the other hand has received far more games after rather low standard performances than any other player this season I can recall.

Watching those performances people are just scratching their heads as to why a player is still being picked. It's not obvious at all the answer.





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[ray8182]

I think then taking your view on balance you cant say anything about any young player ever in their first three years. Because they can all play VFL for 2-3 years. Which means we end up with lots of list cloggers (our recent past).

Young afl draftees typically take a few years to develop. There are variations on this. Some come on quick, others slower. Some are cut after 2 years. But on average l think it takes longer than you are suggesting.

The skill is recognising the ones who need more time but will continue to develop and become good footballers.

Polson currently has zero composure with the football. Either rushes the disposal or holds onto it too long. The list manager obviously thinks there’s a lot to work with and that more time is needed to see what Polson can actually do.



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[BlueRenaissance]

In the current AFL landscape everyone is going hard at it. SoS had to answer to the media. Bolton is having to think about his game plan. Bombers scapegoated on Neeld. Saints looking at their assistants as not up to it. The analysis in the wider AFL is brutal and direct.

Players are not excused.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Young afl draftees typically take a few years to develop. There are variations on this. Some come on quick, others slower. But on average l think it takes longer than you are suggesting.

The skill is recognising the ones who need more time but will continue to develop and become good footballers.

Poison currently has zero composure with the football. Either rushes the disposal or holds onto it too long. The list manager obviously thinks there’s a lot to work with and that Polson just needs time.



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Agree. I'm just keep thinking of Graham. Zero composure his whole life and still on our list.

 

[Bostonian]

Poison currently has zero composure with the football. Either rushes the disposal or holds onto it too long. The list manager obviously thinks there’s a lot to work with and that Polson just needs time.

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Which is why most teams give kids 1-2 games to see how they cope and how they contribute. If they don't play well they drop them back to the next level to work on things and see how they respond to being dropped.

There's not another younger player in the AFL that's had such a minimal impact during games that's managed to have such a long stretch of games as this lad.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Taking everything else aside for a second. This is a football forum where the point is to discuss the merits of players and teams. Providing a view on whether Polson is worth a spot on our list is the point of this forum.

If not, what else you got to say here?

I just dont buy into taking anonymous potshots at the players. That is what I have to say. I am well aware what the forum is for and this thread being what it is but seriously the Polson thing has been done to death. Hence why I say either he makes it or doesnt. I hope it clicks for him as he tries real hard. Of course its brutal and he may get cut but the coaches must see something worth persevering with.

 

[La Dispute]

Every single small forward who played last weekend outperformed Polson in their second year. The best he can hope for is to become Alex Sexton.

Avg disposals/avg goals
Callum Ah Chee - 11.4, 0.9
Alex Sexton - 7.0, 0.8
Jed Lamb - 10.5, 0.8
Daniel Rioli - 10.8, 1.0
Robbie Gray - 13.4, 1.4
Stephen Motlop - 8.8, 0.5
Daniel Menzel - 12.8, 1.5
Michael Walters - 14.7, 1.3
Will Hayward - 11.8, 1.4
Tom Papley - 15.9, 1.6
Jack Lonie - 10.5, 1.0
Jack Sinclair - 12.6, 0.4
Jamie Cripps - 9.8, 0.8
Eddie Betts - 10.9, 1.0
Kayne Turner - 8.9, 0.6
Cam Polson - 6.9, 0.1

I originally had Breust, Puopolo, Ballantyne, Hannan but they were mature-age recruits so I took them out. Naturally their stats were also better. I also didn't include guys like Billings who are more flankers who rotate onto a wing than pure small forwards.

Polson actually reminds me of one of those small forwards that around in St Kilda's forwardline circa 2011-2014: Minchington, Templeton, Saad, Milera etc. Had a bit of flair and exuberance but just not the talent to really make a fist of it.

Godspeed Cam.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

You keep groggily missing my assertion, so I'll re-state it again: Polson is one of the worst players currently getting a game in the AFL, and likely the worst player to have played 11 or more games this year.

Simpson was an anomaly and played in a different era. I'd be interested in seeing how many players from the past few years have kicked on after averaging 7 touches in their second season.

Small forwards with considerably better output (total goals, avg disposals) from 11 games

Daniel Menzel - 25, 11 disposals
Jeff Garlett - 18, 12 disposals
Charlie Cameron - 17, 13 disposals
Cam Polson - 1, 7 disposals

Keeping in mind the primary KPI of a small forward is goals kicked that looks appalling on Polson's end.

i would say that equal of the goals is pressure for a small forward these days and he's the best at it that we have. Wright is the best small forward on the list but he's way too slow and picket is a winger. the fact that polson has played so many games with such little output is primarily because our small forward depth might be the worst any club has ever had at any position ever.

 

[Blues90]

Agree. I'm just keep thinking of Graham. Zero composure his whole life and still on our list.

And I agree but graham is 24 my thought is if we draft them at 18 unless they dont even perform well in the 2s they have till they are 23 to show something

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