Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion

[F_therest]

Richmond brought in half of that side in the same period they brought in those small forwards, Geelong have brought in 2/3 of their current side over the last 4 years; both sides brought in players that play all over the ground. Collingwood brought in their two tall forwards pretty much last and now a new FB with a very young CHB. They are about the opposite though as they really only have one in Stephenson and sometimes Varcoe who actually play like small forwards.
I think we just see it from the complete opposite angle. I see them transforming and completely vital to sides like West Coast to become premiership sides and leaves teams like GWS who haven’t had good ones short when it really matters. Personally I think it’s completely plausible to suggest GWS have missed out on a couple of flags because they done what you are suggesting and when they tried (Pickett) it failed.

You are arguing different points.

No one is saying they aren't vital...yes they did transform the Eagles, Richmond and Collingwood. And yes one of GWS' weaknesses is their lack of small forwards. I agree with you there.

Aren't we arguing the order of getting different types of players in though time wise? The club is open about chasing small forwards, so we aren't going to miss out like GWS did. We are addressing the area of need just as we're primed to rise up the ladder and the KPP's/mids are mature enough.

 

[Soapy V]

I think Stocker covers one of Simpson or Thomas. SPS has shown he can go back there. Willow if he gets fit. Maybe one small defender would be worth chasing if available.

Stocker will be a gun mid IMO.

Defence we have Docherty Williamson Newman SPS Schumacher and I'd add a FA like Ellis. Plowman has done well on small forwards as well. I'd also give Polson a go as a small defender.

If we think we need a small defensive stopper I'd still look at Mason Blakey.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I think Stocker covers one of Simpson or Thomas. SPS has shown he can go back there. Willow if he gets fit. Maybe one small defender would be worth chasing if available.

Thinking more along the line of be able to cover the dangerous smalls of the competition that most sides now have many of, Stocker maybe short term but might struggle on the small quick forwards, will move into the midfield as soon as his endurance improves. SPS looks a comfortable fit down there like to see how he handles the dangerous forwards head to head certainly has great natural instincts to do well on them, Willo jmo probably more plays on the medium forwards and Simmo and Daisy doing great jobs but will need to be replaced if not this year next, not only are we very thin on our small forwards on our list the small defenders are in the same boat as well...

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Pass, they are just ordinary players and that is what you get if you don't rebuild properly. Ordinary players in key important positions.

Good small forwards and ruckmen, you can get them without paying a mint for them (draft picks and salary). You want to get good mids and good key position players, that's when you start talking huge salaries, multiple early draft picks. Draft them yourself and it's a hell of a lot cheaper and you get to the end of the rebuild like we are coming to and you will actually have something in the bank (picks and salary cap) to play with when filling the final holes.

It's completely the wrong thing to do to take small forwards ahead of key position players and mids when you need them. Even ahead of good small defenders.

A team with good small forwards that has no salary cap room, shallow midfield full of second rate players and lacking talls with the holes filled with second rate talls. We tried that, didn't work out so well.

Always take a KPP if you need them and if available but it’s no coincidence that Hawthorn had the best small forwards in the comp in their three peat. They also brought in their ruck and their two KPD right at the end.
WC are about the only recent premiership side who hasn’t just recently brought in KPP’s before winning the flag.
Richmond showed that the game has changed and small forwards are absolutely vital in winning premierships (Hawthorn too) it’s absolutely no coincidence the most talented side in the comp who’s only weakness has been small forwards haven’t won a premiership.
About the price they will cost, Small forwards like Papley, Cameron ect don’t come cheap if you don’t recruit them yourself.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You are arguing different points.

No one is saying they aren't vital...yes they did transform the Eagles, Richmond and Collingwood. And yes one of GWS' weaknesses is their lack of small forwards. I agree with you there.

Aren't we arguing the order of getting different types of players in though time wise? The club is open about chasing small forwards, so we aren't going to miss out like GWS did. We are addressing the area of need just as we're primed to rise up the ladder and the KPP's/mids are mature enough.

What I’m saying is when your biggest need is a small forward you try to get one, we may do what I think West Coast and GWS have done and wait too long and miss your chance. For me having 1 good small forward is ten times more important than having and chasing a sixth good midfielder when you can easily find a role player to play a role. You end up drafting good midfielders to play on flanks and in pockets where they are only so so at when you could’ve had a gun in that position.

 

[gbatman]

Always take a KPP if you need them and if available but it’s no coincidence that Hawthorn had the best small forwards in the comp in their three peat. They also brought in their ruck and their two KPD right at the end.
WC are about the only recent premiership side who hasn’t just recently brought in KPP’s before winning the flag.
Richmond showed that the game has changed and small forwards are absolutely vital in winning premierships (Hawthorn too) it’s absolutely no coincidence the most talented side in the comp who’s only weakness has been small forwards haven’t won a premiership.
About the price they will cost, Small forwards like Papley, Cameron ect don’t come cheap if you don’t recruit them yourself.

Hawthorn filled up on key position players and mids. They took their small forwards very late in their rebuild. They are a prime example of what I am saying. Yeah rucks are another you can bring in late, there are always more competent rucks in the league than there are spots.

Hawthorn didn't bring in Lake, Frawley and McEvoy during their rebuild, they had already won premierships beforehand. They took advantage of getting there first, becoming a massive destination club and taking advantage of some of the new rules like free agency. They still had to rebuild get there first.

West Coast won the last premiership with a plethora of key position players and showed that the game has not really changed all that much. Richmond have the best key position forward in the game, made up for a bit. Small forwards are important but it is not necessary to have them early, it's been proven again and again and again that you can bring in small forwards late in a rebuild. It's unnecessary and really really crap list building to take small forwards who develop early and are not hard to find or expensive to acquire when you need key position players and need midfielders and they are available to you.

Papley will take a first rounder which we can and should be willing to spare. Boyd took pick 6 and one of the dogs best players at the time. Charlie Cameron took pick 12. Dylan Shiel took two first round picks as good mids usually do.

Good mids cost you either a lot of money or two first round picks or both. Good key position players are similar, depending on quality. Good small forwards cost less money and less picks.

So you're saying it's not a good thing that we haven't followed what the real good clubs have done and bring in the small forwards last. That we bring in the slower to develop and more expensive players later and the quick to develop players earlier. That we develop our list so when it gets to the part where we fill holes with senior players they are the more expensive types that cost more money and cost more picks.

Gotta say I'm glad we are rebuilding with the order and good tactics we have been so the above doesn't apply to us. I'm glad we have done it so our list matures at the same time and most of the mature players we have to bring in when the time comes (now) are players who mostly won't cost multiple picks (which will waste time) and assets we could spend better.

We have the picks and the cap space we need to get what we want now, we just need to get those players. We have the cap and picks to land Coniglio, Papley and maybe more and fill our holes and this would mean we are more than on schedule.

We are in a position where we have holes. Having holes is unavoidable because of the enormity of our rebuild and where we are in it. We are in a position where we can fix our holes through the draft, trade and free agency because of how we have rebuilt. We don't need more talls, we hopefully don't need many more mids or defenders, we need the cheapest easiest players to acquire which means our rebuild will be quicker and more successful and there is a greater chance of getting the players we need.

We could be the other way and have more mids and talls to get and not much time to get them. Rules out the draft. Means we are going to have to pay a lot more to get what we want and may not necessarily be able to get them, at least not at the quality we want.

 

[Blutopia]

Hawthorn filled up on key position players and mids. They took their small forwards very late in their rebuild. They are a prime example of what I am saying. Yeah rucks are another you can bring in late, there are always more competent rucks in the league than there are spots.

Hawthorn didn't bring in Lake, Frawley and McEvoy during their rebuild, they had already won premierships beforehand. They took advantage of getting there first, becoming a massive destination club and taking advantage of some of the new rules like free agency. They still had to rebuild get there first.

West Coast won the last premiership with a plethora of key position players and showed that the game has not really changed all that much. Richmond have the best key position forward in the game, made up for a bit. Small forwards are important but it is not necessary to have them early, it's been proven again and again and again that you can bring in small forwards late in a rebuild. It's unnecessary and really really crap list building to take small forwards who develop early and are not hard to find or expensive to acquire when you need key position players and need midfielders and they are available to you.

Papley will take a first rounder which we can and should be willing to spare. Boyd took pick 6 and one of the dogs best players at the time. Charlie Cameron took pick 12. Dylan Shiel took two first round picks as good mids usually do.

Good mids cost you either a lot of money or two first round picks or both. Good key position players are similar, depending on quality. Good small forwards cost less money and less picks.

So you're saying it's not a good thing that we haven't followed what the real good clubs have done and bring in the small forwards last. That we bring in the slower to develop and more expensive players later and the quick to develop players earlier. That we develop our list so when it gets to the part where we fill holes with senior players they are the more expensive types that cost more money and cost more picks.

Gotta say I'm glad we are rebuilding with the order and good tactics we have been so the above doesn't apply to us. I'm glad we have done it so our list matures at the same time and most of the mature players we have to bring in when the time comes (now) are players who mostly won't cost multiple picks (which will waste time) and assets we could spend better.

We have the picks and the cap space we need to get what we want now, we just need to get those players. We have the cap and picks to land Coniglio, Papley and maybe more and fill our holes and this would mean we are more than on schedule.

We are in a position where we have holes. Having holes is unavoidable because of the enormity of our rebuild and where we are in it. We are in a position where we can fix our holes through the draft, trade and free agency because of how we have rebuilt. We don't need more talls, we hopefully don't need many more mids or defenders, we need the cheapest easiest players to acquire which means our rebuild will be quicker and more successful and there is a greater chance of getting the players we need.

We could be the other way and have more mids and talls to get and not much time to get them. Rules out the draft. Means we are going to have to pay a lot more to get what we want and may not necessarily be able to get them, at least not at the quality we want.

Spot on gbatman.
Like x 5.

 

[Blues_fest]

Rance, Jeremy McGovern and Harris Andrews are stars also. If we brought them all in for our draft picks last year it'd still be a misallocation of draft picks and cap space.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the Mitch McGovern error.

He may very well end up a star. But would you rather Papley or him right now?

Totally disagree. I’m in the minority but I love the McGovern trade.

If you see my posting history I’m all about players that would rather die than lose.. so my stance on Mitch seems contradictory...

But what I can see with him is extreme competitiveness in games and with opponents. He’s always blocking, pushing, scragging

He’s a footballer first, athlete second, training lover tenth...

This year his body hasn’t been able to do what he needs, but I’m very confident he makes our forward line scary..

I also think of the 1-2 ‘enigmatic’ players you can carry in a team. A super dangerous third tall who can mark like very few and kick em from anywhere is one I’m comfortable with. A midfielder, not so much..






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Blues_fest]

Hawthorn filled up on key position players and mids. They took their small forwards very late in their rebuild. They are a prime example of what I am saying. Yeah rucks are another you can bring in late, there are always more competent rucks in the league than there are spots.

Hawthorn didn't bring in Lake, Frawley and McEvoy during their rebuild, they had already won premierships beforehand. They took advantage of getting there first, becoming a massive destination club and taking advantage of some of the new rules like free agency. They still had to rebuild get there first.

West Coast won the last premiership with a plethora of key position players and showed that the game has not really changed all that much. Richmond have the best key position forward in the game, made up for a bit. Small forwards are important but it is not necessary to have them early, it's been proven again and again and again that you can bring in small forwards late in a rebuild. It's unnecessary and really really crap list building to take small forwards who develop early and are not hard to find or expensive to acquire when you need key position players and need midfielders and they are available to you.

Papley will take a first rounder which we can and should be willing to spare. Boyd took pick 6 and one of the dogs best players at the time. Charlie Cameron took pick 12. Dylan Shiel took two first round picks as good mids usually do.

Good mids cost you either a lot of money or two first round picks or both. Good key position players are similar, depending on quality. Good small forwards cost less money and less picks.

So you're saying it's not a good thing that we haven't followed what the real good clubs have done and bring in the small forwards last. That we bring in the slower to develop and more expensive players later and the quick to develop players earlier. That we develop our list so when it gets to the part where we fill holes with senior players they are the more expensive types that cost more money and cost more picks.

Gotta say I'm glad we are rebuilding with the order and good tactics we have been so the above doesn't apply to us. I'm glad we have done it so our list matures at the same time and most of the mature players we have to bring in when the time comes (now) are players who mostly won't cost multiple picks (which will waste time) and assets we could spend better.

We have the picks and the cap space we need to get what we want now, we just need to get those players. We have the cap and picks to land Coniglio, Papley and maybe more and fill our holes and this would mean we are more than on schedule.

We are in a position where we have holes. Having holes is unavoidable because of the enormity of our rebuild and where we are in it. We are in a position where we can fix our holes through the draft, trade and free agency because of how we have rebuilt. We don't need more talls, we hopefully don't need many more mids or defenders, we need the cheapest easiest players to acquire which means our rebuild will be quicker and more successful and there is a greater chance of getting the players we need.

We could be the other way and have more mids and talls to get and not much time to get them. Rules out the draft. Means we are going to have to pay a lot more to get what we want and may not necessarily be able to get them, at least not at the quality we want.

Brilliant post


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Juddernaut08]

Totally disagree. I’m in the minority but I love the McGovern trade.

If you see my posting history I’m all about players that would rather die than lose.. so my stance on Mitch seems contradictory...

But what I can see with him is extreme competitiveness in games and with opponents. He’s always blocking, pushing, scragging

He’s a footballer first, athlete second, training lover tenth...

This year his body hasn’t been able to do what he needs, but I’m very confident he makes our forward line scary..

I also think of the 1-2 ‘enigmatic’ players you can carry in a team. A super dangerous third tall who can mark like very few and kick em from anywhere is one I’m comfortable with. A midfielder, not so much..






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Love it and hope your view proves correct.

He is competitive and he does hate to lose...weight lol

 

[Blutopia]

My only worry with getting Coniglio and it was the same worry I felt about getting Shiel last year - is if we pay him $1.4M a season like reported, how would Cripps feel about this? Surely Cripps is worth more but we couldn’t pay them both that. I would like to think that Cripps has been involved in conversations around this. I know he is selfless but still a concern. What’s everybody’s thoughts on this?

 

[Leon Black]

A perfect off season for me would look something like
Coniglio - Fa
Papley - crows pick 1st
Dan Butler & Sam Grey for the rest of our draft picks

Then I’d really consider throwing up our 2020 first for the heck of it someone with x-factor,

 

[thylacine60]

rarely seen a more audaciously optimistic 55th post!

 

[BigFrizz36]

A perfect off season for me would look something like
Coniglio - Fa
Papley - crows pick 1st
Dan Butler & Sam Grey for the rest of our draft picks

Then I’d really consider throwing up our 2020 first for the heck of it someone with x-factor,

Not sure that Simon Cowell is worth a future first!!

 

[Malifice]

Bennell

Not a chance in hell.

Leaving aside his chronic calf issues (and they're beyond chronic) the guy has off-field issues. Along the lines of Cousins, Dale Garlett and Yarran. Google it and there are photos of him railing lines, other photos of him at an East Perth rave club with eyes the size of dinner plates, and reports of his 'erratic behavior' at a WAFL match in Claremont I think it was, were he walked onto the field rambling utter shit (and clearly off chops).

He was given the flick early largely for those reasons and not just due to his calves. He would have been offloaded earlier but he's good enough as a player (and the other shit hasnt got a full hold of him yet). Even then they tried to shop him around last year, and no-one wanted a bar of him.

Be very wary of the Freo lads that Bell might try to off-load. Bell was brought in to try and clean the side up. The whole team is fractured along the lines of FIGJAM (Fyfe) on one side (supported and protected by the Coach to a ridiculous degree), and the 'party' dickhead scene on the other, blokes who are more interested in shagging as many hot chicks as they can than anything else. They're a lot like the Eagles of a few years ago, only more fractured (and the Eagles 'bad boys' let loose off field, but also trained hard and were pretty close and professional on the field).

Google Shane Yarrans facebook comments on it before his death.

The only caveat is that there are plenty of disillusioned blokes caught in the middle (not in either camp) who are both a little pissed off with the way Fyfe is treated (and carries himself among the playing group) and are also pissed off at the (party + drugs) dickheads who are more interested in pulling chicks and letting loose than being professional AFL footballers. Neale was in this camp (it's partly why he left).

TL;DR - Bennell has 'cultural issues' and there are similar issues at that club. Caveat emptor with any player trying to GTFO of there.

 

[Accidental genius]

Is cogs knee injury not a good reason to look elsewhere?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Hawthorn filled up on key position players and mids. They took their small forwards very late in their rebuild. They are a prime example of what I am saying. Yeah rucks are another you can bring in late, there are always more competent rucks in the league than there are spots.

Hawthorn didn't bring in Lake, Frawley and McEvoy during their rebuild, they had already won premierships beforehand. They took advantage of getting there first, becoming a massive destination club and taking advantage of some of the new rules like free agency. They still had to rebuild get there first.

West Coast won the last premiership with a plethora of key position players and showed that the game has not really changed all that much. Richmond have the best key position forward in the game, made up for a bit. Small forwards are important but it is not necessary to have them early, it's been proven again and again and again that you can bring in small forwards late in a rebuild. It's unnecessary and really really crap list building to take small forwards who develop early and are not hard to find or expensive to acquire when you need key position players and need midfielders and they are available to you.

Papley will take a first rounder which we can and should be willing to spare. Boyd took pick 6 and one of the dogs best players at the time. Charlie Cameron took pick 12. Dylan Shiel took two first round picks as good mids usually do.

Good mids cost you either a lot of money or two first round picks or both. Good key position players are similar, depending on quality. Good small forwards cost less money and less picks.

So you're saying it's not a good thing that we haven't followed what the real good clubs have done and bring in the small forwards last. That we bring in the slower to develop and more expensive players later and the quick to develop players earlier. That we develop our list so when it gets to the part where we fill holes with senior players they are the more expensive types that cost more money and cost more picks.

Gotta say I'm glad we are rebuilding with the order and good tactics we have been so the above doesn't apply to us. I'm glad we have done it so our list matures at the same time and most of the mature players we have to bring in when the time comes (now) are players who mostly won't cost multiple picks (which will waste time) and assets we could spend better.

We have the picks and the cap space we need to get what we want now, we just need to get those players. We have the cap and picks to land Coniglio, Papley and maybe more and fill our holes and this would mean we are more than on schedule.

We are in a position where we have holes. Having holes is unavoidable because of the enormity of our rebuild and where we are in it. We are in a position where we can fix our holes through the draft, trade and free agency because of how we have rebuilt. We don't need more talls, we hopefully don't need many more mids or defenders, we need the cheapest easiest players to acquire which means our rebuild will be quicker and more successful and there is a greater chance of getting the players we need.

We could be the other way and have more mids and talls to get and not much time to get them. Rules out the draft. Means we are going to have to pay a lot more to get what we want and may not necessarily be able to get them, at least not at the quality we want.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As I said the last three pieces of Hawthorns puzzle were three KPP so I think we are picking and choosing when a rebuild is finished or what it even is. Same with Richmond bringing in two midfielders and a ruck. All probably seen as key parts of a rebuild yet all where finishing touches of those premiership sides.
For me midfield holes would be much simpler to fill this offseason than a decent small forward as there are so many more out there. We are hoping on attracting a contracted player atm. Just look at what position all the good FA are this season and most have been good enough to be part of successful teams already. I’m glad the club has acknowledged that we need to find them because I see them as important as nearly any other part of the ground.
Hawthorn had the best in the league, Richmond won a grand final with a game plan where they were paramount, WC just won a grand final with only 2 really good mids because they were balanced and than i look at a side like GWS who have 6-7 star midfielders and huge amounts of talent all over the ground but they can’t get the job done because they haven’t got the small forwards. For me they are vital and just waiting to the end when there are no guarantees of finding them I think is dangerous.
Sure if we do get a Papley we are laughing but that’s less likely to happen than it is to so what’s the next option if it doesn’t happen? I think it has to be our main priority from now on.

Edit
Papley could easily cost a first and second this year so not far off Shiel. Cameron was not a gun when he left, probably closer to Tom Mitchell who cost less.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Thinking more along the line of be able to cover the dangerous smalls of the competition that most sides now have many of, Stocker maybe short term but might struggle on the small quick forwards, will move into the midfield as soon as his endurance improves. SPS looks a comfortable fit down there like to see how he handles the dangerous forwards head to head certainly has great natural instincts to do well on them, Willo jmo probably more plays on the medium forwards and Simmo and Daisy doing great jobs but will need to be replaced if not this year next, not only are we very thin on our small forwards on our list the small defenders are in the same boat as well...

Beating quality small forwards is more about team defence and up-field pressure than it is having a gun small defender. Don't get me wrong, a 180cm blokes with pace who can blanket an Eddie Betts is something you want, but if your midfield don't let the opposition do whatever they want, and your defensive group are well-drilled, well-positioned and support each other, small forwards will struggle to turn a game. They need the ball to hit the deck, and in an area where they can find a little space for a shot on goal. If the forward 50 entries are shallow, if the taller defenders are marking or spoiling towards teammates or into congestion, the opportunity for small forwards is minimised. They'll probably still hit the scoreboard, it's hard to stop them entirely when they're the ones that typically benefit from the odd brain-fade turnover, but they inspire a lot less fear when they're not creating goals.

Elite small defender - nice to have, but probably last on our list of priorities.

 

[Funk]

SOS has done it again!

A second rounder and 700K per season over 5 should do the trick now …

Will scare off other suiters as well..

SOS Masterclass!!!

Business as usual - Coniglio has a summer job at SOS’s car wash.

 

[true blue19]

Our biggest need is small forwards and I'm hoping we add at least 2 and I'll go after Elliot, Papley, Gray and still pick a kid up in the draft.

I also think we need speed out of defense if our back 6 is
Newman Jones Marchbank
Docherty Weitering Plowman
they are all good defenders but there is not a lot of run there.
Someone similar Yarran that can grab the ball and run

 

[Weiterbot23]

My only worry with getting Coniglio and it was the same worry I felt about getting Shiel last year - is if we pay him $1.4M a season like reported, how would Cripps feel about this? Surely Cripps is worth more but we couldn’t pay them both that. I would like to think that Cripps has been involved in conversations around this. I know he is selfless but still a concern. What’s everybody’s thoughts on this?

What ever we pay cogs we will have to pay Cripps 200k more when his contract is up

I'm worried someone like SPS could fall out as we will have to pay McKay etc more in a few years


Once we are good and have heaps of guys worthy of good money, I hope we trade a Cripps or Curnow for a mint, would rather lose one gun and get heaps of picks back than 3 or 4 good-average players

 

[Blue__Balls]

What ever we pay cogs we will have to pay Cripps 200k more when his contract is up

I'm worried someone like SPS could fall out as we will have to pay McKay etc more in a few years


Once we are good and have heaps of guys worthy of good money, I hope we trade a Cripps or Curnow for a mint, would rather lose one gun and get heaps of picks back than 3 or 4 good-average players

WTF did you just say...

 

[Metalcrusher]

Business as usual - Coniglio has a summer job at SOS’s car wash.

Wait until he is linked to SOS's other hidden daughter

 

[Arr0w]

What ever we pay cogs we will have to pay Cripps 200k more when his contract is up

I'm worried someone like SPS could fall out as we will have to pay McKay etc more in a few years


Once we are good and have heaps of guys worthy of good money, I hope we trade a Cripps or Curnow for a mint, would rather lose one gun and get heaps of picks back than 3 or 4 good-average players

Plenty of money to go around, just look at all the 27+ year olds that won't be on the list in the next 1-3 years

 

[gbatman]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As I said the last three pieces of Hawthorns puzzle were three KPP so I think we are picking and choosing when a rebuild is finished or what it even is. Same with Richmond bringing in two midfielders and a ruck. All probably seen as key parts of a rebuild yet all where finishing touches of those premiership sides.
For me midfield holes would be much simpler to fill this offseason than a decent small forward as there are so many more out there. We are hoping on attracting a contracted player atm. Just look at what position all the good FA are this season and most have been good enough to be part of successful teams already. I’m glad the club has acknowledged that we need to find them because I see them as important as nearly any other part of the ground.
Hawthorn had the best in the league, Richmond won a grand final with a game plan where they were paramount, WC just won a grand final with only 2 really good mids because they were balanced and than i look at a side like GWS who have 6-7 star midfielders and huge amounts of talent all over the ground but they can’t get the job done because they haven’t got the small forwards. For me they are vital and just waiting to the end when there are no guarantees of finding them I think is dangerous.
Sure if we do get a Papley we are laughing but that’s less likely to happen than it is to so what’s the next option if it doesn’t happen? I think it has to be our main priority from now on.

Edit
Papley could easily cost a first and second this year so not far off Shiel. Cameron was not a gun when he left, probably closer to Tom Mitchell who cost less.

Who were the three key position pieces Hawthorn picked up before they started winning flags? Roughead and Franklin, and Schoenmakers came in before they really targeted small forwards and Gibson was a bit of luck, talented but needed a kick up the arse. All the small forwards came the last couple of years.

Midfield holes are fillable but it takes more which means it will have to happen over a number of seasons if you need multiple midfielders. You might get Coniglio and it will be for a lot of money so that will build cap pressure. Anyone else will take two first rounders and then we are left with nothing, late picks.

Having holes like small forward and ruckmen, they aren't going to cost the big money, they aren't going to cost multiple picks which means instead of just getting one good midfielder, we can get two good small forwards or maybe a midfielder and a small forward.

There are plenty of small forwards out there and we have the currency to get them. We have the currency for 1 good mid, a good mid means we go into next years draft minus our first round pick. A good forward means we lose just this years. Long run we end up with less doing it your way.

Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast did not have good small forwards at the same stage in their rebuild that we are in now. Using them as examples is not supporting your argument. We are rebuilding much the same way they have. We are not there yet we are 3/4 there, even if we had good small forwards we would be nowhere near finals so it's pointless having them now.

Papley is not that unlikely, we have the currency and there is enough rumour of him wanting to come. We will do what Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast did when they were in the last two seasons of their rebuild and we will get small forwards and whatever else we need.

GWS have their problems in regards to list building. We can't really be compared to them because we aren't in the same situation as they are and we aren't taking the same path as them. They aren't really relevant to us at all.

We've got two more seasons to get our team together before a lot of our young players hit maturity and we start playing really good football. If we left our last holes to fill as key position players or mids then that rules out the draft and it means we have to cough up a lot more to get what we want. We've done it this way so we can still fill the holes through the draft and so it won't cost us a heap of picks or players or whatever to fill the final holes.

For every side that has needed to bring in one or two mids or talls to finish their rebuild we're a club who hopefully doesn't because we are doing it better than they did. Might be hard to see now but soon, unless things go wrong, it won't be hard to see at all.

The final product will tell the story and I'm backing that product will be very good and our timing will be very good as well.

You need to understand, if we had good small forwards they would be in replace of some of our other good young players like Dow, O'Brien, Setterfield, Stocker, Fisher etc and they would be struggling because we haven't been a very good team and we haven't been able to move the ball and will the ball well enough to utilise them. Having good small forwards now would not benefit us or make us a better team now and long term it would hold us back as we need all the good midfielders we can get and we need to be able to replace some of our older midfielders down the track.

What we are doing will work out and work out very well and maybe it won't take us two more drafts to finalise our team and fly up the ladder. Maybe we will do a Brisbane and get a gun mid and gun small forward and fly up the ladder next year. That's a big possibility.