List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

[Sheephead]

Call me crazy but it seems as we have been saying this about SPS since the day we drafted him. Just wondering how many more pre seasons he needs for him to live up to the hype on these here pages?

We have haven’t we. If you ask me, we are trying to turn him into Yarran, when we really have a different type. I’d move him into the middle or up the ground. Remember that game where he and Crippa tag teamed and destroyed somebody. Maybe the wing, he can fall back and be the outlet then run forward. Another reason I like Stack, he has that Yaz vibe about him. Love indigenous players in full flight. Quick story - Once played against Lakes Entrance (Bairnsdale), they had at least 12 indigenous lads, they took mark of the year 20 odd times, one lad seriously stood straight up on our CHB shoulders and took it clean, they kicked goals from everywhere, one bloke even ran from the back pocket all the way to their goal with about 50 bounces, couldn’t catch the little bugger. I was blowing hard but gave up at the wing. FF shouldn’t have to chase. Lost by 20 goals and we kicked 8. I kicked the first of the game, then it got ugly.

 

[Accidental genius]

He would need too his stats are at best bog ordinary.
All his stats on AFL app are at best average or under average. Don't see him ever being an A grade midfielder.

Our biggest weakness in our midfield is hitting a target and IMO is where we really need to focus our trading and drafting.
Our Midfield Kicking Efficiency is quite shocking.

The Good (+60%)

• Newnes - kicking efficiency 64%.
• Martin - kicking efficiency 62%.
• Williamson kicking efficiency 70% (why I would play him on the wing).
• SPS - kicking efficiency 74% (Play him HF).
• Williams - kicking efficiency 64%.
• Murphy - kicking efficiency 64%
• O'Brien kicking efficiency 63%.

The Bad

• Setterfield - kicking efficiency 51%.
• Ed - kicking efficiency 48%.
• Kennedy - kicking efficiency 58%.
• Walsh - kicking efficiency 55%.
• Cripps - kicking efficiency 52%.
• Dow - kicking efficiency 50%.
• Fisher - kicking efficiency 49%.

Players we have been discussing (some interesting results)

• Phillips - kicking efficiency 60%.
• Polec - kicking efficiency 58%.
• Merrett - kicking efficiency 62%.
• Wines - kicking efficiency 55%.
• Saad - kicking efficiency 76%.
• Kelly - kicking efficiency 59%.
• Oliver - kicking efficiency 54%.
• Toranto - kicking efficiency 44%.
• Crouch - kicking efficiency 48%.
• Witherden - kicking efficiency 75%.
• Viney - kicking efficiency 55%.

Other Cheap players to look at

• Hately - kicking efficiency 66%.
• O'Halloran - kicking efficiency 66%.
• Blakley - kicking efficiency 67%.
• A.Kennedy - kicking efficiency 71%.
• Laird - kicking efficiency 71%.

I’m surprised M Kennedy’s kicking efficiency is only 58%. He is a good kick at goals but maybe field kicking is not so good.

 

[HARKER]

Two years ago in the 'super draft' GWS take three mids with high picks and now all are looking at moving off, for lack of opportunity.
I still see us finding ourselves in a similar boat next year.
None of that matters if you're covered with talent and winning premierships, but otherwise the misses in list build, can really come back to bite.

* Why does O'Halloran looks so short here?

Even though I see where you’re going here, he misses his target clearly, what he also does is, breaks the game open, run the ball from defensive 50 to a forward 50 entry in a few seconds, totally catches the opposition by surprise, allows his forwards to present to him, kicks to his team mates advantage.

Whilst he misses the target, there is a lot more positives there.

100+ metre gain ending with ball to advantage? You'd take that, wouldn't you?
I'm not enamoured with Saad, but can see how that piece fits into our needs seamlessly, without throwing out our balance and allowing Williamson to play wing. This move may yet be important fr us.

 

[Gethelred]

Obviously we all want our players to have good skills but it’s very clear by the stats that even if you are a good user of the ball from HB it is still unlikely that your possession is going to result in a score anymore then someone like Saad, JJ who can break lines. Along the line somewhere there is going to be a contest, it’s why guys like Curnow have more score involvements then these HB who setup the game, zones kill the flow far more often then not. It all comes back to not turning the ball over while taking field position. The benefit of having a good kick back there is that they can hit a target who then most likely kicks to contest, therefore gaining ground.


Richmond identified this and in three games could go down in history as one of the great sides and maybe I’m wrong but they really don’t seem to be an overly talented side to be called one of the greats.

Also I really wouldn’t say Saad is a poor kick but obviously not elite. I just think his run and gun style can open sides up every bit, if not more then what an elite kick can so as long as he isn’t turning the ball over he is a huge asset.

Richmond have a system designed to create overlapping continuous outnumbers, and their run and gun style takes whatever turnovers they produce into account. They do not need pinpoint disposal - although, when they get it into the hands of their better users, it sticks out like a sore thumb - so much as they need field position and numbers at the ball drop. It's a false equivalence to say that, because Richmond don't require pinpoint disposal, we don't off half back; we don't play like Richmond do, and they've built a game around minimizing the effects of their own turnovers.

We don't have the weight of score involvements from the back half because we turn the ball over at such incredible rates. Would that we could suddenly switch the gameplan and adopt a high tackling 'We don't give a **** about our turnovers' gameplan that flips modern AFL gameplans on their head, but I don't think that's where we go. We're built to play conventional footy.

 

[BlueJet]

There’s nothing wrong with his kicking, there isn’t a player in the game who can take on the game like he tries and would be able to consistently hit targets.
Atm our problem is that we have Doc, Williamson, SPS and Weitering who are all good kicks, even Jones and Simpson are fine yet we can’t get through opposition zones. As soon as they try to pinpoint a risky kick we seem to turn it over. Saad and the way he plays is no more risky imo. Even the elite kicks turn the ball over trying to do so as often as he does.
Newman atleast tried this and can be a very, very good kick but was constantly slammed for turning it over.

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with his kicking, more that he has a tendency to bite off too much which can hurt his team either by turning it over or by opening his own side up defensively by charging off at an inopportune time.

IMO he definitely takes more risks than those you've mentioned who generally go reasonably slow and wide - Saad offers a point of difference to those mentioned with Willo being the only one to really take the game on in anything approaching a similar manner.

 

[chunkylover53]

Call me crazy but it seems as we have been saying this about SPS since the day we drafted him. Just wondering how many more pre seasons he needs for him to live up to the hype on these here pages?

He's really a peculiar player because he is a pure footballer with, let's be honest - zero athleticism. He's not quick, doesn't seem to have strong endurance and he doesn't seem overly strong, he also lacks intensity.

However (when his confidence is up) he is an elite kick, handball and can weave through traffic. He's just a pure footballer.

The problem I see is, that the AFL is now full of freak footballers with freak athleticism. Junior footy is just a test of footballing ability because nobody is developed yet - hence why SPS was such a standout. AFL though he is surrounded by blokes bigger and quicker than him but can also rack up the pill and hit targets - it's a tough game.

I don't know what we'd do with him? Has he the endurance or defensive intensity for an outside midfielder or wing? Not at this stage. Can he be an inside mid? Probably lacks size and again, intensity. Small forward? Not quick enough nor provide enough defensive pressure. Half back? Doesn't have the speed to break lines and is suspect defensively.

I'd like to see him just pair up with Walsh on the off-season and do every bit of running with him and really get his endurance and speed up. His best chance is as an outside mid, similar to what Walsh played this year, imo.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Richmond have a system designed to create overlapping continuous outnumbers, and their run and gun style takes whatever turnovers they produce into account. They do not need pinpoint disposal - although, when they get it into the hands of their better users, it sticks out like a sore thumb - so much as they need field position and numbers at the ball drop. It's a false equivalence to say that, because Richmond don't require pinpoint disposal, we don't off half back; we don't play like Richmond do, and they've built a game around minimizing the effects of their own turnovers.

We don't have the weight of score involvements from the back half because we turn the ball over at such incredible rates. Would that we could suddenly switch the gameplan and adopt a high tackling 'We don't give a fu** about our turnovers' gameplan that flips modern AFL gameplans on their head, but I don't think that's where we go. We're built to play conventional footy.

That’s the thing though, I don’t think any side really produces scores from the backline. Even a side like West Coast who do chip it around, Hurn hardly ever starts scoring plays.
Edit. My point is more about already having good ball users in the backline. They aren’t elite but they are good. The thing is elite ball users still seem to turn the ball over just as much and don’t produce anymore scores.
Sure get a Witherden for example who might be an elite ball user but he is poor defensively so you would expect to give up more scores and stats show he turns it over as much too while not producing any more scores.
Yes Saad has faults but not nearly as bad as I think people make out

 

[murphster]

I would like to see which player gets the defensive forward between him and Docherty and how much damage the other could do.

This is the key and where Doc and Simmo were so effective in 2017, Willo and Samo started to be more offensive late in the year which did help to free up Doc.

 

[Gethelred]

That’s the thing though, I don’t think any side really produces scores from the backline. Even a side like West Coast who do chip it around, Hurn hardly ever starts scoring plays.
Edit. My point is more about already having good ball users in the backline. They aren’t elite but they are good. The thing is elite ball users still seem to turn the ball over just as much and don’t produce anymore scores.
Sure get a Witherden for example who might be an elite ball user but he is poor defensively so you would expect to give up more scores and stats show he turns it over as much too while not producing any more scores.
Yes Saad has faults but not nearly as bad as I think people make out

I agree about Saad in terms of both what he'd give to us and that he's not as bad as people think. While sides aren't producing scores from the back half at present, you don't have to go too far back in time for them to have done so; Adelaide in 2016-2017, WB in 2016, GWS until last year, Sydney from 2010-2015.

I think game styles come and go, and the choice for where a scoring play starts is very much a stylistic choice based on personnel.

 

[Sector 7G]

Cut through an entire press with his own two feet. Insane.

Not so sure about that. He ran sideways for 6 seconds , then ran forwards for 6 seconds and then kicked to the only open spot in the forward line because the press had time to push back.

Classic Emu run where no one in the * side knew where he was going. Saad rarely weaves past defenders like Yazz used to, but looks to run around them and not risk being tackled. The clip is an example of slow ball movement. Saad needed to run straight towards goals through the corridor to be dangerous or use team mates to change the angles and be unpredictable.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Also at the risk of sounding like a brokeN record, comparing Saads game and turnovers to an elite kicks then put simplistically, People are implying Saad is just running and bombing the ball so the ball will generally be out of the area and probably to a contest or open ground. Elite kicks who are piercing dangerous kicks, then when they turn it over it is in a very dangerous position hence because of the very nature of the role that they would be doing and probably much more likely to end up with a more dangerous turnover. Now I dunno if there are any stats to back that up but by following the logic of how the two types play that is being put forth then that makes sense.

 

[Foucault1989]

I don't think he's behind JSOS in terms of his defensive application in the F50, nor in his scoring involvements and impact. Levi can't apply the pressure he can.

The comparison with Stephenson is sound, because Jaidyn trades some contested ability and acceleration off the mark for aerobic ability when compared against McGovern. They're both 13-15 disposal, 1.5 goal a game forwards when they're getting good supply.

He seems to struggle with endurance work, which is also consistent with someone who has relatively loose ligaments (aka hypermobility).


Freo thought that way and now look at Hogan. Can be extremely mobile, but needs to play lighter than clubs would like him to be for that (as would any key forward, really).

Gotta pick which version of him you want: FF, contested beast ala Walker, or something more akin to a 3rd forward/hybrid ala Cameron.

When was the last time McGovern got 13-15 disposals? Serious question. His highest average possessions for a season was 12.9 in 2018. He averages 9.9 disposals over his career. He is a spud with good highlights, no work rate, no drive, spends most of his time joking with opposition players....doesn't deserve to be on an AFL list.

 

[bigm386]

When was the last time McGovern got 13-15 disposals? Serious question. His highest average possessions for a season was 12.9 in 2018. He averages 9.9 disposals over his career. He is a spud with good highlights, no work rate, no drive, spends most of his time joking with opposition players....doesn't deserve to be on an AFL list.

Is making the Kristian Jaksch trade look like a winner at the moment.

 

[Gethelred]

Not so sure about that. He ran sideways for 6 seconds , then ran forwards for 6 seconds and then kicked to the only open spot in the forward line because the press had time to push back.

Classic Emu run where no one in the * side knew where he was going. Saad rarely weaves past defenders like Yazz used to, but looks to run around them and not risk being tackled. The clip is an example of slow ball movement. Saad needed to run straight towards goals through the corridor to be dangerous or use team mates to change the angles and be unpredictable.

Think you're being a little unfair.

That's Essendon, though. Look to whom he tries to kick the ball when he eventually goes; to some dickhead leading not up the guts or into the space on a 30-45 degree angle, but someone who started in the hotspot and is leading towards the boundary pocket.

He's looked to give the thing off 3-4 times, and when he eventually gets a target they're behaving in a counterintuitive way. Given his field position when he kicks the ball, it'd be a much simpler kick to lower the eyes and drill it low to the hotspot, but because there is no-one there and his only target is leading into no man's land he's got to pull off a much more challenging kick at full pace.

 

[Jeremias]

Think we need to differentiate between a poor kick and a poor decision maker.

Saad is not a poor kick, but has historically been a very poor decision maker.

At the Suns he was abysmal in that respect, and whilst he has certainly improved that facet of his game at Essendon, he still makes poor decisions.

Luckily a lot of that is down to coaching and game plan, so that can continue to develop and improve even at his age.

 

[DangerousD]

View attachment 972521

Two years ago in the 'super draft' GWS take three mids with high picks and now all are looking at moving off, for lack of opportunity.
I still see us finding ourselves in a similar boat next year.
None of that matters if you're covered with talent and winning premierships, but otherwise the misses in list build, can really come back to bite.

* Why does O'Halloran looks so short here?





100+ metre gain ending with ball to advantage? You'd take that, wouldn't you?
I'm not enamoured with Saad, but can see how that piece fits into our needs seamlessly, without throwing out our balance and allowing Williamson to play wing. This move may yet be important fr us.

On your above regarding the giants boys? Are they all leaving for lack of opportunity? Caldwell and Hately as far as I know have played fairly regularly, not a lot but seem to be building.
But hasn’t the other kid struggled, I can see why he would leave.

I can also see why the other two would leave, I wouldn’t want to play for GWS or GC, no fans, no crowds, no history, no prestige, away from friends and family.

 

[bmaurizio]

Yup agree with you, McGov and few others are precariously close of being traded very poor performance since joining the club like some youngster do we keep them or not ? very deflating.
Perhaps a compressive revision will be postponed till end 2021.
Our lives have been disrupted by an disastrous pandemic , It’s overwhelmingly important to defeat Covid- 19.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Think we need to differentiate between a poor kick and a poor decision maker.

Saad is not a poor kick, but has historically been a very poor decision maker.

At the Suns he was abysmal in that respect, and whilst he has certainly improved that facet of his game at Essendon, he still makes poor decisions.

Luckily a lot of that is down to coaching and game plan, so that can continue to develop and improve even at his age.

Agree Saad isnt a poor kick and decision making is still a worry at times but many are thinking he is an elite kick which is simply inaccurate.

His elite attributes are his pace and ability to run & carry the ball to break lines.

He will be an asset with those qualities alone and as you say he can continue to develop the decision making along the way.

 

[katmanblue]

On your above regarding the giants boys? Are they all leaving for lack of opportunity? Caldwell and Hately as far as I know have played fairly regularly, not a lot but seem to be building.
But hasn’t the other kid struggled, I can see why he would leave.

I can also see why the other two would leave, I wouldn’t want to play for GWS or GC, no fans, no crowds, no history, no prestige, away from friends and family.

The day he was drafted, Caldwell was in a tweet saying can't wait to join the Blues. I think it was a Dow tweet from memory.

I don't think he ever had any intention of staying.
Can't speak for the others.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Brutalitops]

Think we need to differentiate between a poor kick and a poor decision maker.

Saad is not a poor kick, but has historically been a very poor decision maker.

At the Suns he was abysmal in that respect, and whilst he has certainly improved that facet of his game at Essendon, he still makes poor decisions.

Luckily a lot of that is down to coaching and game plan, so that can continue to develop and improve even at his age.

This is true. Its not like there is much semblance of a game plan at Essendon. A lot of the players seemed lost at times over the past couple of years

 

[bigm386]

View attachment 972521

Two years ago in the 'super draft' GWS take three mids with high picks and now all are looking at moving off, for lack of opportunity.
I still see us finding ourselves in a similar boat next year.
None of that matters if you're covered with talent and winning premierships, but otherwise the misses in list build, can really come back to bite.

* Why does O'Halloran looks so short here?





100+ metre gain ending with ball to advantage? You'd take that, wouldn't you?
I'm not enamoured with Saad, but can see how that piece fits into our needs seamlessly, without throwing out our balance and allowing Williamson to play wing. This move may yet be important fr us.

The GWS recruiting over the last few years has been odd, they haven't even attempted to address the key position or ruck issues they have.

Surprised they didn't throw the kitchen sink at a ruckman from another club a few years ago.

 

[HARKER]

The GWS recruiting over the last few years has been odd, they haven't even attempted to address the key position or ruck issues they have.

Surprised they didn't throw the kitchen sink at a ruckman from another club a few years ago.

Very odd. They woke up last year and took Ash, who's likely their Shaw replacement, but the lack of love for ruck-men is weird.

Three mids with picks 11, 14 & 22 in 2018 knowing they're getting Green the year after.
How they couldn't have bundled up two of those picks for a premium ruck-men or KPD'er, smacks of arrogance to me.

You get to a point in the build you don't need more talent, but the right talent. I think they really made a mess of things when they could have capitalised.
I trust we won't go down a similar path.....we better not.

 

[Jimmae]

When was the last time McGovern got 13-15 disposals? Serious question. His highest average possessions for a season was 12.9 in 2018. He averages 9.9 disposals over his career. He is a spud with good highlights, no work rate, no drive, spends most of his time joking with opposition players....doesn't deserve to be on an AFL list.

Adelaide.

Is making the Kristian Jaksch trade look like a winner at the moment.

Go back and look at what I said at the time, and people fobbed me off. I'm trying to make the most of what we have, and right now we'd be selling at the bottom of the market.

Kemp and JSOS are on the list, we're fine, save for TPP considerations.

 

[bigm386]

Very odd. They woke up last year and took Ash, who's likely their Shaw replacement, but the lack of love for ruck-men is weird.

Three mids with picks 11, 14 & 22 in 2018 knowing they're getting Green the year after.
How they couldn't have bundled up two of those picks for a premium ruck-men or KPD'er, smacks of arrogance to me.

You get to a point in the build you don't need more talent, but the right talent. I think they really made a mess of things when they could have capitalised.
I trust we won't go down a similar path.....we better not.

The biggest concern is they are becoming a development league for other clubs.

They have lost at minimum a B grader for multiple years now.

 

[DangerousD]

Richmond identified this and in three games could go down in history as one of the great sides and maybe I’m wrong but they really don’t seem to be an overly talented side to be called one of the greats.

I can see where people are coming from when they say this but I think we are either not giving enough credit, not recognising what’s happening in front of us or getting caught up in what we have always been told what makes a great side.

If the Tigers win again they will go down as one of the great sides and they will thoroughly deserve the it.

Winning Is what makes a team great