List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

[ABigOlDoofus]

2015 we selected J.G McCASKER 1st pick in the rookie draft... Never played a game. Some Rookies that were selected in that draft

• Tom Papley
• Darcy McPherson
• M.Choi
• Dan Houston
• Hugh Greenwood
• Kane Mitchell
• Alex Keith

2016 we selected McCreadie pick 47 we could have selected

• Jack Graham (we went after him this year)
• Ed Phillips (played great footy this year)

2016 we selected Cam Polson pick 59
we could have selected

• Q. Narkle

2016 we selected P. Kerr pick 65
we could have selected

• Luke Ryan
• Nick Larkey

2016 Rookie selection Kym Lebois
we could have selected

• Tyson Stengle
• Peter Ladhams
• Cam Zurhaar
• Jack Henry
• Ronke

2016 rookie selection Alex Silvagni, we could have taken

• Robbie Fox (played excellent footy for sydney this year)
• Oscar McInerny

2016 rookie selection Andrew Galucci, we could have selected

• Jarrod Lienert
• James Cousins (depth player, not the best but playing games unlike Galucci)
• Sam Simpson (played some decent games for Geelong this year

I can go on if you want... 100% SOS was a below average recruiter

Mate you could make a list like this for 99% of list managers. We get it, you don't like SOS.

Also it wasn't solely him scouting talent, that's on the rest of the recruiting department as well.

 

[Blue Chip Pass]

Dan Butler was there for the taking and wanted to play at Carlton.

I know. That one really hurts. He has been fantastic this year. Great pace and poise.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

SOS is not perfect, and you could argue he could have made better choices with some of his 2nd and 3rd round picks, but for the most part he set us up beautifully going forwards with top end elite talent at both ends of the ground (the spine is clearly harder to construct than a midfield), but he has set up for future success far more astutely than Dodo.

Also Tom De Koning is really looking like an astute pick, very much a high risk, high reward selection that is paying off dividends after a couple of years of seasoning in the VFL.

Out of 10, i would give SOS a 7.5/8 out of 10.

 

[COBALT BLUE]

It could all be a ploy but that North poster did say 'This morning'

When did you hear last?

The fact remains we are attracting some decent players because some money can be payed plus growth looks likely indicating finals beyond
Saad is underrated damaging running HB -looking at Doc level of play....very underrated as we know what run off HB can do
probably worth same as williams ie700k[shhhh]....good runners play to structure

 

[Eiffel 65]

I know. That one really hurts. He has been fantastic this year. Great pace and poise.

I'm fairly confident SOS knocked back Jarryd Lyons as part of the Bryce Gibbs trade too.

You'd think he'd want his time over again on that one.

He's done an OK job. Definitely made some mistakes, but also made some good calls too.

It's very easy to overlook, but Weitering and Schache were always going picks 1 & 2 in the 2015 draft. Jury is out on that one. Definitely made the right call.

We should be happy with the way SOS transformed the list. Our list build is definitely not over yet, but the signs are positive heading into 2021.

 

[Jeremias]

Its too easy to breakdown all the duds recruited by SOS. Granted he picked up a few good players. What recruiter doesn't pick up a few good players. Actually I would say that Kade Simpson played more games than all these duds combined.

Duds:

Kennedy
Billy Smedts
Jarrod Pickett
Rhys Palmer
Harrison MCreadie
Cameron Polson
Pat Kerr
Kim Lebois
Alex Silvagni
Andrew Galluci
Jed Lamb
Andrew Phillips
Sam Kerrige
Liam Sumner
Jess Glass McCasker
Matthew Lobbe
Darcy Lang
Aaron Mullet
LOB
Angus Schumacher
Jarrod Garlett
Cam O'shea
Matt Shaw
Mitch McGovern
Alex Fasolo
Finbar O'dwyer
Ben Silvagni
Hugh Goddard
Wait for it ... Tom Bugg
Callum Moore
Matthew Wright
Daniel Gorringe
Matthew Korcheck (picked before josh Thomas from Collingwood / Dan Houston / Kane Mitchell from Port Adelaide)

Thanks. Now I know what I'm dealing with here.

It's funny - you're probably thinking you've gone some way to proving your 'point', yet the only thing you've demonstrated is the ability to compile a list.

Unfortunately the above does nothing to prove your initial statement. Anyone can put a list together - it's another thing to understand and analyse.

You could literally put a list together similar to the above, for every single recruiter. Every single one in the history of the game.

Can you tell us the context in which these guys were recruited? Can you tell us why most of them were brought to the club. I'm sceptical but happy to debate.

just proving that SOS was a below average recruiter ...

You keep saying that but you've actually not put any proof forward.

Where is this proof? Are you still working on it or do you really think what you've put forward proves what you think it does?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Thanks. Now I know what I'm dealing with here.

It's funny - you're probably thinking you've gone some way to proving your 'point', yet the only thing you've demonstrated is the ability to compile a list.

Unfortunately the above does nothing to prove your initial statement. Anyone can put a list together - it's another thing to understand and analyse.

You could literally put a list together similar to the above, for every single recruiter. Every single one in the history of the game.

Can you tell us the context in which these guys were recruited? Can you tell us why most of them were brought to the club. I'm sceptical but happy to debate.



You keep saying that but you've actually not put any proof forward.

Where is this proof? Are you still working on it or do you really think what you've put forward proves what you think it does?

I already did that...

Still waiting for him to tell me who we should've drafted...

 

[Eiffel 65]

You could literally put a list together similar to the above, for every single recruiter. Every single one in the history of the game.

I love SOS as much as the next guy, but you can't defend that list compiled by CashCow3053.

If you exclude recruitment for start up clubs E.g. Gold Coast and GWS at inception, no other recruiter in the industry would have as many misses over four trade periods as what SOS had.

His trading of mature age players was probably the worst the industry has ever seen. Same goes for his selections of late picks in the draft. However, in saying this, his selection of first rounders has been acceptable.

Anyway, for arguments sake, lets say SOS brought in all of those players as top ups for our VFL side and never had any intention of playing them at AFL level. The one trade you can't dispute and probably sums up his time at the trade table was his marquee signing was Mitch McGovern. You can't sit there and tell me that McGovern was only brought in as depth and only expected to play VFL or have the output he has had to date.

Bottom line, SOS has done an OK job of building this list, but some of his tactics were unpalatable at times.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

2015 we selected J.G McCASKER 1st pick in the rookie draft... Never played a game. Some Rookies that were selected in that draft

• Tom Papley
• Darcy McPherson
• M.Choi
• Dan Houston
• Hugh Greenwood
• Kane Mitchell
• Alex Keith

2016 we selected McCreadie pick 47 we could have selected

• Jack Graham (we went after him this year)
• Ed Phillips (played great footy this year)

2016 we selected Cam Polson pick 59
we could have selected

• Q. Narkle

2016 we selected P. Kerr pick 65
we could have selected

• Luke Ryan
• Nick Larkey

2016 Rookie selection Kym Lebois
we could have selected

• Tyson Stengle
• Peter Ladhams
• Cam Zurhaar
• Jack Henry
• Ronke

2016 rookie selection Alex Silvagni, we could have taken

• Robbie Fox (played excellent footy for sydney this year)
• Oscar McInerny

2016 rookie selection Andrew Galucci, we could have selected

• Jarrod Lienert
• James Cousins (depth player, not the best but playing games unlike Galucci)
• Sam Simpson (played some decent games for Geelong this year

I can go on if you want... 100% SOS was a below average recruiter

This is quite possibly the laziest analysis of recruiting I have ever seen.

You do realise that just because there were good players taken after our pick, it doesn't mean that anybody other than the club who took them was considering them.

Glass-McCasker and LeBois were considered the best players not to get drafted in their respective years. We went with the consensus.

Late picks and rookie picks are a lottery for all teams. If those players were considered to have the potential they now show, they wouldn't have been rookie picks.

100% hindsight recruiting by looking at who was still available after an unsuccessful pick. Do better.

 

[Jeremias]

I already did that...

Still waiting for him to tell me who we should've drafted...

I saw. You missed a few points I would have raised but did well overall.

Said poster appears to have nothing but hindsight recruiting to hang his hat on, which is shallow and certainly doesn't prove what he seems to think it does.

 

[Eiffel 65]

This is quite possibly the laziest analysis of recruiting I have ever seen.

You do realise that just because there were good players taken after our pick, it doesn't mean that anybody other than the club who took them was considering them.

Glass-McCasker and LeBois were considered the best players not to get drafted in their respective years. We went with the consensus.

Late picks and rookie picks are a lottery for all teams. If those players were considered to have the potential they now show, they wouldn't have been rookie picks.

100% hindsight recruiting by looking at who was still available after an unsuccessful pick. Do better.

Here's a question for you:

How many players have we taken in the rookie draft between 2015-2019 that are starting 22 players for us?

The answer is 0.

I'll recap on my post above. The one thing SOS did relatively well for us was his selection of first round picks. Beyond that, his trading for mature age players and drafting of back end picks was left to be desired.

 

[Jeremias]

I love SOS as much as the next guy, but you can't defend that list compiled by CashCow3053.

Please mate.

There's nothing to defend there. It's simply a pathetic and lazy attempt to be critical of SOS with clearly zero understanding or intent to understand why those names are even on that list.

SOS made plenty of mistakes. Nobody has said any different. But the conclusion this particular poster is reaching on the back of those mistakes is wrong.

 

[Stamos]

Here's a question for you:

How many players have we taken in the rookie draft between 2015-2019 that are starting 22 players for us?

The answer is 0.

Why should there be any?

If a mythical perfect recruiter nailed 100% of their picks and trades, there wouldn't be any rookie making the best 22

 

[azlou]

Is there anything fish lacks to become a top small forward could he spend the offseason learning from Eddie
We desperately need a small crumbing forward he looked pretty good in couple of games I don’t know if he trained last preseason for the role or if he was injured

 

[HARKER]

Is there anything fish lacks to become a top small forward could he spend the offseason learning from Eddie
We desperately need a small crumbing forward he looked pretty good in couple of games I don’t know if he trained last preseason for the role or if he was injured

Eddie can teach him how to kick with his right?

Fisher just doesn't seem to be a natural forward.
He's a one touch accumulator and quality distributor.

He's better than most smalls we have to play forward, but I just don't see him having that innate goal-kicking ability.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Why should there be any?

If a mythical perfect recruiter nailed 100% of their picks and trades, there wouldn't be any rookie making the best 22

There should be some because history tells you that premiership winning sides have developed strong depth and competition for spots with rookie selections. Richmond are a great example of this and I've listed some of their rookie gems below.

You can't solely rely on first round selections. You only get one per year. Premiership winning sides aren't made up of 12 first rounders and a bunch of hacks. It's a big reason why our list build took longer than expected. We were unable to land anything late in the draft. It's a big reason why we were sitting on two wins at the end of the 2018 season (3 years into our rebuild).

Late/Rookie selections as part of Richmond's premiership side in 2019:
Nathan Broad: Pick 67 in 2015 National Draft.
Jayden Short: Pick 11 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Kane Lambert: Pick 46 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Jason Castagna: Pick 29 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Ivan Soldo: Pick 68 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Liam Baker: Pick 18 in 2018 Rookie Draft.
Marlion Pickett: Mid season draft selection.

Got to say, in looking at the above selections, the Richmond recruiting team did an amazing job in 2015.

 

[Burgers45]

Is there anything fish lacks to become a top small forward could he spend the offseason learning from Eddie
We desperately need a small crumbing forward he looked pretty good in couple of games I don’t know if he trained last preseason for the role or if he was injured

Carlton forward signs contract extension

The Blues have locked away more promising talent.

www.zerohanger.com

 

[Stamos]

There should be some because history tells you that premiership winning sides have developed strong depth and competition for spots with rookie selections. Richmond are a great example of this and I've listed some of their rookie gems below.

You can't solely rely on first round selections. You only get one per year. Premiership winning sides aren't made up of 12 first rounders and a bunch of hacks. It's a big reason why our list build took longer than expected. We were unable to land anything late in the draft.

Late/Rookie selections as part of Richmond's premiership side in 2019:
Nathan Broad: Pick 67 in 2015 National Draft.
Jayden Short: Pick 11 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Kane Lambert: Pick 46 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Jason Castagna: Pick 29 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Ivan Soldo: Pick 68 in 2015 Rookie Draft.
Liam Baker: Pick 18 in 2018 Rookie Draft.
Marlion Pickett: Mid season draft selection.

Got to say, in looking at the above selections, the Richmond recruiting team did an amazing job in 2015.

I think you missed my point.
Richmond did well with their rookie picks, but likewise butchered a number of first rounders. If they didn't have those mistakes, the rookies wouldn't have gotten a look in.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Here's a question for you:

How many players have we taken in the rookie draft between 2015-2019 that are starting 22 players for us?

The answer is 0.

I'll recap on my post above. The one thing SOS did relatively well for us was his selection of first round picks. Beyond that, his trading for mature age players and drafting of back end picks was left to be desired.

There is no doubt we haven't done well in the rookie draft for a while. However, we get points for supplementary picks with Gibbons and Cottrell.

Williamson is a huge win for a pick in the 60s. In fact all 5 of our picks in the 2016 draft are still on our list as we speak. Fisher at #25 isn't a first rounder either.

DeKoning at #30 in the 2017 draft was a huge surprise to everyone and on potential looks like a genius selection.

Let's not forget that JSOS has proven to be great value for a pick in the 50s.

SOS didn't really trade for many mature players. Lang was a fail. Others were DFAs or throwaway picks we weren't going to use.

SOS's main positive was his ability to build a list through wheeling and dealing better than anyone else. He had to maintain a competitive team while completing turning the list over and rebuilding with talent at a rate far greater than 1 first rounder per year.

Bloody hard task when you spend all of your currency in the first year.

 

[Eiffel 65]

I think you missed my point.
Richmond did well with their rookie picks, but likewise butchered a number of first rounders. If they didn't have those mistakes, the rookies wouldn't have gotten a look in.

No, I definitely got your point.

The point I'm making is that drafting isn't an exact science. You'll have hits and misses. It's part of the game.

You can't, however, have 0 hits in 5 seasons with your late/rookie selections. That's just terrible drafting.

SOS did some good things, there were clearly some things he didn't get quite right.

 

[AB_Blue]

Its too easy to breakdown all the duds recruited by SOS. Granted he picked up a few good players. What recruiter doesn't pick up a few good players. Actually I would say that Kade Simpson played more games than all these duds combined.

Duds:

Kennedy
Billy Smedts
Jarrod Pickett
Rhys Palmer
Harrison MCreadie
Cameron Polson
Pat Kerr
Kim Lebois
Alex Silvagni
Andrew Galluci
Jed Lamb
Andrew Phillips
Sam Kerrige
Liam Sumner
Jess Glass McCasker
Matthew Lobbe
Darcy Lang
Aaron Mullet
LOB
Angus Schumacher
Jarrod Garlett
Cam O'shea
Matt Shaw
Mitch McGovern
Alex Fasolo
Finbar O'dwyer
Ben Silvagni
Hugh Goddard
Wait for it ... Tom Bugg
Callum Moore
Matthew Wright
Daniel Gorringe
Matthew Korcheck (picked before josh Thomas from Collingwood / Dan Houston / Kane Mitchell from Port Adelaide)

Cain your the CEO of an AFL club you don’t have time to be on BF......


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Stamos]

No, I definitely got your point.

The point I'm making is that drafting isn't an exact science. You'll have hits and misses. It's part of the game.

You can't, however, have 0 hits in 5 seasons with your late/rookie selections. That's just terrible drafting.

SOS did some good things, there were clearly some things he didn't get quite right.

Well, ASOS wasn't a miss. Fulfilled his role, added to the club.
Also Gibbons and Cottrell. And I wouldn't be writing off Honey.

But the main point is you can't be saying a recruiter is doing well because their late picks come through when their early picks fail.

 

[Eiffel 65]

There is no doubt we haven't done well in the rookie draft for a while. However, we get points for supplementary picks with Gibbons and Cottrell.

Williamson is a huge win for a pick in the 60s. In fact all 5 of our picks in the 2016 draft are still on our list as we speak. Fisher at #25 isn't a first rounder either.

DeKoning at #30 in the 2017 draft was a huge surprise to everyone and on potential looks like a genius selection.

Let's not forget that JSOS has proven to be great value for a pick in the 50s.

SOS didn't really trade for many mature players. Lang was a fail. Others were DFAs or throwaway picks we weren't going to use.

SOS's main positive was his ability to build a list through wheeling and dealing better than anyone else. He had to maintain a competitive team while completing turning the list over and rebuilding with talent at a rate far greater than 1 first rounder per year.

Bloody hard task when you spend all of your currency in the first year.

Williamson is the best selection of the lot. He's serviceable without being outstanding, but he's the only one.

Gibbons isn't a long term prospect in our senior side.

Cottrell still has a lot to prove. He can run all day but his disposal and decision making can be very iffy.

I'm really bullish on TDK, but lets be honest, his range could be anywhere between Andrew Phillips to Brodie Grundy. No one genuinely has a clue at this stage. Even Phillips had his moments to suggest he was the real deal.

There was some strong talent taken around the Fisher pick. Regardless, picks 25 and 30 aren't really late picks.

I'd argue the other way and say some of his trading made us uncompetitive as a side. Was it 4 wins in 43 games or something along those lines? That doesn't all fall onto the coach.

I still think SOS did really well with his first round selections. He has at least formed a strong foundation for our list build, albeit taking a bit longer than expected. In saying that, I do not rate anything he did with our late/rookie selections apart from Williamson.

 

[skadoosh]

No, I definitely got your point.

The point I'm making is that drafting isn't an exact science. You'll have hits and misses. It's part of the game.

You can't, however, have 0 hits in 5 seasons with your late/rookie selections. That's just terrible drafting.

SOS did some good things, there were clearly some things he didn't get quite right.

What do the other clubs, apart from Richmond looks like in terms of successful rookie picks?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I think you missed my point.
Richmond did well with their rookie picks, but likewise butchered a number of first rounders. If they didn't have those mistakes, the rookies wouldn't have gotten a look in.

Because nailing a rookie pick can have the exact same reward as a first. Look at guys like Papley, Saad and Williams we have chased hard over the last couple of years. All rookie picks.
we also can’t rely on being crap and getting top end picks all the time so you have to do better at the back end of the draft.

once we realise some of our first rounders aren’t good AFL level players we then will see the benefit or lack of those latter picks