List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Kouta2Fev]

First round picks are like new cars as soon as you drive them off the lot they drop in value, most that end up getting traded within 3-4 years end up costing a second rounder.

Usually. I reckon every club would trade two top 5 picks for Rowell

 

[BlueJet]

We need to get away from this thinking. Charlie Cameron went pick 13, no one would be saying that was overs now.

We need a small forward and if we can get one of the very best, we need to pay up.

If their so easy to find how come we haven’t found one in 5 years?

As close as we got was Matthew Wright who wasn’t really a specialist but did a really good job.

Papley: rookie draft
Charlie Cameron: rookie draft
Betts: pre-season draft
Milne: rookie draft

If you want to give up prime assets for small forwards that's your prerogative, the above confirms my point though that good small forwards can be secured quite cheaply.

 

[Blue1980]

First round picks are like new cars as soon as you drive them off the lot they drop in value, most that end up getting traded within 3-4 years end up costing a second rounder.

For first couple of years maybe, then their either lowly valued because their not overly good or their value goes up because their proper AFL players

 

[Blue1980]

Papley: rookie draft
Charlie Cameron: rookie draft
Betts: pre-season draft
Milne: rookie draft

If you want to give up prime assets for small forwards that's your prerogative, the above confirms my point though that good small forwards can be secured quite cheaply.

I get your point but sometimes you need to go for what you need. As I said there is no way Brisbane would regret getting a former rookie listed Charlie Cameron for pick 13.

We found some really good small forwards in betts and Garlett very cheaply in the 2000s. It can happen and it more shows their often late developers.

The more I’ve thought about it over the years the less I agree with the notion that small forwards are a dime a dozen. Our current list proves they aren’t.

 

[ray8182]

Papley: rookie draft
Charlie Cameron: rookie draft
Betts: pre-season draft
Milne: rookie draft

If you want to give up prime assets for small forwards that's your prerogative, the above confirms my point though that good small forwards can be secured quite cheaply.

I think you are confusing them being cheap with being easy to get. These players are rare and hard to find regardless of where they are drafted.


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[Manhattanite]

Papley: rookie draft
Charlie Cameron: rookie draft
Betts: pre-season draft
Milne: rookie draft

If you want to give up prime assets for small forwards that's your prerogative, the above confirms my point though that good small forwards can be secured quite cheaply.

You can add Josh Honey to that list soon...


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Fringe guys from other clubs in this category currently on our list and their output so far:

McGovern (below average)
Setterfield (below average)
Plowman (above average)
Jones (above average)
Pittonet (looks handy backup at worst)
Newnes (backup but not very good)
Lang (list clogger)
Kennedy (fail)
Betts (short term but looks well cooked, can’t see the harm as we have no small forwards)
Newman (above average so far)
Goddard (rookie list backup)

I think we expected at least half of them to step up for us, and most have not. Jones has unexpectedly been better than we’d have ever thought but in a completely different role.

Some of these like Betts & McGovern were not fringe and were key players at Adelaide... But you can add players like Garlett, Picket, Jaksc, Fasolo,Lamb, Sumner, Gorringe, Smedts who were all fringe players at their original club and stayed fringe players at Carlton..

 

[Macca43]

This is like.........3 years from now.

Lots can and will change in that time. Hard enough to predict the following year, let alone three down the track.

In 2023, I would suggest some of those names wont be at the club anymore or certainly not best 22. 3 years is a long time.

Missing the point - It is an exercise designed to see how close to complete our current list is. To me it show we have high quality player on our list already for most positions and the main area we are lacking we have numerous players who could fill those roles. Indicates we can focus on the icing in the next couple of years rather than the cake.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

We need to get away from this thinking. Charlie Cameron went pick 13, no one would be saying that was overs now.

We need a small forward and if we can get one of the very best, we need to pay up.

If their so easy to find how come we haven’t found one in 5 years?

As close as we got was Matthew Wright who wasn’t really a specialist but did a really good job.

100% this, Brisbane when they were seen as a basket case were told by everyone that they over paid for Cameron and were seen as just being desperate to land someone whilst all their young kids walked out the door... Brisbane didnt care, they had a need and were prepared to over pay to meet this need.. next year out of the blue managed to sign Lachie Neale.... This doesnt happen by accident, its aggressive recruiting and being prepared to over pay to sign proven quality players..

 

[Juice030103]

just thinking about how different carlton would look with wines and crouch in the side, effectively taking out ed and murphy

 

[Weiterbot23]

just thinking about how different carlton would look with wines and crouch in the side, effectively taking out ed and murphy

I would rather one A+ player,

Cripps and Walsh and one more genuine gun

Then have a support cast of your Fishers Setterfields dows etc


If we have to pay 1.2mil and give up 2 firsts so be it.

 

[Bluebag13]

I would rather one A+ player,

Cripps and Walsh and one more genuine gun

Then have a support cast of your Fishers Setterfields dows etc


If we have to pay 1.2mil and give up 2 firsts so be it.

What do you consider A+? How many of them would be in the league and would they be obtainable?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Papley: rookie draft
Charlie Cameron: rookie draft
Betts: pre-season draft
Milne: rookie draft

If you want to give up prime assets for small forwards that's your prerogative, the above confirms my point though that good small forwards can be secured quite cheaply.

that’s just confusing poor recruiting with value. In hindsight do you really think any of those would go that late.

 

[El Topo]

Is the fixation on a ready made mid an acknowledgement that we've given up on our coaching/development in that area?

 

[Jeremias]

Is the fixation on a ready made mid an acknowledgement that we've given up on our coaching/development in that area?

I wouldn't have thought so.

More an acknowledgement that you can't just rely on kids to do the heavy lifting.

 

[El Topo]

I wouldn't have thought so.

More an acknowledgement that you can't just rely on kids to do the heavy lifting.

Some of these guys aren't pups anymore - Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy should be role players at least. In a period of overhaul, our midfield coaching setup has been a relative constant...

 

[murphster]

Agree with you there, but how would Caldwell fare in a weaker midfield? At GWS he can just play a support role to a star-studded midfield with Kelly/Ward/Coniglio/Hopper etc...he won't have it as easy at Carlton.

I just feel if we're going to invest our first draft pick, it needs to be for a mature gun we KNOW can still have an impact for us and lead the charge with Cripps to help our plethora of young mids...rather than getting yet another young mid. It's not really the support Cripps needs and the best use of our resources.

Our first, second and third priorities need to be in bringing mature, established guns who can help the team and particularly Cripps in our midfield immediately.

The thing with Caldwell and Hately while they are not mature mids they are right in the zone to come in and start playing good footy now, I actually think that Hately is a little further ahead of Caldwell in this department and has a bigger body on the flip side Caldwell has a better outside game and is quicker, if we could get either of these two we should jump at the chance.

 

[Jeremias]

Some of these guys aren't pups anymore - Setterfield, Dow, Kennedy should be role players at least. In a period of overhaul, our midfield coaching setup has been a relative constant...

Kennedy yes, he has not yet come on as hoped. Injuries have not helped but he should be further ahead of where he is at the moment. I don't see a role for him in the midfield, I like him forward but he's behind a few others in the pecking order.

The other two are absolutely still 'pups' - Setterfield has 20 odd games of senior footy under his belt, and Dow is 21. Sometimes we put too much pressure on these kids.

 

[murphster]

Some of SPS's work on the weekend was brilliant, that little underground handball on the boundary on the near side wing was exquisite and opened the game right up.

Post quarter time (after half time particularly) the Dee's couldn't get the ball past our half back line, SPS was a big reason for this IMO.

I think Macca this is what people are missing by being so over the top about our first Qtr, for the rest of the game and in particular the second half our forward press and whole ground defence was excellent and restricted them to 3 scoring shots and 1 goal after half time and we looked very good.

 

[Gethelred]

The one I want to pry loose this year is Ian Hill. If he doesn't play ones at any point, get in his ear and get him to us as quickly and quietly as possible.

 

[murphster]

I agree.
Additionally, you can generally pick up crumbing forwards quite cheaply - if it comes down to a first rounder (& realistically extras) going out for a small forward or mid, give me the mid every day of the week.

The other factor with that is Austin who while at Richmond picked up most of there small forwards late in the draft after they already built there core group, how much Austin had to do with this is anyone’s guess but I suspect he will be looking to do the same with us.

 

[murphster]

Love that the footy is back and all of this discussion is going on again! Loads of fun reading through the opinions of everyone.

Some personal thoughts of mine:

Docherty: him to the midfield is not the answer IMO. His help in the midfield is not equivalent to what he provides down back at all. I think a lot of people underestimate or forget how important he is as a leader back there, he really helps with our structure and exiting the back 50.

SPS: while I like him down back, I think his best position will be midfield in the end. He is so, so smooth under pressure, and his decision making and ball use is fantastic going inside 50, which is something we're really, really lacking atm. His pressure and tackling are also something we're sorely missing in the middle.

Willa: So, so excited to see him back. I think his best position eventually will be the wing, however I'm totally fine having him down back for now.

Stocker: Get him in already. I don't care if he plays 70% TOG, we desperately need his tenacity and toughness at the coalface. He might not quite be ready yet, but I'm ok with that.

Martin: We need to figure out a way to make him a 20-25ppg player, because the instant we do we become a much better side. Every time he gets the ball something good happens, we need to include him in midfield rotations way more often.

Kemp: Will become an important player for us in the future. We all praise Levi for being able to fill so many holes, Kemp will do the same for us but as a medium forward/back and inside mid, instead of key forward/back and ruck. Should be a huge presence next to Cripps in the middle if he can get his body right.

Off-season trade targets: I think we should be done with the draft, we need to be trying to off-load those picks for mature bodies in positions of need. My concern isn't giving up too much in a trade for someone like Wines/Crouch, my concern is paying too much in cap for them. I think Wines and Crouch would both make our team instantly better, but if we're paying them way too much I'd much rather get some budget options and have faith that our younger players will come on sooner rather than later.

Papley is obviously the big target we're after, but as always a lot changes between now and the off-season, so lets not plan around whether or not we trade for Wines/Crouch/Papley/Williams etc. when something much, much better/worse might happen.

Starting to pay overs to players is my one big concern now that the steady hand of SOS is gone, if we start paying big money to players just to get them through the door and generate a quick fix then all our hard work in the rebuild will be wasted and we will screw up our TPP again after SOS did such an outstanding job to get it back to a good place, this is the quickest way back to the bad old days.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Continuing to trade for former high draft picks from GWS who haven't shown much is surely the definition of insanity

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Kennedy yes, he has not yet come on as hoped. Injuries have not helped but he should be further ahead of where he is at the moment. I don't see a role for him in the midfield, I like him forward but he's behind a few others in the pecking order.

The other two are absolutely still 'pups' - Setterfield has 20 odd games of senior footy under his belt, and Dow is 21. Sometimes we put too much pressure on these kids.

I guess it comes down to expectations. Over the last decade we have probably had 4 highly rated mids on our list. Judd, Murphy, Cripps and at a stretch Gibbs. Look how much more those guys showed then all our kids bar Walsh now. At the same age they were atleast holding their own.
SPS is close imo but not yet as a mid.
i would bet it’s an exception to the rule to become a gun if you aren’t atleast handy in your third year. I’m sure there are a fair few exceptions but we are probably betting against the odds if we think we are getting a powerhouse midfield out of the guys we’ve seen. Absolutely nothing wrong with not becoming stars individually though.

 

[El Topo]

Kennedy yes, he has not yet come on as hoped. Injuries have not helped but he should be further ahead of where he is at the moment. I don't see a role for him in the midfield, I like him forward but he's behind a few others in the pecking order.

The other two are absolutely still 'pups' - Setterfield has 20 odd games of senior footy under his belt, and Dow is 21. Sometimes we put too much pressure on these kids.

All valid points, Jez. I think we're coming at it from different angles here - comparing them to a guy like Williamson, they should at least be physically competing and operating as part of an on field structure, even if they haven't played more than a handful of games. Which brings us back to coaching and leadership...