List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Iamcarlton]

Far out if we really are paying McGovern $800k a year SOS is not as good a list manager as i thought.

I'm hoping that's the front loaded first year figure but over the life of the contract it's more around $650k. SOS had typically been a tight-arse, surely he didn't offer McGovern that much.

Still too much for a 3rd tall that flashes in and out of the game all too often whilst spilling a good chunk of marks each game .

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Personally i'd much rather Docherty stay as a defender, where he made AA, and SPS moved to the midfield instead.

We already know SPS has the ability to play midfield, he's shown it at AFL level before and he was a gun mid in juniors.
It would appear to be a much bigger leap for Docherty to play midfield as he's never really played there before, and we'd be losing a potential AA quality defender from our back 50.

It just makes sense, doesn't it?

I think you are probably glorifying just how effective SPS was in the midfield, was flashy and ertainl not hopeless but had many poor games where he just couldnt get his hands on the footy and would not have had many games where he has had 25+ disposals.

 

[thylacine60]

It may not even be an option as I’ve heard that the mid season draft may not go ahead this season, but if it does I wonder if we give Kyle Martin a go.
Seems to be just what we are crying out for - a running machine who is a great ballwinner. I will admit that form in the lower leagues doesn’t always translate to the AFL level, but as a flyer on a short term contract could be worth a look.

how old?

 

[Aphrodite]

Two first rounders for Cripps on traded to Gold Coast for Rowell ??

...only joking

 

[F_therest]

I think you are probably glorifying just how effective SPS was in the midfield, was flashy and ertainl not hopeless but had many poor games where he just couldnt get his hands on the footy and would not have had many games where he has had 25+ disposals.

You're right about that, but in that post i only stated that SPS to the midfield makes more sense than moving Doc to the midfield, which i think holds true. Doc has zero exposed form as a midfielder and didn't really play there in juniors. Surely out of the 2 it's SPS.

SPS hasn't come on as I would have hoped...not many of the kids over the last 4 years have to be honest which is pretty sad given their potential. I still think he could be better in the midfield, I think some of his talents are wasted in defence (eg I50 passing, pretty good overhead mark, playing on instinct)...as a defender I think he gets caught between being attacking but also marking his man, and just isn't that great as a defender in D50 imo.

Just feel he'd be a far better player and show his skills more if he's allowed to hunt the ball more freely without having to worry about marking an opponent so much.

 

[Own The Future]

how old?

I think he’s late 20s.
It would probably make it tough to justify even a mid season recruit as by the time he adjusted to the level he’d be nearing 30.
I guess it depends if we want short term help while the youngsters continue to develop, or if we view the mid season draft as a chance to bring in another kid to develop and continue with the club.

 

[Macca43]

I was just thinking about all the doom and gloom I have read over the last few days and thought I would try and pick a 2023 best 22 to see where the gaps are. this is what I came up with
Plowman Jones Willo
SPS Weitering Docherty
Walsh Cripps Fisher
MArtin McKay McGovern
....... C Curnow Cuningham
Pittonet ..... ......
JSOS Newman ...... .....

The bold players people will probably argue they haven't shown enough to be included but I am very confident on all 3.

The line I like the most is the half back line - could be an All Australian half back line by 2023.

The 5 spots we have left are a small forward to replace Betts (Papley fingers crossed) and 4 on ballers (probably 3 mids and a back up ruck).

To fill these 3 mid spots we need just some of Dow, Setterfield, O'Brien, Philp, Kemp (if he lives up to his potential he will be a game changer), Kennedy, & Stocker to emerge as legitimate players.

Obviously the only back up ruckman we have is TDK but he looks a good one.

This exercise actually fills me with a great deal of confidence that most of the hard work has been done we just need to ensure we develop these players to maximise their potential and use the next couple of off seasons to bring in some established top end talent.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

I think he’s late 20s.
It would probably make it tough to justify even a mid season recruit as by the time he adjusted to the level he’d be nearing 30.
I guess it depends if we want short term help while the youngsters continue to develop, or if we view the mid season draft as a chance to bring in another kid to develop and continue with the club.

Think we gotta go with the best available player long term. He was a trier and I liked him but no more Deluca’s please...

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

You're right about that, but in that post i only stated that SPS to the midfield makes more sense than moving Doc to the midfield, which i think holds true. Doc has zero exposed form as a midfielder and didn't really play there in juniors. Surely out of the 2 it's SPS.

SPS hasn't come on as I would have hoped...not many of the kids over the last 4 years have to be honest which is pretty sad given their potential. I still think he could be better in the midfield, I think some of his talents are wasted in defence (eg I50 passing, pretty good overhead mark, playing on instinct)...as a defender I think he gets caught between being attacking but also marking his man, and just isn't that great as a defender in D50 imo.

Just feel he'd be a far better player and show his skills more if he's allowed to hunt the ball more freely without having to worry about marking an opponent so much.

SPS found himself last year and was one of our bright lights from another under whelming season, his run and dash of half pack along with elite foot skills was exactly what we needed and can certainly see him becoming our Bachar Houli or Jason Jihnnason type.

 

[Macca43]

SPS found himself last year and was one of our bright lights from another under whelming season, his run and dash of half pack along with elite foot skills was exactly what we needed and can certainly see him becoming our Bachar Houli or Jason Jihnnason type.

Some of SPS's work on the weekend was brilliant, that little underground handball on the boundary on the near side wing was exquisite and opened the game right up.

Post quarter time (after half time particularly) the Dee's couldn't get the ball past our half back line, SPS was a big reason for this IMO.

 

[Doro]

Some of SPS's work on the weekend was brilliant, that little underground handball on the boundary on the near side wing was exquisite and opened the game right up.

Post quarter time (after half time particularly) the Dee's couldn't get the ball past our half back line, SPS was a big reason for this IMO.

Yeah he had a shocker first quarter SPS but has been developing nicely otherwise. Confident he becomes an A grader in time.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Agree with you there, but how would Caldwell fare in a weaker midfield? At GWS he can just play a support role to a star-studded midfield with Kelly/Ward/Coniglio/Hopper etc...he won't have it as easy at Carlton.

I just feel if we're going to invest our first draft pick, it needs to be for a mature gun we KNOW can still have an impact for us and lead the charge with Cripps to help our plethora of young mids...rather than getting yet another young mid. It's not really the support Cripps needs and the best use of our resources.

Our first, second and third priorities need to be in bringing mature, established guns who can help the team and particularly Cripps in our midfield immediately.

We have been saying this since 2015 and we still havent got Cripps immediate help. It really is laughable to be honest.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

When Docherty took over the captaincy at the start of 2018 he was setting himself to become a key part of our midfield.. The answer to our midfield issues might be closer than we think.. Give him another half dozen games finding his feet and then i think we throw him in there and see what we have got..

I always find it wise not to weaken one position to strengthen another. Stays at HB for mine.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

This years first rounder for Papley, next years first for Wines. Potentially something coming back on both trades. Assess the salary cap, offer as much as we can for Zac Williams. We can't afford to not be major players in this years trade period, we can't afford to lose Cripps and he's desperate for support in the middle.

I would like Papley, I would take Papley, but I also think that Papley doesn't move the needle at all for us unless the midfield is massively improved at the same time. Williams, Wines and Crouch for me.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

You'd give up pick 5 for Caldwell? Why would we chase Caldwell when he's a young mid who has only shown glimpses at AFL level...we have plenty of those ourselves.

Setterfield/Fisher/SPS/Kennedy/Cuningham/Dow/LOB/Stocker/Kemp/Philp...in what world do we need Caldwell? If we're going to chase a mid, it has to be a mature and established midfielder. Not one with 'potential' which we already have heaps of. Especially if we're going to give up pick 5.

Agreed, not really getting it TBH. As you said we already have a plethora of young mids who may or may not make it. Do we really need another one?

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I think at years end Kreuzer may not be best 22.

Unconvinced he's best 22 now. I would run with Pittonett FWIW.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I was just thinking about all the doom and gloom I have read over the last few days and thought I would try and pick a 2023 best 22 to see where the gaps are. this is what I came up with
Plowman Jones Willo
SPS Weitering Docherty
Walsh Cripps Fisher
MArtin McKay McGovern
....... C Curnow Cuningham
Pittonet ..... ......
JSOS Newman ...... .....

The bold players people will probably argue they haven't shown enough to be included but I am very confident on all 3.

The line I like the most is the half back line - could be an All Australian half back line by 2023.

The 5 spots we have left are a small forward to replace Betts (Papley fingers crossed) and 4 on ballers (probably 3 mids and a back up ruck).

To fill these 3 mid spots we need just some of Dow, Setterfield, O'Brien, Philp, Kemp (if he lives up to his potential he will be a game changer), Kennedy, & Stocker to emerge as legitimate players.

Obviously the only back up ruckman we have is TDK but he looks a good one.

This exercise actually fills me with a great deal of confidence that most of the hard work has been done we just need to ensure we develop these players to maximise their potential and use the next couple of off seasons to bring in some established top end talent.

Looks good macca have no doubt that in time with the right additions that we can indeed make finals .
But do we have that hard edge that we havent had for going on 20 years to go further ? .
Have my doubts , we can talk teams and names all we like thats why we are in the list managent thread .
But the biggest ingredient imo that is still missing is not names but hardness .

At this point we dont have it until we do we wont be going anywhere of significance imo .

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I was just thinking about all the doom and gloom I have read over the last few days and thought I would try and pick a 2023 best 22 to see where the gaps are. this is what I came up with
Plowman Jones Willo
SPS Weitering Docherty
Walsh Cripps Fisher
MArtin McKay McGovern
....... C Curnow Cuningham
Pittonet ..... ......
JSOS Newman ...... .....

The bold players people will probably argue they haven't shown enough to be included but I am very confident on all 3.

The line I like the most is the half back line - could be an All Australian half back line by 2023.

The 5 spots we have left are a small forward to replace Betts (Papley fingers crossed) and 4 on ballers (probably 3 mids and a back up ruck).

To fill these 3 mid spots we need just some of Dow, Setterfield, O'Brien, Philp, Kemp (if he lives up to his potential he will be a game changer), Kennedy, & Stocker to emerge as legitimate players.

Obviously the only back up ruckman we have is TDK but he looks a good one.

This exercise actually fills me with a great deal of confidence that most of the hard work has been done we just need to ensure we develop these players to maximise their potential and use the next couple of off seasons to bring in some established top end talent.

In 2023, I would suggest some of those names wont be at the club anymore or certainly not best 22. 3 years is a long time.

 

[new_blue]

My observation leads me to the same conclusion and I think we'll start to see changes sooner than later, regardless of whether we do well or poorly.

It almost....almost, has to happen, as we can't start next year still relying on Murphy & ECurnow in the centre.
The pre-season alone, isn't enough to flip our midfield around to such an extent. Game time this year is vital.

I still see Fisher and Dow being used in the centre and want to (desperately want to) see SPS utilised.
All being well, I'd like to see Cripps, Dow & SPS in the middle come round 1 2021 with Walsh and Williamson on the wings.......and more than anything....can we please get ourselves a legitimate stoppages coach? Please?

Looks like we’re on the same page.

I’d also like to see Philp and/or Kemp trialled on the HBF.

 

[BoundbyKreuze]

I think we need some experience on the wing. Newnes is the cheaper option right now and I’d love for him to have a year like Ricky Henderson. He well off that right now. Wings are very underrated. Tomlinson and Langdon getting to Melb make them such a better side. Yet ours are kids. I’m sure we can look at it end of year to who is available. But it’s an important next step with probably papley. That’s my two musts. Elite wing + Papley.

 

[new_blue]

Yeah i don't think we're making the most of his ability in defence...he isn't actually particularly good at defending inside D50 anyway.

Played mid as a junior, showed his capabilities in that Bulldogs game last year. In and around the contest he's a good tackler, can evade traffic and is a good passer to our forwards. He's also showed to be a pretty good marker when drifting forward as well since he's got a pretty good leap and marks the ball with his arms outstretched. We don't get to see these traits as much when he's playing defence.

He is also in our top 2-3 players in his ability to hit a target in our F50. Watching his highlights from last year this trait really stood out for me...and we know this has been a weekness of ours for who knows how long.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I'm scared but sort of turned on at the same time ????

 

[BlueJet]

I would like Papley, I would take Papley, but I also think that Papley doesn't move the needle at all for us unless the midfield is massively improved at the same time. Williams, Wines and Crouch for me.

I agree.
Additionally, you can generally pick up crumbing forwards quite cheaply - if it comes down to a first rounder (& realistically extras) going out for a small forward or mid, give me the mid every day of the week.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Looks good macca have no doubt that in time with the right additions that we can indeed make finals .
But do we have that hard edge that we havent had for going on 20 years to go further ? .
Have my doubts , we can talk teams and names all we like thats why we are in the list managent thread .
But the biggest ingredient imo that is still missing is not names but hardness .

At this point we dont have it until we do we wont be going anywhere of significance imo .

Correct. That question will determine how far this group goes. Without the hard edge, we could be a finals side based on talent but unlikely it will be sustainable or result in a flag. Get the toughness right and sky’s the limit.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

No doubt Doc could go in and cover some short term cracks, but he is an integral part of our defence and is the closest thing we have to a rebounding defender.

I am put off by the range of posters calling for high profile trade ins already. The out of contract players are not attractive to me, given the potential cost. The
only possibly available player I would part with our first for is Papley. He is a need, who importantly wanted us. (I do hold some small hope that Honey, Phillips or Owies will elevate by season's end making it less of a need), Martin and Cuningham form 2/3 of a long term forward structure, although both can be mids as well). If Sydney are prepared to release Paps he is worth a mid to late first or a higher pick with a little change.

I personally do not want to trade our first for Wines or any other contracted player. Zac Williams or Brad Crouch are well worth a "nibble" as free agents. I
will add a rider as well. If we are confident of acquiring either free agent, then it is time for Marc Murphy to pull the pin. I do not want to reignite the debate
over Murph, but simply put, we need generation next to begin now. Caldwell, Hately and a couple of other youngsters are good players, but so are the kids we have invested in already.

Dow has already had a grounding, he has been a frustrating slow burn, but that is the nature of the beast. He has shown enough to understand the club's
obvious confidence in him. He continues to frustrate many supporters, me included, but by no means should be considered a write off. O'Brien is more peripheral, a genuine winger who has shown good glimpses, I feel confident he is a part of the future. I have trouble seeing Newnes being of greater value
in the 22. Can't help but feel the club is having a bit each way on the experience stakes, trying to establish Newnes pending Murphy and Curnow exits. I
cannot support this, LOB is moving past the kid stage, entering the sweet spot for adequate contribution. Needs to be fast tracked, while not consistent, at last glance has great disposal and is prepared to fly the flag for his mates.

I am over the reticence to play Stocker. The couple of games he received showed him combative and skilled, plenty of young players (read Brayshaw, Cerra, Smith, Lipinski, Parish) regularly play around 70% game time, so no harm in this. The youngster needs game time to be able to step up as a permanent in
2021. Similarly, we know Philp will apply extreme pressure at great pace, Lang only played 71% as a stop gap pressure player on Saturday. We have reduced
game time and Teague has announced the reticence of some to spend time on the pine. It is the year to blood limited minutes players. Setterfield needs more
time in the engine room, lauded in preseason for his showings while training inside, yet the season starts and he is pushed to a wing. Show the kid some confidence. Kemp to come next year. We have to go past the oldtimers very soon. Bloody prepare for it Teaguey. If the management has you scared for your tenure and demand results, I can confirm to you it won't come by being conservative. SOS deserves some midfield time too, as does Cunners, we know Martin can pinch hit or better, but there is no second tier competition for the youngsters to audition in. If they are close, give them a bloody go. Invest in the future.

The board, the CEO and footy manager need to make DT confident his role is safe. Coaches need confidence, just like players.

A wonderful post...