List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Blue1980]

Papley and Wines we must move heaven and earth for after this season and i would not be against throwing Dow and O'Brien in as trade bait to get them to while they have some value.

I think that ship may of sailed.

Might have to look at throwing Fisher and even SPS for anyone from other clubs to be interested. If we know their no good, others will too.

 

[Blue1980]

We’re not giving up Dow or LOB for Papley or Wines.

If either or both of the latter want to join, there are other, better ways of getting them across, than giving up 2 kids taken with top 10 picks who we’re developing.

If it was a straight swap for those 2 to get wines and papley, we’d be making out like bandits.

Who cares where Dow and LOB were taken, they have shown very little that indicates they will be quality AFL players.

 

[thylacine60]

I think that ship may of sailed.

Might have to look at throwing Fisher and even SPS for anyone from other clubs to be interested. If we know their no good, others will too.

so sps and fisher are finished?

 

[bluebaggerjuls]

I really think we need to get paddy dow and some of the other youngsters in the middle. The old blokes just arnt doing it for us. Also especially for dow it would help his confidence which clearly has been an issue for him

 

[Jeremias]

I think that ship may of sailed.

Why?

There's every chance one or both will be available again at the end of the year.

Might have to look at throwing Fisher and even SPS for anyone from other clubs to be interested. If we know their no good, others will too.

Just absurd.

If it was a straight swap for those 2 to get wines and papley, we’d be making out like bandits.

Short term yes. But I'd argue very strongly that's not good list management, especially when there will be other ways to get them across. In fact I'd argue it's awful list management.

Who cares where Dow and LOB were taken, they have shown very little that indicates they will be quality AFL players.

I care. And I'm pretty sure the club cares too.

It's the height of stupidity to invest heavily in seriously talented kids only to give up on them at the first opportunity, because supporters are impatient that they're not superstars overnight.

Not every kid can come in like Walsh and impact from day 1. Most kids take time and plenty of development.

They are 20 year old kids who have both shown some good signs thus far, but who both have a way to go yet.

 

[Blue1980]

so sps and fisher are finished?

No the ship of Dow and LOB having currency.

SPS and Fisher would.

 

[thylacine60]

huh?

 

[Blue1980]

Why?

There's every chance one or both will be available again at the end of the year.



Just absurd.



Short term yes. But I'd argue very strongly that's not good list management, especially when there will be other ways to get them across. In fact I'd argue it's awful list management.



I care. And I'm pretty sure the club cares too.

It's the height of stupidity to invest heavily in seriously talented kids only to give up on them at the first opportunity, because supporters are impatient that they're not superstars overnight.

Not every kid can come in like Walsh and impact from day 1. Most kids take time and plenty of development.

They are 20 year old kids who have both shown some good signs thus far, but who both have a way to go yet.

We will have to give a bit to get a bit, if we trade.

I didn’t mean to say SPS and Fisher were no good, I was relating it to Dow and LOB, who I don’t think have proven they will be anything much. They may well be, but I’d be more than happy to get Papley and Wines as direct swaps for those 2.

Thing is, if you put Dow and LOB on the trade table right now, you wouldn’t be getting much for them.

None of this is to say we should not persist with them, we should and we have to, but if we want to bring talent in we need to accept we need to give something up.

I’ve said elsewhere we need to figure out who can play and who can’t and at the moment Dow and LOB are in the same boat as Setterfield, JSOS, Williamson, TDK, Stocker, Marchbank and Cuningham in needing to find out if they can cut it.

If any of these guys were at other clubs and offered up for any of our experienced players we’d tell them where to go, as their all simply unproven and speculative.

 

[Blue1980]

huh?

SPS and Fisher = would have currency at trade table

Dow and LOB = not so much

That is if you were doing it right now, might change by seasons end.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

We have enough draft positions not to need to sell players such as dow sps O'Brien fish-- plus we have many untried young players anyways.. just be prepared to deal our 1st2nd this year and next and take as many free agent we can .. then draft again or trade heavy in 22

 

[Blue1980]

We have enough draft positions not to need to sell players such as dow sps O'Brien fish-- plus we have many untried young players anyways.. just be prepared to deal our 1st2nd this year and next and take as many free agent we can .. then draft again or trade heavy in 22

More the point I am making is if it’s to get something of value, you’d look at it.

 

[Jeremias]

We will have to give a bit to get a bit, if we trade.

Well yeah. I don't think anyone has suggested differently.

Papley and Wines are both contracted and their respective clubs will set the price if they want out.

What that is exactly remains to be seen, but I don't think we'll want to give up any of our young kids, and I don't think we'll need to.

All picks should be on the table. And I'm confident that'll be enough to get things over the line if we're lucky enough to be nominated as the club of choice for either or both of them.

I didn’t mean to say SPS and Fisher were no good, I was relating it to Dow and LOB, who I don’t think have proven they will be anything much. They may well be, but I’d be more than happy to get Papley and Wines as direct swaps for those 2.

They haven't proven anything yet. They're developing 20 year old kids - not many have proven themselves at that age.

That doesn't mean they're no good or that we should be getting rid of them.

Thing is, if you put Dow and LOB on the trade table right now, you wouldn’t be getting much for them.

And yet somehow here you are suggesting they could form a part of a trade for Papley or Wines...

It's amazing. These kids are no good or they hold no value, yet that doesn't stop people suggesting they'd be worth something as part of a trade...

Both are worth more to us than they would be on the open market. You could say that about heaps of kids in their first couple of years in the system.

None of this is to say we should not persist with them, we should and we have to, but if we want to bring talent in we need to accept we need to give something up.

As above.

We've already negotiated well with Sydney once and that didn't involve giving up any of our young kids. If Papley wants out again I'm confident we'll get it done if Sydney agree to let him leave.

 

[Blue1980]

Well yeah. I don't think anyone has suggested differently.

Papley and Wines are both contracted and their respective clubs will set the price if they want out.

What that is exactly remains to be seen, but I don't think we'll want to give up any of our young kids, and I don't think we'll need to.

All picks should be on the table. And I'm confident that'll be enough to get things over the line if we're lucky enough to be nominated as the club of choice for either or both of them.



They haven't proven anything yet. They're developing 20 year old kids - not many have proven themselves at that age.

That doesn't mean they're no good or that we should be getting rid of them.



And yet somehow here you are suggesting they could form a part of a trade for Papley or Wines...

Both are worth more to us than they would be on the open market. You could say that about heaps of kids in their first couple of years in the system.



As above.

We've already negotiated well with Sydney once and that didn't involve giving up any of our young kids. If Papley wants out again I'm confident we'll get it done if Sydney agree to let him leave.

No was more the point I was saying we’d be making out like bandits if we got papley and wines and only gave up Dow and LOB.

Now I don’t think their respective clubs would go for it, but if they did I’d take it and run.

So yes point being they’d be worth more to us than on the open market I agree. We have to persist but I don’t have very high hopes for either.

But that’s just my take, and if I am wrong I am more than happy to be proven so.

 

[norway blue]

No the ship of Dow and LOB having currency.

SPS and Fisher would.

Yeah but then maybe play Lob and Dow . Play them all year . If we want to sort it out do it . Play them . I agree .


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[Blue1980]

Yeah but then maybe play Lob and Dow . Play them all year . If we want to sort it out do it . Play them . I agree .


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They will get games, but we are at a point where there are other guys on the list in a similar boat, no not as much gifting them games as would have been the case in 2018 and much of last year under Bolts.

Teague has the right idea in getting guys to earn their spots.

The worrying part we have in order to progress we are going to have to get a group of 10-12 players who are unproven to a) cover up losing those guys and b) be able to make us even better again.

It’s a tall order, but we need a large amount of them to become regular contributors.

With all of Simmo, Murph, Kreuzer gone in the next year or 2 then Ed, Levi and Jones not too far beyond that we need guys to step up pretty quick.

I assume this is Simmos last season, unless the team catches fire and makes finals or something.

I am guessing Murph and Kreuze will go around another year unless injury dictates otherwise.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Dow & LOB are still puppies.

Go and have a look at the 2017 draft and compare them with their contemporaries.

All of Cerra, Brayshaw, LDU, Clark etc. are the same, puppies.

All have the same development challenges of our two, none sit above the pack. Why? Because they are kids playing in the elite senior football competition in the country.

LDU has played just 21 games coming into his third season, if you were to apply the same metrics you’d be tipping him out the door....but that kid has it, you can see it. It’s just going to take time.

Look at the great forward / mid hopes of that draft in Raynor & Fogarty, both kids dominated at junior level but are taking time to adjust and grow into senior football.
Both have the talent to excel at senior level as well, both just need to mature & get AFL fit. That takes time, patience, continued effort and hard work.

From all reports, effort & hard work aren’t an issue with our two. I have faith they will both become, at worst, good AFL footballers.

You don’t often give away good AFL footballers.

And for a little perspectiv, have a look at the GOAT thread.
At the same age Wayne Johnston had played 0 VFL / AFL games.

 

[Coona Blues]

I really think we need to get paddy dow and some of the other youngsters in the middle. The old blokes just arnt doing it for us. Also especially for dow it would help his confidence which clearly has been an issue for him

System and roles need some tweaking it's not Armageddon like some are suggesting. Plenty of positives from Saturday too.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Just on Dow and LOB.
They Came in very undersized and are only a few months older then Stocker, give them time.
The club are in a 100 times better position to judge them now then when they drafted them so where we drafted them three years ago is irrelevant if our opinions on them have changed. Regardless of how much we have invested in them.
they would only be steak knives in any trade for a player of any note so It would be pretty pointless.

 

[chunkylover53]

If you're discussing Dow, these were his possessions per game in 2019:
21, 23, 14, 20, 17, 16, 15, 20, 11, 14, 21, 12, 9, 7, 7, 8, 4, 19, 13
1st half of the season was pretty damn good but dropped off towards the end. I still think this kid will be something special

Hope so.

 

[btdg]

If you're discussing Dow, these were his possessions per game in 2019:
21, 23, 14, 20, 17, 16, 15, 20, 11, 14, 21, 12, 9, 7, 7, 8, 4, 19, 13
1st half of the season was pretty damn good but dropped off towards the end. I still think this kid will be something special

Those are... kind of ordinary numbers for a player who has poor disposal, is weak defensively and doesn’t hit the scoreboard.

Dow’s big strength as a junior was his ability to win contested ball, and then get the ball out of the contest either through vision or evasiveness. 26 disposals and a high contested rate (compared to Worpel who had 21 in the same year).

So far, that has not translated to VFL, let alone AFL unfortunately. He is still ‘good’ at centre bounces and our lineups with Cripps + Dow + anyone rank amongst the best in the league. But just struggles at other, more congested contests, and doesn’t have the tank to run and get in the end of things. Really struggled to have an impact as a forward, too (as did all our forwards last year)

There’s a path for him that involves building his body and tank, learning to read and adjusting to the pace of the game. Even then, his upside is likely Matt Priddis and downside Sam Kerridge and that is IF he can get his body right

 

[SurreyBlue]

Blue1980 We've started earlier than normal with trading our 'higher' draft picks. Love it.....and so it begins....

 

[El Topo]

Our stoppage specialist is John Barker. What does this mean?

Yep, this is my question most weeks and even last year when we were winning in the 2nd half of the year. Even if Murphy, Curnow and Cripps have good games i sit and wonder who are we grooming to take over from Murphy & Curnow. Obviously Walsh will be one but you need a good 5 or 6 to be going through there each game.

Bolton was right about this

 

[DangerousD]

Reckon SOS has had a very good record on the trade table.

Had some misses, sure, but every single person in his position has and will be the same.

i guess it depends on which basket you put all the recycled cast offs in.

 

[HBF]

Really? Essentially all we have done in 5 years is change the age profile. The quality of the list is still very much questionable bar about 10 - 12 players. The major problem I have with it is that Kruezer, Simpson and Murphy are still on it.

We can't cut all of our senior players like Melbourne did. This does more harm than good.
Having said that, I would expect Simpson to hang the boots up at seasons end, and Kreuzers body may just not be able to go around again.
If we can move Murphy out of the heat in the middle and move him to a wing or even half forward, I think he might have a season or two left.

 

[DangerousD]

I am somewhat happy for a Dow, LOB, Stocker and any other draftees to be playing 2nds for some or all of the season, if they are given clear goals to work on, to get in the senior side. We can’t whinge about no culture and a losing mentality and then want to just play the kids, if they don’t demand a game. The reason we have a losing mentality, is because for so long, we have been about getting high picks and playing them, to get experience as quick as possible And waiting for the tide to turn.

Making young p,ayers or any players fight for a game and then fight to keep their spot, will drive a better mentality, for this to work, players in the senior side need to be held to a high standard and can’t produce many, if any four possession games or no tackle games to keep their spot.

Other than Dow’s disposal, I can see many positives to his game, LOB has physicality and composure to work on but I see a kid with good disposal who can find the ball, I however have never seen Stocker play.

Work on your weakness and the games will come.