List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Jeremias]

To me fiorini is the guy. He can be like what lyons was to the lions. Good solid all round midfielder who isn't gonna have the superstar expectations that would come with a wines/gaff etc.

Fiorini is no Lyons. Not even close.

Lyons is a stoppage specialist, who I have always considered well undervalued. He is up there with the best pure stoppage players in the league, at least he was when he made the move.

He was a perfect fit for Brisbane and they got him for free.

I see nothing particularly special with Fiorini, and I have never understood the hype. He's not a stoppage or clearance specialist, he's not a tough inside mid. He's far more outside, most of his footy is uncontested, he works hard but he's not quick, he's not a a particularly good kick and he probably never will be.

When you factor in one moved for free and the other would cost a fair bit, there really is no comparison to be made between the two.

I would take Fiorini if he came for free, but he won't, and I'm not giving up anything of any real value to bring him across. He's not what we need and we can do better.

 

[HARKER]

......but do we need to wait beyond this season for that assessment? My feeling is no, and I have growing faith in our young group. Sure there
remain questions on a couple of individuals, but we have plenty of talent that need the opportunity to shine. I would be both devastated and
angry if we go through the season with Newnes, Simpson, Murphy, even Eddie play close to all games. That "new" word appearing in weekly
team lists "managed" needs to be our friend. Not just for the oldies either. I understand the logic that selected Lang the other week, but we have
to move past it. Even the likes of JSOS, Gibbons, Cuningham and Ed Curnow should be considered for rotations with quick back ups etc. I fully
relate to the concept of playing best 22 consistently, but we are in a rebuild. The kids need the chance to go past the encumbent. With no VFL
participation and limited, if any contact at training opportunity is limited. I am not talking of gifting, but if they are banging hard on the door
we should not be holding them back.

We still don't know what list sizes or salary caps are going to look like, although now looking more likely to be closer to current than was thrown
up a few weeks ago. If we have to choose between Murphy, Kreuzer, Simpson and Betts on the list or perhaps going a year early as opposed to
Ramsay, Honey, Silvagni(s), even Kennedy, Marchbank, Gibbons being quit on, I know which way I would like to lean.

We have multiple threads lauding Pittonet who would be playing scratch matches without the injury to Kreuzer. We all love MK, but on the small
sample, a great many would now prefer Pit, when half had not even bloody heard of him. He was always quality back up at worst and has
elevated beyond that already.

To effectively manage our list, our team needs to assess the merits of a number of players. O'Brien, Stocker, Philp and probably Dow strike me
as bankable long term midfield participants likely to improve the team rather than exist as depth. As a unit, along with consolidation from Setterfield,
Gibbons, Cuningham and Fisher they can alleviate the need to add experience to Cripps, Curnow, Walsh and Martin. Add a fitter Kennedy and a couple
of others, then conceivably Kemp if the season goes well in to September, even October. I do not want to trade in mature types, even as free agents
if the kids are poised to go straight past them during their first contract. You are right, we need to know, not think we know.

We need to further assess TDK both as a ruck and a forward to ascertain if we need to invest in either area. Marchbank needs the opportunity to find
a role. Williamson, hopefully has the chance to consolidate. We need to assess our KPD depth, although that may not be in the top team just yet. The
bigger one is what do Honey and potentially Owies add to our current forward mix? Can we move past the chase for Papley?

We'll all see things differently but for a variety of reasons (injury included) I don't know where we are with our spread of youth, right now.

I like Williamson............but recurring injuries still worry me.
I like Cuningham...........but it's not hard to see a situation where he has to go back to the 2's
Fisher - I am very confident with.
Stocker - If we can squeeze him into the backline, I feel he will thrive. Opportunity though?
Dow - Hot and cold on him. Would love to stay hot, but it's not easy.
Setterfield - I'm confident, but has to start having more presence.
O'Brien - Not so sure and the fact we brought in Newnes, specifically to play that wing role may be saying something.
Kennedy - He's not a forward. He's not Heeney, nor DeGoey, nor Stringer. Can't see him co-existing with our current forward set-ups.
SPS - I'm confident with him, although not sure the backline serves him best, although he will have good games there.

Here's the thing; Are there any players above, that one could see being in the best three in a game?
Does that question mean anything? I think it does, given just how many young players we're capable of putting on the park at any one time.

Anyway, there's a lot to play out and we'll be wiser come years end.....or will we?

EDIT: I feel we see things very differently to the way opposition supporters feel about a lot of our youth.
Have a look at out of contract players and let's see how many opposition supporters would want to take. It's actually quite thin.

 

[FRUMPY]

EDIT: I feel we see things very differently to the way opposition supporters feel about a lot of our youth.
Have a look at out of contract players and let's see how many opposition supporters would want to take. It's actually quite thin.

From that list you provided i would say other supporters might look at SPS and Fisher - no-one knows of or rates Cuningham, williamson or setterfield and no-one rates Dow or O'brien (take away their draft pick number and no-one would look twice at them (supporters)). Kennedy is seen as another GWS blunder and are not too far off really and no opposition supporter would have any idea if stocker is a good player, hell, i dont know that.

 

[Eiffel 65]

If we were able to get Williams as a free agent, I'd happily throw 2 first rounders at Papley (+ a second rounder). And with Charlie returning, I'd be putting money on a top 6 finish in 2021.

Would prefer to keep next years first because it's shaping up as a very good draft. Also means you can't get burnt in the event of being ravaged by injury or other circumstances.

If Pittonet continues to improve, I'm sort of hoping a club like Geelong throw the kitchen sink at Kreuzer. If the deal is big enough, we could get an end of first round or second round compensation, which could facilitate trades we need to make. Not unreasonable given:

1. They are in the premiership window.
2. They desperately need a primary ruckman.
3. They offered a massive contract to Todd Goldstein in last years trade period, who is about to turn 32.

Just keep in mind that Papley probably wouldn't have the same output at Carlton as he's having at Sydney.

Their forwardline against the dogs had Hayward, Blakey, Hewett, McLean, Naismith, Taylor and Heeney (who pushes up the ground a fair bit). With their KPP's currently injured, Papley is their main target. In our team, he'd more or less be trying to work off ball kicked to Harry, Mitch, Charlie and even Martin.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Fiorini is no Lyons. Not even close.

Lyons is a stoppage specialist, who I have always considered well undervalued. He is up there with the best pure stoppage players in the league, at least he was when he made the move.

He was a perfect fit for Brisbane and they got him for free.

I see nothing particularly special with Fiorini, and I have never understood the hype. He's not a stoppage or clearance specialist, he's not a tough inside mid. He's far more outside, most of his footy is uncontested, he works hard but he's not quick, he's not a a particularly good kick and he probably never will be.

When you factor in one moved for free and the other would cost a fair bit, there really is no comparison to be made between the two.

I would take Fiorini if he came for free, but he won't, and I'm not giving up anything of any real value to bring him across. He's not what we need and we can do better.

Very well put.

Fiorini floats in and out of games, and isn’t at all physical. I suspect that’s why he’s currently not getting a game. GC have really been bringing the pressure and getting in the face of their opponents. They are playing with a tough edge at the moment. In this era of footy, pressure and intensity are probably the biggest determinants for who wins any given game. So I don’t see Fiorini adding much to us, especially when he’ll come at a cost.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Wasn't it looking like pick 9 last year with 25 coming back?
His stocks have risen.

Don't think so. I think people on here were arguing that we need pick 25 coming back because 9 was too high, but I don't feel like Sydney would ever have made that trade.

Given his current form, if Papley was leaving Carlton, I'd be pretty pissed off with that trade.

He's worth in the 10-15.

2 x first rounders, which some are valuing him at seems a bit overinflated though.

 

[FRUMPY]

Don't think so. I think people on here were arguing that we need pick 25 coming back because 9 was too high, but I don't feel like Sydney would ever have made that trade.

Given his current form, if Papley was leaving Carlton, I'd be pretty pissed off with that trade.

He's worth in the 10-15.

2 x first rounders, which some are valuing him at seems a bit overinflated though.

Whatever the offer was it was agreed upon pedning Danhier being traded. so they did reach an agreement.

Having said that, Jack Martin requested a trade to essendon in 2018 and it didnt happen, came to us the next year. No guarantees Papley will want to join us again next year.

 

[Eiffel 65]

On a side note, Richmond have small forwards coming out the wazoo.

So much so, they even have the luxury of omitting Daniel Rioli in this weeks clash against the Saints.

I'm sure there will be better value around than trading premium currency for Papley.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Whatever the offer was it was agreed upon pedning Danhier being traded. so they did reach an agreement.

Having said that, Jack Martin requested a trade to essendon in 2018 and it didnt happen, came to us the next year. No guarantees Papley will want to join us again next year.

North Melbourne will be extremely keen if he's gettable.

 

[iAsbestos]

Would prefer to keep next years first because it's shaping up as a very good draft. Also means you can't get burnt in the event of being ravaged by injury or other circumstances.

If Pittonet continues to improve, I'm sort of hoping a club like Geelong throw the kitchen sink at Kreuzer. If the deal is big enough, we could get an end of first round or second round compensation, which could facilitate trades we need to make. Not unreasonable given:

1. They are in the premiership window.
2. They desperately need a primary ruckman.
3. They offered a massive contract to Todd Goldstein in last years trade period, who is about to turn 32.

Just keep in mind that Papley probably wouldn't have the same output at Carlton as he's having at Sydney.

Their forwardline against the dogs had Hayward, Blakey, Hewett, McLean, Naismith, Taylor and Heeney (who pushes up the ground a fair bit). With their KPP's currently injured, Papley is their main target. In our team, he'd more or less be trying to work off ball kicked to Harry, Mitch, Charlie and even Martin.

G
Goldy is durable as they come.

 

[FRUMPY]

On a side note, Richmond have small forwards coming out the wazoo.

So much so, they even have the luxury of omitting Daniel Rioli in this weeks clash against the Saints.

I'm sure there will be better value around than trading premium currency for Papley.

He should be omitted, has been shocking - maybe another 'premiership player' who just lobbed at the right club at the right time - i dont think he'd be much of a player at carlton

 

[Eiffel 65]

G
Goldy is durable as they come.

If Kreuzer is the best option available, they may take the punt.

Keep in mind we offered a pretty big contract to McGovern, an injury prone 3rd tall to try and bring in experience.

And he wasn't even a critical need for our team at the time.

 

[FRUMPY]

If Pittonet continues to improve, I'm sort of hoping a club like Geelong throw the kitchen sink at Kreuzer. If the deal is big enough, we could get an end of first round or second round compensation, which could facilitate trades we need to make. Not unreasonable given:

Geelong wont be throwing big money at Kreuzer, if they wanted him they'd try and get him for a late pick swap or free agency and we might get a pack of twisties in return - no 1st or 2nd rounder.

 

[Eiffel 65]

He should be omitted, has been shocking - maybe another 'premiership player' who just lobbed at the right club at the right time - i dont think he'd be much of a player at carlton

Rioli's a very good player. The thing with playing in the pockets and flanks is that you're reliant on supply, which may be directed to other players or parts of the ground.

Hence, the reason why I'd be concerned with offloading massive currency for a small forward.

Would much rather pump premium assets into our spine and midfield, and get standard role players in other positions.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Geelong wont be throwing big money at Kreuzer, if they wanted him they'd try and get him for a late pick swap or free agency and we might get a pack of twisties in return - no 1st or 2nd rounder.

A trade probably wouldn't end well for us.

Free agency is what I'd be banking on. But yes, you are correct in that the probability is high that a compensation pick wouldn't be of much value.

 

[Mezzoculo]

Connor Blakely still not getting a gig in the freo midfield. Was the logical Neale replacement but has been overlooked to the point of Serong getting his first game while Connor languishes on the emergency list. Wonder if we'd get in his manager's ear...

 

[new_blue]

We’ve got to be open to the idea of trading, based on needs, not scared of it. There’s value to be created. Need to look at the bigger picture.

Why do people, companies, etc buy and sell any asset? Because there’s a better owner for that asset at that point in time, even for good assets. This is why I really liked SOS’ style because he’d look at the whole picture....lose a little here but make a bigger gain there.

If we liken ourselves to a corporate entity, we’ve clearly got a a bunch of potential (Dow, Stocker, LOB, etc) sitting on our “balance sheet”, sort of like goodwill, or unused equipment or a mine site with uncertain deposits. If we can create an opportunity to monetise that by trading out a LOB, O’Brien, March, Dow, etc - even at a loss - and use those proceeds to invest into a blue chip asset (like Papley), the net return can still make sense even if we pay overs for that blue chip asset.

Having said that, I think it will be v.difficult to prize Papley out of Syd given he’s likely being paid well below his market value.

Apologies, if I’m confusing anyone.

 

[HARKER]

We’ve got to be open to the idea of trading, based on needs, not scared of it. There’s value to be created. Need to look at the bigger picture.

Why do people, companies, etc buy and sell any asset? Because there’s a better owner for that asset at that point in time, even for good assets. This is why I really liked SOS’ style because he’d look at the whole picture....lose a little here but make a bigger gain there.

If we liken ourselves to a corporate entity, we’ve clearly got a a bunch of potential (Dow, Stocker, LOB, etc) sitting on our “balance sheet”, sort of like goodwill, or unused equipment or a mine site with uncertain deposits. If we can create an opportunity to monetise that by trading out a LOB, O’Brien, March, Dow, etc - even at a loss - and use those proceeds to invest into a blue chip asset (like Papley), the net return can still make sense even if we pay overs for that blue chip asset.

Having said that, I think it will be v.difficult to prize Papley out of Syd given he’s likely being paid well below his market value.

Apologies, if I’m confusing anyone.

Common sense shouldn't be confusing.
I don't want to lose any players either, but we have too many of this and not enough of that.

Trading players out, even at a loss, is something we'll have to contend with....but that's if there are takers on the other end.
We can't afford to be a GWS, that were happy to let go of first rounders for next to nothing....Ahern, Pickett, Bonar, Jaksch, O'Rourke, Plowman, Tyson, Sumner, Patton etc....although in the most, they were right.

 

[gbatman]

I can have a look at every centre square stoppage, but I don't remember Martin being particularly influential.
I keep seeing Cripps and then some ECurnow but not so much Martin.
I do recall some good play in the back-line and again some good ball movement going forward. I'll have another look and get back on this one.

First hands to the ball at centre bounces -

QTR. 1 - Cripps * 3.....ECurnow * 2.....Ratag.....* 1......Pittonet * 1
Martin: Good run into the forward line from the first stoppage. Didn't touch the ball in the centre.

QTR. 2 - Cripps * 4....Dangerfield * 2.....Setterfield * 1......Pittonet * 1
Martin: Dangerfield ran away from him. Martin second hands to the ball twice.

QTR. 3 - Cripps * 2.....ECurnow * 1....Ablett * 1....Selwood * 1.......Dangerfield * 1
Martin: Nothing stood out at stoppages.

QTR. 4 - Cripps * 2.....Dangerfield * 2.....Duncan * 1.....Martin * 1
Martin: Good movement around the ball.

There you go.

I was more interested in how Martin worked with the other guys in there and how he competed. His physicality was great, hit contested ball at pace and showed excellent willingness to take heavy body contact, he also got to balls and halved contests that a lot of our onballers typically give up on. Tackled well and put in repeat efforts. Had the second most clearances on the ground which at 3 wasn't huge but showed more about our tactics than his abilities. What I also liked was his ability to quickly link up with our ball winners, something else lacking in our midfield, that ability to quickly and successfully transition from attacking to defending. I thought his competing was what stood out and that's what has been lacking badly around the contests and congestion. I felt he added a lot, added what we lack and so badly need to address.

Will be interesting to see how everything is backed up V Essendon this week. I would hope we play at a higher intensity and a physicality that becomes contagious and a standard within the team and blow them away. Excited to potentially seeing the same thing from Philp who I feel is going to blow away a lot of our more mature fringe youngsters when it comes to competing for a spot.

 

[DangerousD]

Your talking as if players, and rucks especially, never get injured. TDK is 20. Levi is 30.

AS to where those 3 fit, Charlie in the goal square, Marchy to HBF (Willo or Samo up the field), TDK as back-up to Levi or Pitt.
If K is still on the list, fit and in form to push Pittonet or TDK out of the team, that is a wonderful problem to have.

Of course I understand players and rucks get injured, but think older rucks, that can be used as back ups, can be found very cheap, like Mumford, Jacobs, Smith, Ryder, add rucks not getting a game like Cameron and Pittonet.
I just don’t see it as smart as having a player drafted as a key forward, being moulded in to a ruckman, to compete with a ruckman that we have just recruited.

I am just spitballing how/where we will look come trade time, to raise capital.

separately, if Marchbank and Charlie were both fit and ready for selection this week, who are leaving out? Fisher who is supposedly best 22, who are you dropping for him?

 

[HARKER]

Will be interesting to see how everything is backed up V Essendon this week. I would hope we play at a higher intensity and a physicality that becomes contagious and a standard within the team and blow them away. Excited to potentially seeing the same thing from Philp who I feel is going to blow away a lot of our more mature fringe youngsters when it comes to competing for a spot.

We'll see if Murphy is thrown back into the midfield after being ousted for a week.

Really need to see some of the younger guys stepping into the midfield.
Geelong have been doing this, but when the heat got too hot, they reverted back to the old (Ablett, Dangerfield & Selwood)

We still don't know who's going to take over ECurnow in the midfield and expecting Cripps to take every stoppage, is going to hurt him in the end.
Some of our younger mids now have to be allowed time at the coal-face and not just two or three times per match.

 

[DangerousD]

One of them is always injured. TDK needs to concentrate on getting healthy and demanding a spot with his performance on field. Until he is, this is a moot point.

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My point was, to think about using him in a trade with Sydney, if we thought Pitt was the better long term option as a ruckman, considering TDK hasn’t even played ruck before.

Or, if he is deemed a better prospect than Harry, then Harry should come in to the equation.

 

[new_blue]

Common sense shouldn't be confusing.
I don't want to lose any players either, but we have too many of this and not enough of that.

Trading players out, even at a loss, is something we'll have to contend with....but that's if there are takers on the other end.
We can't afford to be a GWS, that were happy to let go of first rounders for next to nothing....Ahern, Pickett, Bonar, Jaksch, O'Rourke, Plowman, Tyson, Sumner, Patton etc....although in the most, they were right.

Spot on. My assumption is that we can find a price for these guys that we can work with.

GWS situation was a little different to ours.


Edit: not suggesting we get rid of the lot Only what’s required to get what we need in

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Rioli's a very good player. The thing with playing in the pockets and flanks is that you're reliant on supply, which may be directed to other players or parts of the ground.

Hence, the reason why I'd be concerned with offloading massive currency for a small forward.

Would much rather pump premium assets into our spine and midfield, and get standard role players in other positions.

Rioli is far too hot and cold for my liking.

Would honestly prefer Shai Bolton.

I agree with your point about the premium assets as well, another tall defender would be nice given Marchbank's constant injury woes, but I think our spine is looking solid otherwise (touch wood on Charlie's knees)

Midfield depth (or lack thereof) is our biggest weakness right now, wouldn't pay top dollar for an Ollie Wines, but more like an early 2nd round for a Sam Powell-Pepper and back our recruiters in the National draft and keep on developing Dow, Stocker and LOB etc

 

[katmanblue]

My point was, to think about using him in a trade with Sydney, if we thought Pitt was the better long term option as a ruckman, considering TDK hasn’t even played ruck before.

Or, if he is deemed a better prospect than Harry, then Harry should come in to the equation.

I see your point.

Think about this though. How many years was Casboult on the list before he became the reliable guy we have today? Who do we have to replace him in 2 years?

If we think of TDK as a Casboult replacement, then waiting another year or two may be required. No point using TDK as trade bait when he will have little currency due lack runs on the board.

The idea of Marchbank being traded is probably more beneficial to us. At the end of the day it's what the other team wants that will dictate value.

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