Opinion 2021 Bombers vs 2000 Bombers

[faible]

Get what you're saying and understand where you're coming in. I didn't say the 2000 mids would be better just that they would be too physical. Also in regards to the 2000 forwards vs our current defense, most good teams this year have founds enough room and 1on1s to put together pretty high scores against us.

Too physical is also a misnomer, modern day players are on average taller and heavier than their past counterparts.

Mark Mercuri was the same height as McGrath for example, and Mercuri was just fine.

There's much less cheap shots in the game, but it's not less 'physical' in terms of contact. So I disagree there.

Our defensive structure would be totally different to what they're accustomed to. Modern KPPs do a lot more running than their past counterparts.

I wouldn't assume that they'd automatically kick a bag, and the 2000 side would be unlikely to be a Top-4 side in 2021 as-is.

 

[fairbump_playon]

It does raise the question of how far have athletes come in 20 years.
Think 20 years is a good measuring point, teams throughout the 90s would be well off the pace.

This type of thing should be covered by football shows or websites. There would be data for it for journalists to use to come to some conclusions.
Really need the Specialised content quality to lift in this sport. More docos, behind the scenes looks, comparisons, physical tests etc.

Go the next level with this pub or message board questions. Who beats who, who is faster, who could jump higher.
Try and connect generations to keep people engaged.

Yes agreed. Would be good to see more on the story of the game itself.

Footy media is so deeply mired in the weekly news cycle. It's full of sensationalism but when you zoom out most of the hot takes feel like overreactions designed to make news out of not much.

 

[faible]

Yes agreed. Would be good to see more on the story of the game itself.

Footy media is so deeply mired in the weekly news cycle. It's full of sensationalism but when you zoom out most of the hot takes feel like overreactions designed to make news out of not much.

There's a lot more data available these days, if only we'd had GPS trackers around in the 50s and 60s to know what the game used to be like for Reynolds and Coleman!

 

[Shane Heard]

Lol…Lloydy alone would give the entire mediocre 21’ backline nightmares 10 minutes in.

The bloke was a freak in 2000. Unstoppable.

He had 169 shots at goal in 25 games in 2000 for 109 goals.
He took 186 marks ffs
323 kicks and dished out 68 bullet handpasses mostly after a mark and to running freaks like Mercuri darting pass.

Today’s squad would have absolute zero answers forward of centre to stop Lloydy, Boris, Lucas, Mercs, Hird, Long and Jason Johnson

Jason Johnson

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hunting on a seek and destroy mission.

To kick a goal you’ve gotta get past the psychotic trio of Hardwick, Solly and MJ plus try and get around Rama, Wellman and Fletcher while making sure Wallis doesn’t take you out and send you to hospital.

No chance in hell.

 

[Shane Heard]

Too physical is also a misnomer, modern day players are on average taller and heavier than their past counterparts.

Mark Mercuri was the same height as McGrath for example, and Mercuri was just fine.

There's much less cheap shots in the game, but it's not less 'physical' in terms of contact. So I disagree there.

Our defensive structure would be totally different to what they're accustomed to. Modern KPPs do a lot more running than their past counterparts.

I wouldn't assume that they'd automatically kick a bag, and the 2000 side would be unlikely to be a Top-4 side in 2021 as-is.

“unlikely to be a Top-4 side in 2021 as-is.“

Ahhh ..no

That is just silly

 

[faible]

“unlikely to be a Top-4 side in 2021 as-is.“

Ahhh ..no

That is just silly

Nah, what’s silly is your completely rose coloured glasses view of the past.

The game moves on, players get bigger, faster and stronger, tactics get better.

The bulldogs flooding beat that 2000 side, the modern game is a far more advanced version of a flooding gameplan.

They wouldn’t be a top-4 side if you picked them up and dropped them in to the current era.

Players and sides can only ever really be compared against their contemporaries for a reason.

It’s nice to reminisce about how good that 2000 side was in their time, but let’s not pretend that they’d be able to run out next week put the Bulldogs to the sword, they’d barely get their hands on the ball against the Dogs midfield.

 

[bomberman500]

Nah, what’s silly is your completely rose coloured glasses view of the past.

The game moves on, players get bigger, faster and stronger, tactics get better.

The bulldogs flooding beat that 2000 side, the modern game is a far more advanced version of a flooding gameplan.

They wouldn’t be a top-4 side if you picked them up and dropped them in to the current era.

Players and sides can only ever really be compared against their contemporaries for a reason.

It’s nice to reminisce about how good that 2000 side was in their time, but let’s not pretend that they’d be able to run out next week put the Bulldogs to the sword, they’d barely get their hands on the ball against the Dogs midfield.

This...
Like I've said earlier. If you sent them forward 20 years to play a game they'd get beaten quite convincingly.
If they were all born 21 years later and came through in the 2010s instead of the 90s it would be a much different story.
- tactics
- strength & conditioning
- fitness

the game has evolved out of sight over the last 20 years.

Prior to flooding an 18 man zones key forwards used to have a paddock to lead into. At the most maybe a spare would drop back to fill the hole.
How many of Lloyds shots on goal came from a lead into space, only having to worry about his direct opponent.

 

[Shane Heard]

This...
Like I've said earlier. If you sent them forward 20 years to play a game they'd get beaten quite convincingly.
If they were all born 21 years later and came through in the 2010s instead of the 90s it would be a much different story.
- tactics
- strength & conditioning
- fitness

the game has evolved out of sight over the last 20 years.

Prior to flooding an 18 man zones key forwards used to have a paddock to lead into. At the most maybe a spare would drop back to fill the hole.
How many of Lloyds shots on goal came from a lead into space, only having to worry about his direct opponent.

Yeah..their skills back then were so subpar compared to today

 

[bomberman500]

Yeah..their skills back then were so subpar compared to today

strawman much...
Where did I say skills were worse?

what I did imply, however, was that it was easier to hit a target when forwards seldom ventured out of their own 50 to fill holes in a zone.

 

[BrunoV]

If 2000 were to be translated to be our opponent on Friday, to play as it did in 2000, and we had our best team, 2021 team would spank 2000.

That's how much the game has changed. I doubt 2000 would know how to score form half back which is where it would be stuck given how weak the midfield actually was.

 

[Shane Heard]

strawman much...
Where did I say skills were worse?

what I did imply, however, was that it was easier to hit a target when forwards seldom ventured out of their own 50 to fill holes in a zone.

Righto mate..all good

 

[Summer Nights]

I would like to understand better the argument that players now are stronger than they were 20-30 years ago. Taller I get, but they don’t look stronger. In fact, I’ve always felt that there was a minor trade-off in strength as players got fitter. There are of course exceptions; Tom Hawkins

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would be a strength monster in any era. Lean muscle, though, doesn’t appear to be bigger today than it was a generation ago. In fact it generally looks marginally smaller. Players are no less courageous though, I must point out.

 

[faible]

I would like to understand better the argument that players now are stronger than they were 20-30 years ago. Taller I get, but they don’t look stronger. In fact, I’ve always felt that there was a minor trade-off in strength as players got fitter. There are of course exceptions; Tom Hawkins would be a strength monster in any era. Lean muscle, though, doesn’t appear to be bigger today than it was a generation ago. In fact it generally looks marginally smaller. Players are no less courageous though, I must point out.

I think it's more that 'strength' in-game is different to being able to punch out a heavy squat or bench press.

Strength and conditioning is much more specific these days, there's a lot more work on strength through the hips than there was in the past, as opposed to just 'strength'. Added to that is that players are generally bigger these days which tends to come with greater mass even if the talls (IMO) look to be a little lighter by height than they once were due to the running volume.

Dangerfield, for example, is the same height as Jason Dunstall yet plays as a midfielder. Hawkins is almost 3" taller than Lockett, and McKay about 5" taller than Lockett.

Running capacity is much greater on average than it was in the past, but I'd also hazard a guess that when it comes to actual strength on-field in terms of ability to hold position over the ball or stand up in a tackle, that modern players are at least as strong as past players, with a better balance between strength, speed and endurance by virtue of being full time professionals and advancements in sports science.

 

[boncer34]

strawman much...
Where did I say skills were worse?

what I did imply, however, was that it was easier to hit a target when forwards seldom ventured out of their own 50 to fill holes in a zone.

This is exactly right. We hear people bemoan now how players can't hit a target like they used to.

In the old days you put the ball 5m to the left of your leading forward, they can still adjust their lead and grab it in clean air because there was a lot more space.

Now you put the ball 2m to the left of your leading forward and the best they can hope for is to spoil the bloke guarding the space.

 

[Summer Nights]

I think it's more that 'strength' in-game is different to being able to punch out a heavy squat or bench press.

Strength and conditioning is much more specific these days, there's a lot more work on strength through the hips than there was in the past, as opposed to just 'strength'. Added to that is that players are generally bigger these days which tends to come with greater mass even if the talls (IMO) look to be a little lighter by height than they once were due to the running volume.

Dangerfield, for example, is the same height as Jason Dunstall yet plays as a midfielder. Hawkins is almost 3" taller than Lockett, and McKay about 5" taller than Lockett.

Running capacity is much greater on average than it was in the past, but I'd also hazard a guess that when it comes to actual strength on-field in terms of ability to hold position over the ball or stand up in a tackle, that modern players are at least as strong as past players, with a better balance between strength, speed and endurance by virtue of being full time professionals and advancements in sports science.

thanks mate.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Lots of talk - understandably - about full ground, moving zones.

Not as much talk about the handball game that has evolved to beat these defensive systems.

Yes - 2000 would struggle to attack given the full ground press, but they would also struggle to stop the ball and get it back through the midfield.

The dogs handball happy revolution in 2016 basically saved football from the dreary go wide from defence, possess the footy, tick tack up the ground with accurate short kicks Hawthorn style.

Nowdays I am constantly stunned by the ability of footballers to take physical contact, get hands free and use handball to find someone they often can't see. Every week you see the most magical skills in this space if you are looking.

In 2021 Essendon is middle of the road at best in this area - but still a long way ahead of what teams did in 2000.

 

[faible]

Lots of talk - understandably - about full ground, moving zones.

Not as much talk about the handball game that has evolved to beat these defensive systems.

Yes - 2000 would struggle to attack given the full ground press, but they would also struggle to stop the ball and get it back through the midfield.

The dogs handball happy revolution in 2016 basically saved football from the dreary go wide from defence, possess the footy, tick tack up the ground with accurate short kicks Hawthorn style.

Nowdays I am constantly stunned by the ability of footballers to take physical contact, get hands free and use handball to find someone they often can't see. Every week you see the most magical skills in this space if you are looking.

In 2021 Essendon is middle of the road at best in this area - but still a long way ahead of what teams did in 2000.

Parish is lightning by hand, and they're actually handballs too, not 'little gives' a.k.a throws.

 

[Shane Heard]

This is interesting how many here view the greatest side in league history

Let’s look at match ups one on one shall we..because that’s what it’s about.

Here’s the obviously 2000 winners vs their 2021 counterparts


MJ vs Tippa

Solly vs Smith

Fletcher vs 2MP

Wallis vs Hooker

Rama vs Archie

Wellman vs Jones

Hardwick vs Waterboy/Snelling/Ham

Carracella vs Langford

Heffernan vs Cox

Ridley vs Lloyd

Hind vs Boris

Laverde vs Lucas

Heppell vs Barnard

Redman vs Long

Alessio vs Draper

JJ, Misiti, Mercuri, Blumfield, Hird vs

Darcy, Shiel, McGrath, Zak,Stringer

…and Barnes running everywhere vs Zerk/Franga


Not many 2021 winners there I’d say.

 

[faible]

This is interesting how many here view the greatest side in league history

Let’s look at match ups one on one shall we..because that’s what it’s about.

Here’s the obviously 2000 winners vs their 2021 counterparts


MJ vs Tippa

Solly vs Smith

Fletcher vs 2MP

Wallis vs Hooker

Rama vs Archie

Wellman vs Jones

Hardwick vs Waterboy/Snelling/Ham

Carracella vs Langford

Heffernan vs Cox

Ridley vs Lloyd

Hind vs Boris

Laverde vs Lucas

Heppell vs Barnard

Redman vs Long

Alessio vs Draper

JJ, Misiti, Mercuri, Blumfield, Hird vs

Darcy, Shiel, McGrath, Zak,Stringer

…and Barnes running everywhere vs Zerk/Franga


Not many 2021 winners there I’d say.

Yep.

completely rose coloured glasses view of the past.

 

[Shane Heard]

Yep.

It’s just a discussion mate. Don’t get all worked up and upset.

We’re all wrong sometimes about things.

 

[BrunoV]

This is interesting how many here view the greatest side in league history

Let’s look at match ups one on one shall we..because that’s what it’s about.

Here’s the obviously 2000 winners vs their 2021 counterparts


MJ vs Tippa

Solly vs Smith

Fletcher vs 2MP

Wallis vs Hooker

Rama vs Archie

Wellman vs Jones

Hardwick vs Waterboy/Snelling/Ham

Carracella vs Langford

Heffernan vs Cox

Ridley vs Lloyd

Hind vs Boris

Laverde vs Lucas

Heppell vs Barnard

Redman vs Long

Alessio vs Draper

JJ, Misiti, Mercuri, Blumfield, Hird vs

Darcy, Shiel, McGrath, Zak,Stringer

…and Barnes running everywhere vs Zerk/Franga


Not many 2021 winners there I’d say.

Remember the loss to the Dogs.

Even the worst side today plays the sophisticated/structured version of that flood. It upset us in 2000 so there is no reason not to expect that it would upset the 2000 side when implemented by the 2021 wide which is the heart of the issue.

As for what really brought the 2000 side down, it was a weak midfield. That creates 2 problems for the 2000 side playing the way it did, with the inferior strength and conditioning, unable to keep up around the ground, etc, it leaves them playing from half back trying to negotiate a 12 player zone with 3 players in front on Lloyd.

Obviously if the 2000 was a contemporary side it probably wouldn't be a contest. But I don't buy into it being one of the best sides of all time. It has the best record of all time but I wouldn't back that side against the Lions, Cats, Pies or Hawks side post 2007. It couldn't keep up with the midfield game which left it unable to compete meaningfully from 2003 to 2005 when the champions were all still champions.

It's much like 2007 and 2017, the competition was weak but the differences is that premiers went on to establish themselves and Geelong, in particular, fended off 2 really strong side to win 2009 (the Saints who reinvented defence) and the Pies (who revolutionised power athleticism by using extreme numbers of interchange).

 

[faible]

We’re all wrong sometimes about things.

Yes. Like you're wrong here.

The 2000 side had the best individual season of any team in the AFL era, they were head and shoulders above the rest of the league that year.

They aren't therefore forever and a day the best actual side ever, except in the minds of people that can't understand that the game moves on.

You're trying to compare 1-on-1 matchups, when teams don't play 1-on-1 anymore.

Lloyd might beat Ridley in a standalone 1-on-1 marking contest - and even that's arguable given Ridley & Lloyd are the same height and Ridley is very good overhead - but there'd be more than one defender competing for the ball coming in. That's if the 2000 midfield could even keep their hands on the ball for more than a second or two under the pressure modern teams produce.

We can acknowledge the greatest of the team in their era, whilst acknowledging that time moves on and the game progresses. Something you seem unable to comprehend, let alone discuss.

You're coming across like an old man stuck in the past.

 

[scyth]

Alessio vs Draper

JJ, Misiti, Mercuri, Blumfield, Hird vs

Darcy, Shiel, McGrath, Zak,Stringer

I would do unpublishable things to get the opportunity to see this.

 

[faible]

I would do unpublishable things to get the opportunity to see this.

Alessio would probably win the tap, Stringer would probably leave the contest with the ball.

 

[Shane Heard]

The facts are this…our 2021 squad has done f-all…beaten no one significant by any great margin except WC in Perth…then destroyed by Tigers the next week.

We are a developing side with massive weaknesses in our regular on field selections with Smith, Langford, Ham, Snelling, 2MP, Hooker, Gwelf and Waterboy all being underwhelming in many many games this year.

None of those 2000 GF side members ever had a bad game that year.

They destroyed everyone with 42 point season average winning margin in 2000.

The bulldogs vs ess 2000 Plough coached loss was him putting 15 god damn players in our forward line in the last qrt to hold us off.

Dim wits here who mention that game have obviously never watched a reply of the entire game. They just rely on urban myths that we were beaten by today’s “ modern tactics”.

It’s pathetic really…