List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[Original Moody Blue]

His kicking is better than Mitchell's

Just stick with the list we have and we can look forward to a top 4 draft pick each season. That is about as close as we are going to get with anything to do with top 4.

 

[Arr0w]

Just stick with the list we have and we can look forward to a top 4 draft pick each season. That is about as close as we are going to get with anything to do with top 4.

Okay, we can continue to discuss it each year, I will put you in the " closer to a spoon than finals" clan

 

[Ash24]

The addition of Parks this week hopefully frees up Stocker into the midfield. Once Plowman comes back into the side (hopefully next week), we could potentially have both Doc and Saad on the wings.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Okay, we can continue to discuss it each year, I will put you in the " closer to a spoon than finals" clan

You believe this list is one turn from doing something spectacular ala Richmond.
Our forward line is our strength, when everyone is kicking well.
Our midfield is like my horse racing tips. Promise a lot but rarely deliver.
Our defence is all over the shop, and is feeling the loss of Simpson and his ability to get them organised and in the right spots. Docherty has been struggling this year with the added pressure on him.

I see Kennedy has been promoted against his old team. Are they seriously expecting him to do something?? He is a very serviceable ressies player, but just does not have the pace to match it with the big boys. Anyway, let's see what happens on the weekend. Why not give Ramsay a go and let's see what he offers?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

On the flip side of the coin, many here (esp the staunch, stalwart VFL watchers) who said Matthew Owies will never cut the mustard, be up to AFL standard.

Feels like we have been getting good value of late with mature age players in the draft and developing them (Gibbo, Cotters, Owies and Parks etc)

I want our footy club to draft and develop more future Sam Walsh type kids from our own development program, not keep raiding other clubs.

I like Mitch McGovern, I really do, but no doubt that was a bad trade for us, both on what we gave up and a SC level.

Our lack of quality developing and nurturing draft picks (esp 2nd rounders and beyond) is the biggest thing holding this club back, more than so called perceived coaching issues.

It's a real source of frustration for me that TDK aside, we have not been able to do the same with our younger draft picks, aside from Sam Walsh in recent years.

FWIW I always felt there was something special at Owies, even when playing flat at VFL level, I just knew there was a decent AFL player in the making, given the opportunity.

The biggest thing holding our footy club back (and probably for over 20 years now) is our lack of quality young player/draft pick development more so than any so called coaching issues.

Once (and I firmly believe it will happen sooner rather than later), we can get that part of our footy department sorted, we will be going places as a football club.

No more quick fixes, no more spending big money and or picks on Saad and or Williams types, let's build and develop from within.. This is how we will grow and develop and nurture as a footy club.

Yep, we're forever hunting that one or two players who will tip us over the line into premiership contenders. It's not going to happen because the players are never the perfect player for what we want them to be, all the while others drop away or retire.

For the most part, our lack of ambition to really attack the 'meat' of the draft has been really deflating. If even an armchair critic like myself can see that our recruiting lacks ambition and scope then we must be doing something wrong. All it takes is one or two extra draft picks utilised each year from roughly the second round. If just over half of these (or more) worked out then our list would look a lot better. However, the talent is not going to be evenly spread each year and they aren't all going to be players drafted in order of our most needed positions; that's not how the draft works. We need to go the hardest at drafts in which we think the players are going to be there and need to learn (or relearn) the art of trading up and down the order, even if that means letting some players go. We have to learn all that and learn it quickly.

Some of what we have done that hasn't worked out is just bad luck but a lot of it isn't. A lot of it has been pressure to improve in the short term and the rest of it is too heavy reliance on pot luck - it's not going to just happen for us.

 

[BlueJet]

Wonder if you'd mind explaining the history of this "media hatred" of us you speak of. I know it doesn't exist, just interested in what your reasoning is?

We've been a shit football club, the coverage reflects that & it hurts their feelings.

 

[AB_Blue]

after weits, harry & vanilla I can't see why owies wouldn't be the next best thing that's happened for us this season - in a pretty poor season it has to be said

I think he’s 3rd (or 4th) in the goal kicking for us with 10 goals. Is our most accurate set shot of anyone under 6ft 2

I’m wrapped with his output


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[katmanblue]

Yep, we're forever hunting that one or two players who will tip us over the line into premiership contenders. It's not going to happen because the players are never the perfect player for what we want them to be, all the while others drop away or retire.

For the most part, our lack of ambition to really attack the 'meat' of the draft has been really deflating. If even an armchair critic like myself can see that our recruiting lacks ambition and scope then we must be doing something wrong. All it takes is one or two extra draft picks utilised each year from roughly the second round. If just over half of these (or more) worked out then our list would look a lot better. However, the talent is not going to be evenly spread each year and they aren't all going to be players drafted in order of our most needed positions; that's not how the draft works. We need to go the hardest at drafts in which we think the players are going to be there and need to learn (or relearn) the art of trading up and down the order, even if that means letting some players go. We have to learn all that and learn it quickly.

Some of what we have done that hasn't worked out is just bad luck but a lot of it isn't. A lot of it has been pressure to improve in the short term and the rest of it is too heavy reliance on pot luck - it's not going to just happen for us.

It's never going to happen even if they are the perfect player because when they get to us the general malaise of our group effects them too. Only way out for us is to lift that. Increase standards and hold each other to them. Rather than just paying lip service.

Minimum standards of fitness, effort and conduct need to be adhered to religiously. No exceptions. This includes everyone in the football department. Players, coaches, physios, selectors. Everyone.

We are coming from a long way back in this regard.

 

[BlueBlood15]

It's never going to happen even if they are the perfect player because when they get to us the general malaise of our group effects them too. Only way out for us is to lift that. Increase standards and hold each other to them. Rather than just paying lip service.

Minimum standards of fitness, effort and conduct need to be adhered to religiously. No exceptions. This includes everyone in the football department. Players, coaches, physios, selectors. Everyone.

We are coming from a long way back in this regard.

Agreed.
We need to get our house in order by lifting the standards internally and level of core competitiveness. Starts with the players driving this but coaches also have to demand it.
If we can do this, we will get so much more out of our current list and then be able to confidently recruit players into a system that will maximise their value.
Until that point, recruits will just be lowered down to our current standards and we will be bemoaning how they are not contributing enough relative to expectation.
Review must address culture and setting and adherence to standards at the club.

 

[katmanblue]

Agreed.
We need to get our house in order by lifting the standards internally and level of core competitiveness. Starts with the players driving this but coaches also have to demand it.
If we can do this, we will get so much more out of our current list and then be able to confidently recruit players into a system that will maximise their value.
Until that point, recruits will just be lowered down to our current standards and we will be bemoaning how they are not contributing enough relative to expectation.
Review must address culture and setting and adherence to standards at the club.

When the co-captains are putting in subpar defensive efforts, how can they demand more from others?

 

[BlueBlood15]

When the co-captains are putting in subpar defensive efforts, how can they demand more from others?

Short answer is they can’t. This is where the coaches and head of football need to come in over the top but they haven’t shown the ability to do so. This needs to be addressed as part of the review.
I see the Murphy dropping as a positive for standards. Zero physicality from him vs the Eagles but that’s just the tip of the iceberg in terms of our competitiveness issues and standards. A lot more needs to be done to fix these issues.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Agreed.
We need to get our house in order by lifting the standards internally and level of core competitiveness. Starts with the players driving this but coaches also have to demand it.
If we can do this, we will get so much more out of our current list and then be able to confidently recruit players into a system that will maximise their value.
Until that point, recruits will just be lowered down to our current standards and we will be bemoaning how they are not contributing enough relative to expectation.
Review must address culture and setting and adherence to standards at the club.

Chicken versus egg at best, though, really. The likes of Weitering, Walsh and McKay were always going to make it, others not so much, and you can see it a mile away. The players who make up a side go quite a way into making up 'said' culture. I've always thought the likes of Dow and SPS had more in them, just not enough in their own right, nor as part of a collective, to sway the argument in favour of the idea that there's nothing wrong with the direction of our list management. Some others, not mentioned, should never have been in the mix to begin with.

 

[ctwenty1]

Chicken versus egg, though, really. Weitering, Walsh and McKay were always going to make it, others not so much, and you can see it a mile away. The players who make up a side go quite a way into making up 'said' culture. I've always thought the likes of Dow and SPS had more in them, just not enough in their own right, nor as part of a collective, to justify the direction of our list management.

why were weits, walsh and McKay always going to make it? People on this board wanted to trade weits in his third or fourth year because he was a bust. McKay has just now passed Charlie in games played despite being drafted in the same year - and as we know Charlie hasn't played for nearly two full years. Not all early draft picks make it, and it generally takes some time before we know they definitely wont.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

We've been a sh*t football club, the coverage reflects that & it hurts their feelings.

If by 'feelings' you mean 'nerve endings' then you are correct. However, I'm not in the least bit 'upset' by the negative press, in fact, there should be more of it but it doesn't have to be done with a sneer all the time.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

why were weits, walsh and McKay always going to make it? People on this board wanted to trade weits in his third or fourth year because he was a bust. McKay has just now passed Charlie in games played despite being drafted in the same year - and as we know Charlie hasn't played for nearly two full years. Not all early draft picks make it, and it generally takes some time before we know they definitely wont.

I tell a lie, more to the point, it's not so much 'always going to make it' as much as 'always had a greater chance of making it'. Just because it was a common opinion to write Weitering off a few years back, doesn't inherently validate their point.

There's a lot to be said about gut instinct, which is just another way of saying that there is some insight to be had beyond the mere processing of measurable facts. I'm sure the best recruiters in the AFL have it. They have a way of judging the overall package and not just the stats sheet. However, it's not just that; you also don't have to be Einstein to understand that dealing in minimal positional requirements is not a good way to build a side that will defeat your opponents more often than not. It's not just 'can they play?' that's in question, it's 'can they play as well as the alternatives that were available to us'.

You can deal with the ones that don't make it if you have enough coming through to compensate, we don't and I think I have reason to believe that it's not all about development.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Yep, we're forever hunting that one or two players who will tip us over the line into premiership contenders. It's not going to happen because the players are never the perfect player for what we want them to be, all the while others drop away or retire.

For the most part, our lack of ambition to really attack the 'meat' of the draft has been really deflating. If even an armchair critic like myself can see that our recruiting lacks ambition and scope then we must be doing something wrong. All it takes is one or two extra draft picks utilised each year from roughly the second round. If just over half of these (or more) worked out then our list would look a lot better. However, the talent is not going to be evenly spread each year and they aren't all going to be players drafted in order of our most needed positions; that's not how the draft works. We need to go the hardest at drafts in which we think the players are going to be there and need to learn (or relearn) the art of trading up and down the order, even if that means letting some players go. We have to learn all that and learn it quickly.

Some of what we have done that hasn't worked out is just bad luck but a lot of it isn't. A lot of it has been pressure to improve in the short term and the rest of it is too heavy reliance on pot luck - it's not going to just happen for us.

It's never going to happen even if they are the perfect player because when they get to us the general malaise of our group effects them too. Only way out for us is to lift that. Increase standards and hold each other to them. Rather than just paying lip service.

Minimum standards of fitness, effort and conduct need to be adhered to religiously. No exceptions. This includes everyone in the football department. Players, coaches, physios, selectors. Everyone.

We are coming from a long way back in this regard.

GCS should have a quiet word with their coach. He looks like he hits the donuts & soft drinks pretty hard while analyzing games. He is surrounded by elite athletes, state-of-the-art gym equipment, an oval, dieticians and he can still look the way he does as the head coach of an AFL team... Reminds me of the days of Mick Nolan who Lou Richards named the Galloping Gasometer. One of the great names ever invented.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

GCS should have a quiet word with their coach. He looks like he hits the donuts & soft drinks pretty hard while analyzing games. He is surrounded by elite athletes, state-of-the-art gym equipment, an oval, dieticians and he can still look the way he does as the head coach of an AFL team... Reminds me of the days of Mick Nolan who Lou Richards named the Galloping Gasometer. One of the great names ever invented.

lol what an odd thing to say, I don't care if they have to helicopter in my clubs coach to the coaches box as long as he wins games/flags for the club.

 

[Team DJ]

Trade: SPS R4 Pick -> Freo: R2 Pick

Retire: Murphy Betts Levi

Delist (2 of): Kennedy Newnes OMac

4x List Spots Open:
Draft - 2x Wingman 2x KPD

 

[Blue Pride]

I’d look to offload Docherty and Newman. Replace them with two midfielders.
Docherty would have value to a team like Geelong.
If Cripps wants to go I’d let him. I’d try and get Green from GWS as his replacement.
I’d chase Cerra at the right price too.
I’d swap next years first round pick for another this year, then keep doing the same. Demons live in first round debt year to year.

 

[azzablue16]

North Melbourne should make Harry McKay an offer he can’t refuse

Yes, they’ll have to pay him overs, but North Melbourne should launch a “godfather” offer at Carlton’s Harry McKay.

www.theage.com.au

This has always worried me as a possibility.. and if i am list manager at North I would be doing exactly as Carey suggest throwing everything.. They can build a side and a culture on the back of the McKay's at each end of the ground.. would be a huge marketing boost and something to sell the members..

If it were to play out, North have the 1st pick in the PSD which no doubt cheapens his trade value.. and North will be reluctant to give up pick 1, and might have to accept a future 1st and some loose change.

One thing is for sure , whatever Carey says do the opposite

 

[BluesTragic]

What a heap of junk list we have at Carlton.....for the first time ever I’m actually embarrassed to say I support this football club


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[mjonc43]

A little bit of an overreaction. The players aren’t invested, have a game plan that isn’t working, being played out of position. We have a few we all know won’t be here next year for various reasons, but it can turn quickly if we get this football department sorted.


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[COBALT BLUE]

This season has seen Teague post honeymoon and on a tougher draw...a few things havnt fallen our way,its been tough...overall the group has been ok,they have been competitive,you have to see where they have come from and our list depth in some areas especially the midfield is worse than many might presume..We could simply not get elite core mid mids in the door,we ticked a few solid boxes in other areas but still no trump card for Cripps to work with

we are so desperate we are still getting slaughtered with Dow week after week...put it on paper what that actually equates to and its pretty dramatic ,,only because we are desperate to develope and do not have much other option anyway

i find it quite disheartening,Dow wont be the elite we require anyway,he will be good mid depth as Ed has been...

Lets hope

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

For the first time I am actually starting to think we should consider trading/letting Cripps walk to free agency.. We would be guaranteed a 1st round compo pick likely to be around pick 6.. We would then have picks 5 & 6 and could reset with Walsh, McKay & Weiters as our key pillars in our rebuild..

 

[CarltonBlooz]

For the first time I am actually starting to think we should consider trading/letting him walk to free agency.. We would be guaranteed a 1st round compo pick likely to be around pick 6.. We would then have picks 5 & 6 and could reset with Walsh, McKay & Weiters as our key pillars in our rebuild..

Supposedly locked in already for 4 years, not going anywhere, odd it hasn't been finalized yet, but assuming dollarydoos related or something similar.