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thylacine60

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Jun 4, 2006
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SPS: On this board he was often referred to in those terms, which, for a player that played a few good games - the hype around him was excessive.
Parish: was at worst a solid contributor and wasn't considered a write off prior to taking his game to another level.
I will respond this one extra time before coming for you with a hickory handled mattock...........all of sps's support was qualified with "if onlys" & "wait untils"
 

Justnetime

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May 18, 2021
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Some have mentioned Stocker into the midfield
I think his best role for the team is hbf his long accurate kicking in the latter half of the year was a weapon
Reminded me of Rich hate the term but quarter back like
Doc has got a bit of speed better lockdown but his kicking is so so
Saad is good kick but runs more
Williams has speed and a good kick also
But I think Stocker has more penetration and is a better decision maker
That’s not to say Stocker can’t be a great midfielder his hands are slick but the team will get more benefit short to midterm in his current role
The other thing about Stocker is ground level contested ball. He is really comfortable in that space and has the strength in the legs to hold his ground. We need that in our back 6/7. With Jones gone we have too many receivers around the ball.
 

DangerousD

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sps was never considered a star - nor should parish have been early days.............
Ok ok, star was not the right word, in terms of first year draftee output, he was top shelf, outside of Walsh, we haven’t had a midfielder player get near his output and people call him a dud, as you said, please.
 

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therubbernub

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Darcy Parish was a star from his first season, what is it with Carlton people saying opposition draftees who averaged more than 20 possessions in his first season are crap?
He wasnt a star, if anything he was a bit over rated early days. But his 2021 proved that his early ratings were correct
 

gbatman

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O'Brien has great skills, particularly his kicking. If you can get him going you have a pretty good player to work with. He improved last year, he was good in the last month so he's trending in the right direction.

He's like a lot of our list, they have talent, but they lack other things which can be developed and can come good over time.

It may be as simple as conceding with Dow and O'Brien that they are slow developers and need to be held onto until they are 24. The thing is we may not want to and other players may come through and push them out before then. But we have come this far so may as well go all the way.

Would be great to have a guy who can run like that and kick like that getting plenty of it and playing consistently and eventually doing the other parts of the game well such as breaking even and winning contests.
 
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gbatman

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The other thing about Stocker is ground level contested ball. He is really comfortable in that space and has the strength in the legs to hold his ground. We need that in our back 6/7. With Jones gone we have too many receivers around the ball.
Williams really important here, it showed in this area how we were lacking this when he was out.
 

Jimmae

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Surely, we're taking 2 picks tomorrow and holding Cottrell off until ssp.

Lunacy not too.
The conjecture is that the paperwork has been done and so it has to be considered locked in? But I can't imagine we'd have locked in rookie pre-listings already.
 

swuzzlebubble

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The conjecture is that the paperwork has been done and so it has to be considered locked in? But I can't imagine we'd have locked in rookie pre-listings already.
Fyi..
The process this year appears to be that they take their live selections and then 'pass'. Then after Day 2 of the draft there's a rookie upgrade period at 10pm for an hour (the same time as another delisted free agency period).
 

swuzzlebubble

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As others have said, it's Kennedy and Honey being upgraded to the senior list that is taking 2 draft picks.

I got it wrong too. LOB/Cotters offered rookie spots.

But a shuffle may still occur nonetheless!
We would need to not do BOTH a rookie upgrade and downgrade to get the extra pick. So eg both Young and Cottrell impacted
 

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Jimmae

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If that's the case, then we've got no issue with taking two live picks.

We make those selections, we upgrade our rookies, we delist Jones to free up the list position for Cottrell. If we can't delist Jones, then we make him inactive and get Cottrell via SSP.
 

Bletch

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Dec 8, 2020
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What is clear:
We have 3 spots open on our list (Primary + Rookie A)
- We have committed two of those places to re-rookie LOB & Cotts, leaving just one spot open.
We have 3 picks at the National Draft.
- We have committed to using two of those picks to upgrade Kennedy & Honey
This leaves one ND pick (25) to fill the one list spot open.

What is not clear:
A. Can we ignore the rookie commitment? (i.e. not re-rookie one of LOB or Cotts - prob Cotts)
- would need player approval or potentially risk legal action
- not certain of AFL stance
- might not play out well on club's reputation
- if we can do this (and perhaps later use an SSP to bring Cotts back), it opens up a second list spot, but does NOT give us an extra pick at National Draft

B. Can we ignore rookie upgrade commitment? (i.e. not upgrade one of Kennedy or Honey)
- We "nominated" Kennedy & Honey earlier this month - is that binding? Dunno.
- The rookie upgrades don't occur during the ND, but are "confirmed" on Thursday night after the ND:
Thursday 25 November at 9.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period opens; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) commences
Thursday 25 November at 10.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period closes; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) closes
- would likely need player approval
- not certain of AFL stance, even Lore is not sure about this (see discussion with swuzzlebubble)
- if we can do this, it will free up a second pick at the National Draft, but does not give us an extra list spot

Options:
1. Almost certainly we don't do either A or B above, and just use pick 25, or trade it up or down, but still just one pick.

2. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP and use his spot on the rookie draft for either a selection in the Delisted Free Agency period (3), the PSD (Friday), or in the rookie draft (Friday). But not the National Draft.

3. If we can (and want to) do both 'A' and 'B'. Keep Honey on the Rookie list. Promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Use both 25 and 63 in National Draft.

4. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Trade pick 25 for two lower picks. Use the two lower picks for two players at the ND. Still use 63 and 78 for rookie upgrades. Use only one pick at the Rookie Draft.

I think that's it. Clear as mud, right?

Then, we also pick up Dom Akuei as our 2nd Cat-B rookie Friday afternoon. His selection does not affect any of the above options.
 

Arr0w

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Correct me if I am wrong. Prior to Jones retiring, we had 3 list spots available. We have stated that we would elevate Kennedy and Honey and rookie LOB and Cotts, allowing 1 eligible pick in the draft. With Jones retiring, we can add 2 players to the list.

Now, one of Kennedy or Honey can remain on the rookie list, they are still eligible. This allows us to take 2 selections at the draft without needing AFL approval.

When the draft is essentially over, we elevate one of Kennedy or Honey, keeping the other on the rookie list. We add one of LOB or Cotts to the rookie list, while the other gets a SSP contract
 

Ash24

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What is clear:
We have 3 spots open on our list (Primary + Rookie A)
- We have committed two of those places to re-rookie LOB & Cotts, leaving just one spot open.
We have 3 picks at the National Draft.
- We have committed to using two of those picks to upgrade Kennedy & Honey
This leaves one ND pick (25) to fill the one list spot open.

What is not clear:
A. Can we ignore the rookie commitment? (i.e. not re-rookie one of LOB or Cotts - prob Cotts)
- would need player approval or potentially risk legal action
- not certain of AFL stance
- might not play out well on club's reputation
- if we can do this (and perhaps later use an SSP to bring Cotts back), it opens up a second list spot, but does NOT give us an extra pick at National Draft

B. Can we ignore rookie upgrade commitment? (i.e. not upgrade one of Kennedy or Honey)
- We "nominated" Kennedy & Honey earlier this month - is that binding? Dunno.
- The rookie upgrades don't occur during the ND, but are "confirmed" on Thursday night after the ND:
Thursday 25 November at 9.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period opens; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) commences
Thursday 25 November at 10.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period closes; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) closes
- would likely need player approval
- not certain of AFL stance, even Lore is not sure about this (see discussion with swuzzlebubble)
- if we can do this, it will free up a second pick at the National Draft, but does not give us an extra list spot

Options:
1. Almost certainly we don't do either A or B above, and just use pick 25, or trade it up or down, but still just one pick.

2. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP and use his spot on the rookie draft for either a selection in the Delisted Free Agency period (3), the PSD (Friday), or in the rookie draft (Friday). But not the National Draft.

3. If we can (and want to) do both 'A' and 'B'. Keep Honey on the Rookie list. Promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Use both 25 and 63 in National Draft.

4. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Trade pick 25 for two lower picks. Use the two lower picks for two players at the ND. Still use 63 and 78 for rookie upgrades. Use only one pick at the Rookie Draft.

I think that's it. Clear as mud, right?

Then, we also pick up Dom Akuei as our 2nd Cat-B rookie Friday afternoon. His selection does not affect any of the above options.
The way I see it, it would be highly unprofessional if we don't re-rookie one of LOB/Cottrell especially after they were training with us on Monday, so at the very least we'd have to pick them up in the SSP.

So assuming that we do re-rookie both of them, we also must upgrade Kennedy/Honey to the senior list because we would have no CAT A rookie spots available.

Option 1 seems the most likely out of what you've written.

Option 2 and 3 are similar (which is also what Arr0w kind of wrote just above) and would technically make sense but I'd like to get a few players to train with us over pre-season and then fight it out for a spot in the SSP (preferably a mature aged KPD), rather than draft an 18 year old in a speculative selection with pick 64.

Option 3 is really interesting and I've never thought about it. Plus, I don't see why we would need the AFL's approval to do so. Keeping my hopes low but it's definately a good idea.
 

Arr0w

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Fantastic that we have all all this debate about list spots but reality is we have made commitments and the AFL hasn't helped us out on the Jones retirement timing.

Pick 25 (we might downgrade slightly this year to pick up a F3)
Honey upgrade
Kennedy upgrade

LOB and Cotters rookie upgrades
Akeui Cat B
Jones replacement SSP
Think this is the closest to reality, but I would hope that we consider a couple of decent talls at 25, who I believe are in a group of about 10 prospects of all types
 

Bletch

Team Captain
Dec 8, 2020
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Correct me if I am wrong. Prior to Jones retiring, we had 3 list spots available. We have stated that we would elevate Kennedy and Honey and rookie LOB and Cotts, allowing 1 eligible pick in the draft. With Jones retiring, we can add 2 players to the list.
Jones' spot on the list isn't freed. Last chance to remove him from the list was the week before he retired. If he was free, yes, we'd have 4 list spots available, and that would have been reflected in the AFL's final draft order.

Now, one of Kennedy or Honey can remain on the rookie list, they are still eligible. This allows us to take 2 selections at the draft without needing AFL approval.

When the draft is essentially over, we elevate one of Kennedy or Honey, keeping the other on the rookie list. We add one of LOB or Cotts to the rookie list, while the other gets a SSP contract
Do you know that they can remain on the rookie list? Essentially, you're describing option 3 on the list in my previous post.

The question I have is, back on Nov 11, the AFL issued a list of nominated "Rookie Upgrades" for each club. This included Honey & Kennedy. To what extent is this binding? I don't know, and I haven't seen anything from the AFL either way.

However, both Cook and Lloyd have said the only option they've got for Jones' replacement is via the SSP.
 

The Blue Weirdo

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Jan 16, 2019
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Think this is the closest to reality, but I would hope that we consider a couple of decent talls at 25, who I believe are in a group of about 10 prospects of all types
I'm hoping for Aleer, good long term Jonesy replacement. He's pretty fast with a great leap. Like to see him, Akuei and Mirkov develop together in our reserves.
 

4flagsin5yrs

Team Captain
Dec 30, 2020
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Correct me if I am wrong. Prior to Jones retiring, we had 3 list spots available. We have stated that we would elevate Kennedy and Honey and rookie LOB and Cotts, allowing 1 eligible pick in the draft. With Jones retiring, we can add 2 players to the list.

Now, one of Kennedy or Honey can remain on the rookie list, they are still eligible. This allows us to take 2 selections at the draft without needing AFL approval.

When the draft is essentially over, we elevate one of Kennedy or Honey, keeping the other on the rookie list. We add one of LOB or Cotts to the rookie list, while the other gets a SSP contract
That's how I see it too.
 

Stamos

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What is clear:
We have 3 spots open on our list (Primary + Rookie A)
- We have committed two of those places to re-rookie LOB & Cotts, leaving just one spot open.
We have 3 picks at the National Draft.
- We have committed to using two of those picks to upgrade Kennedy & Honey
This leaves one ND pick (25) to fill the one list spot open.

What is not clear:
A. Can we ignore the rookie commitment? (i.e. not re-rookie one of LOB or Cotts - prob Cotts)
- would need player approval or potentially risk legal action
- not certain of AFL stance
- might not play out well on club's reputation
- if we can do this (and perhaps later use an SSP to bring Cotts back), it opens up a second list spot, but does NOT give us an extra pick at National Draft

B. Can we ignore rookie upgrade commitment? (i.e. not upgrade one of Kennedy or Honey)
- We "nominated" Kennedy & Honey earlier this month - is that binding? Dunno.
- The rookie upgrades don't occur during the ND, but are "confirmed" on Thursday night after the ND:
Thursday 25 November at 9.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period opens; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) commences
Thursday 25 November at 10.30pm – Rookie Upgrade Period closes; AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (3) closes
- would likely need player approval
- not certain of AFL stance, even Lore is not sure about this (see discussion with swuzzlebubble)
- if we can do this, it will free up a second pick at the National Draft, but does not give us an extra list spot

Options:
1. Almost certainly we don't do either A or B above, and just use pick 25, or trade it up or down, but still just one pick.

2. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP and use his spot on the rookie draft for either a selection in the Delisted Free Agency period (3), the PSD (Friday), or in the rookie draft (Friday). But not the National Draft.

3. If we can (and want to) do both 'A' and 'B'. Keep Honey on the Rookie list. Promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Use both 25 and 63 in National Draft.

4. If we can (and want to) do 'A' only, then promise to pick up Cotts in the SSP. Trade pick 25 for two lower picks. Use the two lower picks for two players at the ND. Still use 63 and 78 for rookie upgrades. Use only one pick at the Rookie Draft.

I think that's it. Clear as mud, right?

Then, we also pick up Dom Akuei as our 2nd Cat-B rookie Friday afternoon. His selection does not affect any of the above options.
This isn't quite right.
We have 3 list spots available, that's with Jones on the list and after Kennedy and Honey Upgraded to the Senior List.
We have the choice for all 3 of those spots to be on the Senior List.

We could choose to take 2 in the ND, and make Cottrell wait for the SSP rather than the Rookie Draft, although all suggestions are that we will only take 1 in the ND, LOB and Cottrell in the RD, then someone else SSP
 

Arr0w

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Jones' spot on the list isn't freed. Last chance to remove him from the list was the week before he retired. If he was free, yes, we'd have 4 list spots available, and that would have been reflected in the AFL's final draft order.


Do you know that they can remain on the rookie list? Essentially, you're describing option 3 on the list in my previous post.

The question I have is, back on Nov 11, the AFL issued a list of nominated "Rookie Upgrades" for each club. This included Honey & Kennedy. To what extent is this binding? I don't know, and I haven't seen anything from the AFL either way.

However, both Cook and Lloyd have said the only option they've got for Jones' replacement is via the SSP.
Jones's spot doesn't need to be freed up now for us to take 2 picks in the draft, as Kennedy was placed on the rookie list last year and Honey has only been a rookie for 2 years, so they don't need to be upgraded


My understanding, is that rookie nominations aren't binding, but I could be wrong
 

Bletch

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This isn't quite right.
We have 3 list spots available, that's with Jones on the list and after Kennedy and Honey Upgraded to the Senior List.
We have the choice for all 3 of those spots to be on the Senior List.

We could choose to take 2 in the ND, and make Cottrell wait for the SSP rather than the Rookie Draft, although all suggestions are that we will only take 1 in the ND, LOB and Cottrell in the RD, then someone else SSP
I see where you are coming from.

Now: 33 on senior list (inc. Jones); 6 Rookies (inc. Honey/Kennedy, not inc. LOB/Cotts). 1 Cat-B.

Honey/Kennedy as nominated upgrades would make it 35/4. Max senior is 38. 38-35=3. Right?

My assumption was the number of draft picks also took into account the number of slots free across both senior and rookie i.e. 33+6=39. 42-39=3. That might be wrong!!

Either way though, we have a maximum of 3 picks available in the ND, and we've committed to using two of them to upgrade rookies. So while you are right that we have room on the Senior list to take two in the ND (or even 3), we don't have enough draft picks.

So, if we want an extra pick ==> either don't upgrade Honey or Kennedy, or trade for an extra pick (if possible). Then also not re-rookie Cotts.

My understanding, is that rookie nominations aren't binding, but I could be wrong
I don't know - I can't find anything on this either way.
 

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