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List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

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The way I look at it, you need 2 elite A-graders at each main position. All the others don't need to be flashy players, just guys who will do their job and play a role week in, week out. B-graders are totally fine to have.


Key defenders - Weiters/Jones
General defenders - Doc/Saad

Inside mids - Cripps/Williams
Outside mids - Walsh/???
Ruck - Pittonet

Key forwards - Harry/???
General forwards - Martin/Gibbons (has looked better than Fisher so far IMO)


With this model you're able to see exactly where the deficiencies are in our list. I honestly think we have the talent to be a potential top 6 team, but some of the pieces haven't come together yet.

Will Gov bounce back? Will JSOS continue his great pre-season form? Will Cunners/Dow/Stocker/Cottrell take the next step? It's a big year for all of them...
 

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Ash24 said:
The way I look at it, you need 2 elite A-graders at each main position. All the others don't need to be flashy players, just guys who will do their job and play a role week in, week out. B-graders are totally fine to have.


Key defenders - Weiters/Jones
General defenders - Doc/Saad

Inside mids - Cripps/Williams
Outside mids - Walsh/???
Ruck - Pittonet

Key forwards - Harry/???
General forwards - Martin/Gibbons (has looked better than Fisher so far IMO)


With this model you're able to see exactly where the deficiencies are in our list. I honestly think we have the talent to be a potential top 6 team, but some of the pieces haven't come together yet.

Will Gov bounce back? Will JSOS continue his great pre-season form? Will Cunners/Dow/Stocker/Cottrell take the next step? It's a big year for all of them...
Click to expand...
I'm gonna say it, Gov to have a breakout season [emoji1696][emoji1690]

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk
 
Ash24 said:
The way I look at it, you need 2 elite A-graders at each main position. All the others don't need to be flashy players, just guys who will do their job and play a role week in, week out. B-graders are totally fine to have.


Key defenders - Weiters/Jones
General defenders - Doc/Saad

Inside mids - Cripps/Williams
Outside mids - Walsh/???
Ruck - Pittonet

Key forwards - Harry/???
General forwards - Martin/Gibbons (has looked better than Fisher so far IMO)


With this model you're able to see exactly where the deficiencies are in our list. I honestly think we have the talent to be a potential top 6 team, but some of the pieces haven't come together yet.

Will Gov bounce back? Will JSOS continue his great pre-season form? Will Cunners/Dow/Stocker/Cottrell take the next step? It's a big year for all of them...
Click to expand...
you’ve said “we need about 13 elite a graders at each main position”.

It’s semantics, but that probably involves us having 1/3 to 1/4 or there about a of all the ‘elite a graders’ in the comp, depending on how liberal you are with the label.


How many a grade key rucks are there? Probably just Gawn, Grundy & Naitanui.

What about key defenders? Moore, Harris, Weitering, McGovern, May, perhaps Balta soon.

If we could get 13 in the one team we’d be a chance to go undefeated for multiple consecutive seasons
 
Ash24 said:
The way I look at it, you need 2 elite A-graders at each main position. All the others don't need to be flashy players, just guys who will do their job and play a role week in, week out. B-graders are totally fine to have.


Key defenders - Weiters/Jones
General defenders - Doc/Saad

Inside mids - Cripps/Williams
Outside mids - Walsh/???
Ruck - Pittonet

Key forwards - Harry/???
General forwards - Martin/Gibbons (has looked better than Fisher so far IMO)


With this model you're able to see exactly where the deficiencies are in our list. I honestly think we have the talent to be a potential top 6 team, but some of the pieces haven't come together yet.

Will Gov bounce back? Will JSOS continue his great pre-season form? Will Cunners/Dow/Stocker/Cottrell take the next step? It's a big year for all of them...
Click to expand...

On form and where they are in their careers
A Graders - Weitering, Saad, and Walsh
Potential A Graders - McKay, C.Curnow, Fisher, Martin, TDK, Fogarty & Williams

Lost Form A Graders - Cripps & Docherty
B Graders - Silvagni, Jones, Gibbons, Newman & Plowman

C Graders - SPS, Dow, McGovern, Pittonet, Williamson, Setterfield & Cuningham

Last Legs - Betts, E.Curnow, Murphy, Casboult, Newnes, McDonald , Kennedy & O'Brien

Kids (Could be Anything) - Stocker, Carroll, Kemp, Parks, Durdin, Philp, Ramsey, Honey, Owies & Cottrell

This is only where I see they are at now, hoping it will all change by the end of the year
 
thebluenewdeal said:
Watching the preseason and the last 2 games has opened my mind up on where our list is at.
It seems that Silvagni opted to go for quantity of quality over precise selections in the draft. In other words, he basically tried to gather as many first round draft picks to rebuild a team in a tradition sense. I think it was the right move only in the beginning of the rebuild because that netted us Weitering, McKay, and Charlie (who I think is far from done due to the new rules). That’s the spine.
However, why in the holy f**k was the recruiting team still going that route and wasting top picks on midfielders that do not complement the most important factor of the team.

PATRICK CRIPPS

We kept drafting accumulators and contested ball winners when we have the best player in the comp who does exactly that. Dow, SPS, Fisher, Cuningham, traded up to get Stocker, they brought in Setterfield, Kennedy, and I’m sure there’s plenty more wobbly list decisions. At this point it is so obvious that this part of the list build has been a failure because the only selection we got right in terms of specific selections that will keep balance in the squad was only one, just f**king ONE! The safest pick 1 you could select. My drunk uncle would be able to make that decision.
And it only gets worse. McKay and Cripps are out of contract and at this point I’d prefer, if one of the two leave, it’s Cripps because he deserves better than this. Everyone is playing out of position, too many ball hunters and Nick Austin does not know what he’s gotten himself into.
If everyone stays then we’ve got to pick up gut running midfielders and trade out one or two of the above midfielders named. I’d prefer to keep Setters, SPS and Fish because they’re versatile but the rest can f**k off to be honest. The club has got to realise these faults or we will be a mid table team for a long while.

I’ve ranted but I think these points are pretty valid. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Have to agree. List management, drafting and recruiting was hugely improved under Silvagni but as time has gone on l have become unsure about the structure of the list.

Carlton didn’t use enough of its draft capital on medium size hard running players who play outside the centre square on the pockets, flanks and wings. We have been incredibly lucky that Martin, Saad and Williams have chosen Carlton otherwise there would be a huge hole.

A couple of selections that have stood out are;

The Stocker selection in the 2018 draft l just did not understand. He just seemed like the wrong type, inside midfielder with poor endurance. We had already used a lot of draft capital to recruit Setterfield, Kennedy(slow) and Dow(poor endurance) to play along side Cripps.

The Kemp selection in the 2019 draft also worried me. One of my favourites from that draft but he was a big midfielder. Although he has some pace, he may end up more of a tall utility type, not the running\pressure type we need. On top of that he has to come back from a knee reconstruction which could affect his running capacity. May pan out but risky.

The Philp selection was more spot on for what we needed. Good speed endurance combo l believe that can provide run and pressure. Philp is the type we should have been more focused on.

Gws has run into the same problem only far worse. Lost running players each year but kept going to the draft and selecting inside midfielders. Now they are the slowest team in the AFL.


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Last edited:
Left field idea, why don’t we sound out Robbie Gray to be part of our recruiting team once he retires.

He did some work with ports recruiting and believe he strongly pushed for Port to recruit Butters.

Every recruiter has started from scratch at some point.

I just have no faith in ours past or present.
 
ray8182 said:
Have to agree. List management, drafting and recruiting was hugely improved under Silvagni but as time has gone on l have become unsure about the structure of the list.

Carlton didn’t use enough of its draft capital on medium size hard running players who play outside the centre square on the pockets, flanks and wings. We have been incredibly lucky that Martin, Saad and Williams have chosen Carlton otherwise there would be a huge hole.

A couple of selections that have stood out are;

The Stocker selection in the 2018 draft l just did not understand. He just seemed like the wrong type, inside midfielder with poor endurance. We had already used a lot of draft capital to recruit Setterfield, Kennedy(slow) and Dow(poor endurance) to play along side Cripps.

The Kemp selection in the 2019 draft also worried me. One of my favourites from that draft but he was a big midfielder. Although he has some pace, he may end up more of a tall utility type, not the running\pressure type we need. On top of that he has to come back from a knee reconstruction which could affect his running capacity. May pan out but risky.

The Philp selection was more spot on for what we needed. Good speed endurance combo l believe that can provide run and pressure. Philp is the type we should have been more focused on.

Gws has run into the same problem only far worse. Lost running players each year but kept going to the draft and selecting inside midfielders. Now they are the slowest team in the AFL.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Spot on mate. Now Teague is stuck playing these guys out of position due to those strange decisions and injuries.
The positive out of this is the problem is glaringly obvious and as supporters we need to demand an independent inquiry on the club’s day to day strategies for on field development.
They’ve gotten everything else right but these list and on field decisions need to be investigated before we go into another off season and spend too much for a big name because we didn’t quite make the 8. We splashed way too much cash this past off season on these outside players and I called it then in another post.
 
TENACIOUS said:
On form and where they are in their careers
A Graders - Weitering, Saad, and Walsh
Potential A Graders - McKay, C.Curnow, Fisher, Martin, TDK, Fogarty & Williams

Lost Form A Graders - Cripps & Docherty
B Graders - Silvagni, Jones, Gibbons, Newman & Plowman

C Graders - SPS, Dow, McGovern, Pittonet, Williamson, Setterfield & Cuningham

Last Legs - Betts, E.Curnow, Murphy, Casboult, Newnes, McDonald , Kennedy & O'Brien

Kids (Could be Anything) - Stocker, Carroll, Kemp, Parks, Durdin, Philp, Ramsey, Honey, Owies & Cottrell

This is only where I see they are at now, hoping it will all change by the end of the year
Click to expand...
Very generous.

Most probably would be one step below where you've rated them, in my estimation.
 

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gbatman said:
A lot of goals kicked on him against Collingwood, it's harsh because it's dusty but when dusty stood up in the Richmond game and helped turn the tide he was on him then. He hasn't had a good start to the season.
Click to expand...

Plowman was very good against Richmond, but very poor against Collingwood.

This is very much a case of ignoring reality because you don't like a particular player for whatever reason.
 
Left field observation here. I’ve just watched the Bulldogs demolition of North. I felt sorry for the Club, it’s players but especially for Jayden Stephenson. He was cast onto that pile of mediocrity by Collingwood acting entirely in its own abject financial interests. As he demonstrated today he is talented and skilled performer. As Collingwood was effectively giving him away why didn’t we take him? I’m sure he’d perform well for us.
Your thoughts!
 

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Percy2257 said:
Left field observation here. I’ve just watched the Bulldogs demolition of North. I felt sorry for the Club, it’s players but especially for Jayden Stephenson. He was cast onto that pile of mediocrity by Collingwood acting entirely in its own abject financial interests. As he demonstrated today he is talented and skilled performer. As Collingwood was effectively giving him away why didn’t we take him? I’m sure he’d perform well for us.
Your thoughts!
Click to expand...

No need to feel sorry for Stephenson, he chose to go to North, I’m sure we would have enquired and I’m sure North offered him a lot more $$$$ than anyone else, he and his management would have known North would be down for a few years, but yes, I would have liked to have picked him up, if he wasn’t asking for so much money.
 
Ash24 said:
The way I look at it, you need 2 elite A-graders at each main position. All the others don't need to be flashy players, just guys who will do their job and play a role week in, week out. B-graders are totally fine to have.


Key defenders - Weiters/Jones
General defenders - Doc/Saad

Inside mids - Cripps/Williams
Outside mids - Walsh/???
Ruck - Pittonet

Key forwards - Harry/???
General forwards - Martin/Gibbons (has looked better than Fisher so far IMO)


With this model you're able to see exactly where the deficiencies are in our list. I honestly think we have the talent to be a potential top 6 team, but some of the pieces haven't come together yet.

Will Gov bounce back? Will JSOS continue his great pre-season form? Will Cunners/Dow/Stocker/Cottrell take the next step? It's a big year for all of them...
Click to expand...
Could you please add
Coach David Teague C grade
Assistant coaches Barker, Stanton, Bruce D grade
President MLG C to B grade
Board members C to D grade
 
Jeremias said:
Plowman was very good against Richmond, but very poor against Collingwood.

This is very much a case of ignoring reality because you don't like a particular player for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

When Martin was pretty much the difference late in that game when he went forward, who do you think was on him? I know Martin is exceptionally good and he does that but if very good is your rating then your standards need to lift.

We are playing Parks this week, that's a step in the right direction.

Plowman is just an ordinary every day defender and we go on about it like he an All Australian. Yeah he can keep an opponent quiet most weeks, there's a heap of blokes in the league who can do that, it's nothing special, they aren't hard to find. What he's not doing is what the best 3rd tall defenders are doing and that's intercept marking and running off his man to create an attacking option. He doesn't do much offensively and this is a big part of being the 3rd tall defender and being a defender in the modern game in general. IMO this role in our side is open and available. Could he play as a small/medium defender if we find a good third tall? He's done ok before but I don't know about week in week out, maybe but then again the same issue arises, small/medium defenders can ideally run and be offensive weapons on the rebound and I don't think we would get that from him.

As for the beating his man part, well his lack of pace and agility might come into question more often with a faster more open game that's being played this season. In a strong team defence with the opposition's ball movement more restricted, he can defend in that system with those limitations. Take that away and you get what we saw against Collingwood. Our tactics as a team aren't overly defence orientated so that's not going to help the slower defenders.

The thing that has annoyed me at Carlton for years is that as soon as someone is ok they are cemented in the side. Your A graders are cemented in, your B graders, you have to be open and aware of better options all the time. Being comfortable with mediocrity has imbedded itself at Carlton and it needs to become being uncomfortable with mediocrity sooner rather than later.
 
gbatman said:
When Martin was pretty much the difference late in that game when he went forward, who do you think was on him? I know Martin is exceptionally good and he does that but if very good is your rating then your standards need to lift.

We are playing Parks this week, that's a step in the right direction.

Plowman is just an ordinary every day defender and we go on about it like he an All Australian. Yeah he can keep an opponent quiet most weeks, there's a heap of blokes in the league who can do that, it's nothing special, they aren't hard to find. What he's not doing is what the best 3rd tall defenders are doing and that's intercept marking and running off his man to create an attacking option. He doesn't do much offensively and this is a big part of being the 3rd tall defender and being a defender in the modern game in general. IMO this role in our side is open and available. Could he play as a small/medium defender if we find a good third tall? He's done ok before but I don't know about week in week out, maybe but then again the same issue arises, small/medium defenders can ideally run and be offensive weapons on the rebound and I don't think we would get that from him.

As for the beating his man part, well his lack of pace and agility might come into question more often with a faster more open game that's being played this season. In a strong team defence with the opposition's ball movement more restricted, he can defend in that system with those limitations. Take that away and you get what we saw against Collingwood. Our tactics as a team aren't overly defence orientated so that's not going to help the slower defenders.

The thing that has annoyed me at Carlton for years is that as soon as someone is ok they are cemented in the side. Your A graders are cemented in, your B graders, you have to be open and aware of better options all the time. Being comfortable with mediocrity has imbedded itself at Carlton and it needs to become being uncomfortable with mediocrity sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...

I dont think its Plows role to be a 3rd tall/intercept defender. I think he's largely used as a switch/stopper which is why you see him often on 3 or 4 different guys a week.

And when Jones runs off his man to double fist it straight to Plows man... who takes Jones man? That's right... it's Plow. And who gets blown up for not being on his man? Plow.

Plowmans biggest problem is he plays a team first role, he gets stuck on Darling, Dusty, Stephenson, DeGoey deep and 1 out week after week while also being expected to cover for Jones leaving his man, or Doch/Sammo running forward and turning it over.

Count the goals conceded by Plow within 30secs of a Half Back turnover, he does the right thing by getting forward of his man when we gain possession, only for it to sail back over his head when SPS stubs his toe.

If he was a little more "Carlton" and a little less "team", he'd know we're going to give it up and he'd just play lockdown. Instead he takes a hit for the team, repeatedly and the coaching staff have said the same over and over.

He makes mistakes and isn't perfect but I think if he played a more selfish role people would complain a lot less.

People have a habit of just blaming the defender on screen rather than the player responsible.
 
95blues said:
I dont think its Plows role to be a 3rd tall/intercept defender. I think he's largely used as a switch/stopper which is why you see him often on 3 or 4 different guys a week.

And when Jones runs off his man to double fist it straight to Plows man... who takes Jones man? That's right... it's Plow. And who gets blown up for not being on his man? Plow.

Plowmans biggest problem is he plays a team first role, he gets stuck on Darling, Dusty, Stephenson, DeGoey deep and 1 out week after week while also being expected to cover for Jones leaving his man, or Doch/Sammo running forward and turning it over.

Count the goals conceded by Plow within 30secs of a Half Back turnover, he does the right thing by getting forward of his man when we gain possession, only for it to sail back over his head when SPS stubs his toe.

If he was a little more "Carlton" and a little less "team", he'd know we're going to give it up and he'd just play lockdown. Instead he takes a hit for the team, repeatedly and the coaching staff have said the same over and over.

He makes mistakes and isn't perfect but I think if he played a more selfish role people would complain a lot less.

People have a habit of just blaming the defender on screen rather than the player responsible.
Click to expand...
Well said.
Is Plow perfect? No but the amount of crap he cops is laughable.
Our hbf's and midfield sell him out on a weekly basis by allowing the opposition time & space when delivering inside 50.
You could have SOS, Scarlett & Rance back there and they'd have goals kicked on them when the opposition is given space to lead into to receive an unpressured kick.
 
TENACIOUS said:
Yes, somewhat agree...

But didn't feel comfortable rating our players as D & E graders, when they are AFL listed players
Click to expand...
Fair enough but it is probably closer to reality on current output.
Some of those listed have the potential to be A or B graders but their average performance would fall beneath that.
 

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