List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[CROW in BALI]

They both played wing. They both ran with the ball, and as it stands currently they both have poor disposal by foot.
He is very Tragenza like both in position and attributes.

Sorry but no , don’t care about the Tregenza comparison but can’t have you saying he is poor by foot without questioning.
If you want to compare disposal efficiency its up there with Scholl, better by 3% than Jake Soligo and 5% Sam Berry, and kicks the ball more often than both of them .
His leg was a weapon as a junior and long raking goals similar to Dawson a specialty.

Was disappointed when we didn’t draft him and would be very happy picking him up .

Interesting Collingwood player sponsor

 

[Cleric]

Sorry but no , don’t care about the Tregenza comparison but can’t have you saying he is poor by foot without questioning.
If you want to compare disposal efficiency its up there with Scholl, better by 3% than Jake Soligo and 5% Sam Berry, and kicks the ball more often than both of them .
His leg was a weapon as a junior and long raking goals similar to Dawson a specialty.

Was disappointed when we didn’t draft him and would be very happy picking him up .

Interesting Collingwood player sponsor

View attachment 1516420

I'm all for getting him in, I like the lad, but at this point his disposal by foot is what critics point out. I'm not saying that he won't be able to improve that, but at this point that's the knock.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Ah… the old Disposal effficiency stat strikes again..

The most useless stat in football.. and still no one can explain exactly how it is measured..

This is the stat that was used by some in here this year to say Ben Keays

2

Ben Keays

Age

27

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.1

3star

K

5.8

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.9

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

13.7

3star

K

8.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.7

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

4.8

2star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.4

2star

T

4.4

5star

G

0.4

3star

was as good as Christian Petracca

5

Christian Petracca

Age

28

Ht

187cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.4

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

2.5

4star

D

24.4

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.5

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

3.4

4star

D

19.0

5star

K

7.8

3star

HB

11.2

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.0

4star

when it comes to disposing the football!.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The most useless stat in football.. and still no one can explain exactly how it is measured..

Easy ....I'll let you hunt the info .....it's the Champion Data interpretation used for SuperCoach

Effective handballs v ineffective
Kicks to players completed is easy .....40 mtr+ kicks to a pack, is also classed as effective ....even if intercepted by an oppo player ...which then triggers a separate stat

Another is kicks to a teammates advantage, which is treated the same as HTA by Ruckmen

Handballs are black & white ......people get confused over the kicking interpretation of DE

You are right though, the stat is over-used .....it doesn't tell us a lot, due to differing game styles, and DEF / MID / FWD zone players ....however IMO, it says more at a team level (ball control) rather than individual level ......e.g teams that deliberately use the chaos ball going into FWD lines ......good strategy ....poor DE

 

[Scorpus]

Ah… the old Disposal effficiency stat strikes again..

The most useless stat in football.. and still no one can explain exactly how it is measured..

This is the stat that was used by some in here this year to say Ben Keays was as good as Christian Petracca when it comes to disposing the football!.

DE is a terrible stat if you can have an effective disposal that's also a turnover (which you can)

 

[Bearded Clam]

Easy ....I'll let you hunt the info .....it's the Champion Data interpretation used for SuperCoach

Effective handballs v ineffective
Kicks to players completed is easy .....40 mtr+ kicks to a pack, is also classed as effective ....even if intercepted by an oppo player ...which then triggers a separate stat

Another is kicks to a teammates advantage, which is treated the same as HTA by Ruckmen

Handballs are black & white ......people get confused over the kicking interpretation of DE

You are right though, the stat is over-used .....it doesn't tell us a lot, due to differing game styles, and DEF / MID / FWD zone players ....however IMO, it says more at a team level (ball control) rather than individual level ......e.g teams that deliberately use the chaos ball going into FWD lines ......good strategy ....poor DE

So you can kick the football 40+ metres straight to an opposition player (which is kindly classed as an “intercept”) and thats an effective disposal..

You can kick 40+ metres to a pack of players.. 2 of them opponents and 1 being your team mate and thats an effective disposal.

You can handball to the feet of your ruckman forcing him to stumble as he grabs the ball off his toes.. slowing him down and resulting in him being tackled.. and thats an effective disposal.. as compared to a perfect handball that allows your team mate to not even break stride and stream away from the contest..

Thats the problem with the stat.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

DE is a terrible stat if you can have an effective disposal that's also a turnover (which you can)

I understand what you're saying ....but in reality you can't have an effective disposal AND a turnover .....the turnover is classified as an intercept ......the spoil by an oppo player doesn't impact DE for kicks 40+ mtrs .....but impacts DE for kicks under 40mtrs (turnover)

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So you can kick the football 40+ metres straight to an opposition player (which is kindly classed as an “intercept”) and thats an effective disposal..

You can kick 40+ metres to a pack of players.. 2 of them opponents and 1 being your team mate and thats an effective disposal.

Correct ....although, if a teammate isn't in the vicinity e.g teams who long kick to an empty fwd line, only occupied by Stephen May ....that's a turnover

You can handball to the feet of your ruckman forcing him to stumble as he grabs the ball off his toes.. slowing him down and resulting in him being tackled.. and thats an effective disposal.. as compared to a perfect handball that allows your team mate to not even break stride and stream away from the contest..

No to part 1 (bold) ......yes to part 2

These are the definitions Clubs have provided to Champion Data for measurement .....blame the Clubs

 

[Scorpus]

I understand what you're saying ....but in reality you can't have an effective disposal AND a turnover .....the turnover is classified as an intercept ......the spoil by an oppo player doesn't impact DE for kicks 40+ mtrs .....but impacts DE for kicks under 40mtrs (turnover)

You can. There are lots of examples of players having more turnovers than ineffective disposals. And also on the AFL player summary videos they often show disposals marked as both effective and as a turnover

 

[Smart Fella]

I understand what you're saying ....but in reality you can't have an effective disposal AND a turnover .....the turnover is classified as an intercept ......the spoil by an oppo player doesn't impact DE for kicks 40+ mtrs .....but impacts DE for kicks under 40mtrs (turnover)

You'd think so but that's incorrect too. Check out Brodie Smith's game against the Hawks. Plenty of effective kicks but turnovers.

I trust my eyes when it comes to kicking efficiency and who is a better overall kick in different circumstances. All players make mistakes but some are more reliable than others.

On CPH1903 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I trust my eyes when it comes to kicking efficiency and who is a better overall kick in different circumstances. All players make mistakes but some are more reliable than others.

You can't beat the "eye test" IMO .....is the Ben Keays sloppy kick into the FWD line bad ? .....to the purest, yes, to the elite fwds ...no!

Defenders rely on predictability of delivery to opposing Forwrds .....so it can advantage fwds

It's called the chaos ball now ....but in generations past, where drop kicks, and punts went everywhere .....those kicks advantaged the elite forward ....now, we have to put a shiny new terminology to what has always existed

 

[Scorpus]

You'd think so but that's incorrect too. Check out Brodie Smith's game against the Hawks. Plenty of effective kicks but turnovers.

I trust my eyes when it comes to kicking efficiency and who is a better overall kick in different circumstances. All players make mistakes but some are more reliable than others.

On CPH1903 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Exactly. He had 2 ineffective disposals but 9 turnovers that match.

Champion Data also does a poor job of assessing turnovers though. Sometimes the disposing player will get penalized for the receiving player dropping a simple uncontested chest mark.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Sometimes the disposing player will get penalized for the receiving player dropping a simple uncontested chest mark.

Shouldn't .....that's classified as a "clanger" to the player dropping the chest mark

 

[Scorpus]

Shouldn't .....that's classified as a "clanger" to the player dropping the chest mark

It happens, check the annotated player videos

 

[WaynesWorld19]

It happens, check the annotated player videos

I look at players "live" scoring in these area's ....every game (9 a week), qtr by qtr .....sometimes play by play

As long as humans are involved, there'll be errors in interpretation .....and it mostly impacts SuperCoach Players, but even then, very few truly understand all the scoring nuances

 

[WaynesWorld19]

 

[crow2crow]

we gotta a lot of work to do

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

You steal this from the Essendon board?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You steal this from the Essendon board?

It was actually on one of the Trade Speculation threads

 

[WeedsMullet84]

I'll probably get howled down for this suggestion, but i'd like to see us make a play for Bowes and pick 7

Crows give 2023 1st to GC for Bowes + pick 7.

Then pick 5 for rankine.

We then get rankine and still have a pick before port in the first round of this years draft

Correct that you’d get howled down for this.

GC have clearly telegraphed that they’re open to trading pick 7 & Bowes for a salary dump.

The AFL through Twomey have also indicated that they’re willing to give the green light to salary dumps where the deal is HEAVILY IN FAVOUR of the club taking on a player and the associated salary dump.

Pick 5 = for Rankine
Pick 7 = our future 1st

Now you need to attach a draft pick to Bowes and his associated salary dump.

Gold Coast offered Pick 19 last year (expecting a 3rd back) for someone to take ONE YEAR of Darcy McPhersons remaining contract. Player + salary dump, and they’re GIVING Pick 19.

We definitely should be looking at:

GC Pick 7 + Rankine + Bowes = Crows Pick 5 & a combination of picks next year that will help GC out with points for their academy selections, but absolutely not our 1st rounder.


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[Danger in Texas]

Bring on trade week, bring on Rankine

 

[Golumless]

It's probably been like that for even longer, seeing top 4 in defence has been near universal requirement to win a premiership in the last 40 years.

 

[WeedsMullet84]

You steal this from the Essendon board?

I posted something a bit more in-depth in terms of stats over on the ‘positive vibes only’ thread


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[crow2crow]

Bring on trade week, bring on Rankine

watching today its clear to see we need a much better defence to go anywhere

yes rankine is great but some great intercept defenders is critical

 

[Geoffa32]

Premierships have always been built on strong dependable backlines.


Smart/Hart were massive for us in 97/98

On SM-A325F using BigFooty.com mobile app