Autopsy 2022 Rd 6 - Never in it. Blues disappoint in the West.

[Metalcrusher]

To much left to too few. A couple of bog average passengers tonight. Still much up side to this team.

Let’s see how vossy and the mc respond this week. I urge the fans to realise, he has only had this team for a couple of months, we are going to see results like this from time to time.

Still 100% sure we will play finals this year, that in itself would be a remarkable feat considering the past few years.

I ****** love this club. Go blues.

 

[tarczonandjane]

The list is at an interesting stage. The top end is good enough to beat the ordinary teams and probably split against the average teams.

The challenge is in the middle of the list (Fisher, Martin, Setterfield, Newman, O’Brien, Dow) and the bottom of the list (Owies, Durdin, Cotterell, Newnes, Parks Young).

I think the problem is reversed a bit from the 2009-2012 side though. At that time the top and middle of the list was fine, and then the bottom of the list fell away horribly. This time, it’s easy to focus on the bottom of the list and say the same. But I’m less worried about that. We’ve taken steps to hopefully improve the development (Durdin, Parks and Young) and list management (Cotterell, Newnes) side of things.

But the middle of the list looks dreadful to me. There isn’t a single one of them who I would back to make it. So what we are relying on is the development of Stocker, Philp, Honey, Carroll, Motlop, and Kemp to fill that void. It’s going to be a challenge.

The issues last night have been hit on by multiple posters. A forward line where the smalls provided no pressure, and wings who can’t find the ball or provide pressure. Both issues led to the problem the commentary team picked up on of turnovers at about defensive 60-80 metres.

The problem for Voss is where he goes to from here? He’s got the guy who was probably the best winger in the comp in the second half of 2020 (Walsh), but he’d be robbing Peter to pay Paul. He’s tried the guy with the offensive attributes of a winger, but none of the defensive attributes (O’Brien). And he’s tried the guys without the offensive attributes, but the defensive attributes (Cotterell and Newnes). I’d have thought Kemp and Philp might have attributes to play wing, but it doesn’t seem like they’re being played there. The result is that Voss sticks with the guy who occasionally displays a mix of offensive and defensive ability (Setterfield) and then tries to mix it up on the other wing with whoever takes his fancy. It’s not sustainable, but I’d question whether it can be addressed with the current list.

Small and half forwards might be more promising. Motlop is obviously close to debut, and Honey is coming back. But how Voss puts a rocket up Fisher and Martin is beyond me. I think Fisher is a frustrated onballer who is miles away from being able to contribute to our centre square setup. Martin is just horribly inconsistent and can’t hit the scoreboard when we need.

It might also be time to take a realistic look at our results so far and ask who we’ve beaten:

Richmond - good on their day, but only have their day every second week. Bottom part of the eight at best.
Dogs - not a top eight side.
Hawthorn - developing. Bottom part of the eight at best.
Port - probably better than the ladder suggests. But very unlikely to make finals.

So we’ve beaten two sides who might be 7th-8th and two sides who won’t make it. That suggests we are a 7th-10th type of side. The middle part of the list will determine where we fall on that spectrum. And the problem is that Voss doesn’t have many cards to play.

Finally, well done to Tom de Koning

12

Tom De Koning

Age

26

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

on a good game last night.

 

[Lace_Out]

Well they were doing the PCL test when they showed him on the bench.

It was a classic cae for a PCL knee on knee (see Kouta v Johnston)

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[Lace_Out]

We had our chances to get some momentum back but the local umpires gave them the frees in front of goal and did the opposite to us.

Freo was the better side but luck evaded us last night.


Worried about Pitto..

Holding out hope it isn't as bad as it originally looked as they strapped it and they appeared to not rule him out too quickly.

Unfortunately Pittos face painted a different picture.

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[bigblueboy]

Too much left to too few last night.

Cripps, Cerra, Hewett, Saad, Doc, Weiters, TDK all good - Walsh tried hard …

Newnes, Setterfield are first in line to play VFL. Boyd, Parkes, Owies, Durdin, Fisher, Martin, Newman must be close also.

Our game style stacks up for a while but there’s gaping holes which need to be addressed. This is going to take time and I’m confident that the coaching team has already identified the issues. It’s going to take longer than a few weeks to sort it as it requires players who can adapt.

Be prepared for more trial and error.

 

[Benaly28]

Worst strength side of the year.On the road.Pitto going down.A lot went wrong.


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[rp84]

Pitto might be a corkie. Fingers crossed. If it is he will probably still miss next week.


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I would put my remaining $12.50 that it's a 10 week PCL. The slow mo shows the tibia move about 4cm posteriorly when it gets smashed in to.

Darcy clearly had eyes on the player to hurt it.

Hate to say it but they need to get rid of the the knee contact. Should just make the ruckman circle tiny so it's a standing jump only. Bang. There goes knee injuries.

Unfortunately we go from top 8 team to bottom 8 team with him out.

 

[T2B_]

Shame for Pitto, as typical for a Carlton big man, goes down just as he's looking in the best form of his life...

 

[Benga]

I think we’re missing a huge opportunity to play by not playing Walsh and Cerra on the wing.

I can’t take Newnes and setterfield seriously. Newnes is like having a road block in transition out there, and setterfield plays like he’s fresh off of a lobotomy.

The cupboard is bare in that position and it is full in the inside mid/balanced mid position. Playing a mixture of Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett and one or more of Dow, Stocker, Kemp, Philp even Williams for bursts is going to be far more beneficial to our dynamism as a whole.
At the very least have both Walsh and Cerra share a 50:50 split on one wing.

 

[Gethelred]

Of course a non paying Carlton member who forgets the last 20 years of trashed dished up

1) I'm a paid member.
2) Even if I wasn't a paid member, my being a paid member has jack shit to do with your level of entitlement.

Not everyone can be a paid member. Not everyone's financially stable. Not everyone has the money to give. You think they don't count?

If you expect to throw your weight around here as though it were a warhammer, you will be sorely disappointed.

 

[Gethelred]

I think we’re missing a huge opportunity to play by not playing Walsh and Cerra on the wing.

I can’t take Newnes and setterfield seriously. Newnes is like having a road block in transition out there, and setterfield plays like he’s fresh off of a lobotomy.

The cupboard is bare in that position and it is full in the inside mid/balanced mid position. Playing a mixture of Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett and one or more of Dow, Stocker, Kemp, Philp even Williams for bursts is going to be far more beneficial to our dynamism as a whole.
At the very least have both Walsh and Cerra share a 50:50 split on one wing.

Here's the issue there: our HBF's are less defensive than perhaps they should be, with Williams and Saad backing all the way up to HF. As a consequence of that, we need our wings to do more defensive running/positioning to compensate. If we had the defensive HBF's - or at least our HBF's didn't get dragged so far upfield - then we could use Walsh/Cerra as attacking wings.

Then you get to the issues with speed we'd have if they were shifted outside a stoppage.

I'd really be sending Saad up to a wing, because he'd be a gun on a wing. Let Williams and Doc fight it out between each other for the HBF and promote Stocker as a defensive back pocket.

 

[forever blue 1]

Oof

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2015 draft was very good though

 

[Earls Smother]

The list is at an interesting stage. The top end is good enough to beat the ordinary teams and probably split against the average teams.

The challenge is in the middle of the list (Fisher, Martin, Setterfield, Newman, O’Brien, Dow) and the bottom of the list (Owies, Durdin, Cotterell, Newnes, Parks Young).

I think the problem is reversed a bit from the 2009-2012 side though. At that time the top and middle of the list was fine, and then the bottom of the list fell away horribly. This time, it’s easy to focus on the bottom of the list and say the same. But I’m less worried about that. We’ve taken steps to hopefully improve the development (Durdin, Parks and Young) and list management (Cotterell, Newnes) side of things.

But the middle of the list looks dreadful to me. There isn’t a single one of them who I would back to make it. So what we are relying on is the development of Stocker, Philp, Honey, Carroll, Motlop, and Kemp to fill that void. It’s going to be a challenge.

The issues last night have been hit on by multiple posters. A forward line where the smalls provided no pressure, and wings who can’t find the ball or provide pressure. Both issues led to the problem the commentary team picked up on of turnovers at about defensive 60-80 metres.

The problem for Voss is where he goes to from here? He’s got the guy who was probably the best winger in the comp in the second half of 2020 (Walsh), but he’d be robbing Peter to pay Paul. He’s tried the guy with the offensive attributes of a winger, but none of the defensive attributes (O’Brien). And he’s tried the guys without the offensive attributes, but the defensive attributes (Cotterell and Newnes). I’d have thought Kemp and Philp might have attributes to play wing, but it doesn’t seem like they’re being played there. The result is that Voss sticks with the guy who occasionally displays a mix of offensive and defensive ability (Setterfield) and then tries to mix it up on the other wing with whoever takes his fancy. It’s not sustainable, but I’d question whether it can be addressed with the current list.

Small and half forwards might be more promising. Motlop is obviously close to debut, and Honey is coming back. But how Voss puts a rocket up Fisher and Martin is beyond me. I think Fisher is a frustrated onballer who is miles away from being able to contribute to our centre square setup. Martin is just horribly inconsistent and can’t hit the scoreboard when we need.

It might also be time to take a realistic look at our results so far and ask who we’ve beaten:

Richmond - good on their day, but only have their day every second week. Bottom part of the eight at best.
Dogs - not a top eight side.
Hawthorn - developing. Bottom part of the eight at best.
Port - probably better than the ladder suggests. But very unlikely to make finals.

So we’ve beaten two sides who might be 7th-8th and two sides who won’t make it. That suggests we are a 7th-10th type of side. The middle part of the list will determine where we fall on that spectrum. And the problem is that Voss doesn’t have many cards to play.

Finally, well done to Tom de Koning on a good game last night.

The good thing is we have Gov, JSOS, Kennedy, OMac, Cunners, Marchbank and Ed (age?) as middle of the list players to add to those you listed. Also Willo and Plow, but they were available and not picked, so I won't count them.

That's 7 to add to the 6 young ones you listed. More than half a team of options moving forward.

We simply had the wrong mix of available players to match a quick team on their home deck, missing only Fyfe, Young and Chapman. If they couldn't beat us last night, they never would.

 

[Benga]

Here's the issue there: our HBF's are less defensive than perhaps they should be, with Williams and Saad backing all the way up to HF. As a consequence of that, we need our wings to do more defensive running/positioning to compensate. If we had the defensive HBF's - or at least our HBF's didn't get dragged so far upfield - then we could use Walsh/Cerra as attacking wings.

Then you get to the issues with speed we'd have if they were shifted outside a stoppage.

I'd really be sending Saad up to a wing, because he'd be a gun on a wing. Let Williams and Doc fight it out between each other for the HBF and promote Stocker as a defensive back pocket.

Disagree re Saad playing too offensively. Think he’s fantastic defensively and has been unfairly targeted based off a preconceived perception.
Yes, he could play wing, and probably well, but I don’t think the net result would be that much greater. His tank would be the question.

Williams I’d agree with. Been horrible for weeks imo. Prone to some truly god awful kicks that really hurt us.

Have a look at their heat maps for reference.

And what’s wrong with one or both our wings doing more defensive running?

 

[TheReal99prelim]

Definitely think it’s time for Doc to move up the ground, especially with Stocker returning.

We don’t have much else in the twos. LOB is what he is.

Absolutely
I would take a LOB/Docherty combo on the wings in a heartbeat

 

[myblueroan]

I don't think we played particularly poorly, they were just better than us.

The scoreline flattered us, if anything.

If Freo were any good at converting I50s into scores, it would have been uglier.

A few top players short of a win.

 

[jpfalvo]

Outside Fyfe and maybe Young who else please?


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Fyfe
Young
Chapman
Tucker

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[DieselKernahan]

Went to the game live and then watched some of the replay. It probably wasn't as bad as some are speculating. Freo is a good team and has a great defence from the Lyon era, plus a good midfield rotation and outside run.
Always up against it once Pittonet went off and mcKay hobbling around. I thought Young and DeKoning both did well despite being lighter than opponents. Hewett has been a real revelation and Cripps our best.

I wondered if we'd try pace ourselves so our 3rd quarters aren't so horrendous, it did seem that way. We tried to play more through the corridor in the 3rd and actually had some good entries but just couldn't capitalise. Williams was driving it forward quite a bit off the flank.

hate to bag the umpires but we missed 3 pretty blatant f50 frees in the 3rd, Curnow arm chop, then Logue dropping the ball and Martin high tackle. Pick up any of those and could have been closer in the last when we had a good crack at it.

For next wk, I'd bring Silvagni, Dow, Carroll and Stocker in. Pitto, Newnes, Parks and Setterfield out. Plow as sub instead of Boyd.
Move Docherty to a wing and Stocker into the d50. Dow in means we could rotate Walsh and Cerra on a wing. Carrol was named as best in ressies so deserves a go.
Durdin, Owies and Fisher would want better showings next wk as well. Wouldn't mind seeing Williamson soon as well as i think he has more promise than Parks and could be a wing option.

 

[Gethelred]

Disagree re Saad playing too offensively. Think he’s fantastic defensively and has been unfairly targeted based off a preconceived perception.
Yes, he could play wing, and probably well, but I don’t think the net result would be that much greater. His tank would be the question.

Williams I’d agree with. Been horrible for weeks imo. Prone to some truly god awful kicks that really hurt us.

Have a look at their heat maps for reference.

And what’s wrong with one or both our wings doing more defensive running?

It's not Saad's fault that Doc and Williams also play looser than they could. We can deal with one of them playing a little loose, two at a push, but all three?

He's the best defender of the three, but he's also the most creative, the fastest, and if not the best kick of the three he's more likely to pull the best kick off than Doc is. Off a wing, he's freer to both do that defensive running but also to be used more offensively.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the wings doing defensive running, but it's the difference between run coming from half back and kicking to 35-40m out and run coming from the wing and kicking to the top of the square. Deeper kicks to advantage inside 50.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Thought Setters was terrible. He lacks the tank or the ticker. That last quarter he was just plodding around while his team mate in Cripps was working his butt off. Not good enough.

Playing him as a winger isn't working.

Also Boyd has a crack but he's just not ready for AFL yet.

Fisher... not consistent enough, not giving us what we need. He was actually rubbish last night.

Then there's Martin. He had the chance to give us a sniff before half time and he blew it. Did well kicking the snap goal but missing that set shot really hurt us. There's moments in games where he needs to step up and he just doesn't do it. With no Jack and Harry hurt we really needed more from him. Then he goes pretty much unsighted in the second half.

They weren't the only ones but they're the ones we should expect more from.

Our biggest problem is outside run. Teams have way too many loose players just lining up and when they win the ball it's too easy to break away and cut us up. Our mids then have to work really hard to chase and by the time we win the ball in the back line they're too stuffed to run and spread so we're stuck kicking long up the line.... try our luck again to win the contest...

Even when we win it in packs, our players are often too grouped up and as a result we're dishing out hospital handballs or hurried kicks.

Doesn't seem sustainable to me especially when Pitto goes down and Harry is injured.

 

[TheReal99prelim]

Michael, you said similar, before we played them last year and you know the results

Yes, at the moment Dockers look slick in their ball movement and certainly play better at home, they are a solid side

Longmuir has had 3 preasons and 2 full years to bed down a gameplan, us 1 and 6 games

The other thing, unless they win a flag in the next 2 years, unlike them, we don't have to find replacements for players such as Walters, Mundy, Colyer, Fyfe, Wilson, Lobb, Hamling, Taberner, all 29+, all of which won't be around and or improve over that period

For different reasons, I see both sides at a similar level moving forward

Agree...I'm not getting seduced by Freo one tiny bit
They're doing well and can't be challenged on how they're playing ATM
Last night, they played probably one of the flakiest sides of the last 5 years who lost a ruckman early on (that's not the reason Carlton lost BTW) and replaced by a barely VFL player
We were pathetic last night, losing structure constantly and being carried by too few, yet with a bit of steadiness could've lost by under 20 points
Freo...mehhh

 

[Beyond Blue]

Not sure why people are hating on Fisher. Had a shocker today sure but so did 10 others.

Before today he's averaged 19 touches 2 tackles and a goal in a tough half forward spot.

I reckon he has struggled all year - not once this season has he been listed in the best players - and his stats line isn’t representative of a pure small forward as he plays a lot higher on the ground and even runs through the middle at times.

The reason why he elicits so much criticism is because - unlike newer players such as Durdin - he’s into his 6th year and we still don’t know if Fish can become a consistent contributor at this level so I think it’s only fair to question whether it will ever happen.

You are right however that he wasn’t alone last night and sadly a few of them like Setts and Martin are in the same boat as Fish in that despite years in the system they still can’t be consistent contributors at AFL level (there’s also a few outside the team like Cunners, Willo, Dow and LOB that fit that bill too).

For me the standard for dealing with perennial underachievers was set at the end of last year when the club sent Samo packing to West Coast for peanuts so if things don’t improve by seasons end then we should be prepared to move past these sorts of players.

 

[RattAttack]

So the mid season draft is a little over 5 weeks away?

If Pitto is sidelined long term, surely we target a ruckman? Otherwise, a KPD I think…

 

[WFGodot]

I’m intrigued with TDK. No where near as putrid as he was against GC. Some positive signs.
Maybe Pittonets injury Could prove to be the turning point where he simply had to - and did? Think good thoughts!

 

[Beyond Blue]

Wonder how the Newman apologist can defend that one. Absolute rubbish

1 contested possession
Only 1 intercept
Only 11 pressure acts
Under 300m gained
Multiple turnovers and 'efficient kicks' because only bombed long down the line to contests.

So he's not rebounding, he's not intercepting, he's not tackling, he's not spoiling (low 1 percenters), what the fu** is he in the team for.

I was at the game last night and I thought Newman actually contested pretty hard under a lot of pressure from the repeat entries and was far from our worst.

He made one glaring turnover late but aside from that his ball use was probably better than Doc or Williams.

I’ve got bigger issues with the likes of Setts, Fish, Martin and even Harry and Charlie who seemingly don’t know how to impact games for long enough.