List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Sam The Doc]

Who is this Jack Martin you speak of? The Jack Martin on our list does none of those, well, he might do it for 5 mins but thats about it.

Yeah pretty sure we aren't missing his 3 touches a game.

 

[Gw2_James]

People are going to really hate this but it's clearly the truth.

When we rebuilt our list, we didn't bring in any experienced leaders to lead the way, like a luke hodge. We kept getting smashed year on year, it bred this losing culture, we have player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, and now about to see a 4th. They don't know how to stand up and lead when the pressure gets put on, because they were never taught.

I'm sorry but we've very clearly messed up this rebuild. How can you keep on these player's who have seen coaches get sacked?

How about we buckle this trend, trade out these player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, (Cripps, Docherty) trade out weitering, silvagni, fisher. Delist Mcgovern/Martin/Marchbank.

Use those draft picks we would get, draft some young potential star's, and bring in a small handful of experienced players with leadership qualities, to show them the way. I'm actually gobsmacked we never brought in an experienced leader during the early days of our rebuild.

You may hate on this all you want, and yes we will finish lower for probably the next 2 years or so, but if we don't be bold and get to what i believe is the root of our problem, then we are just going to continue following this cycle of sacking coaches, and this rebuild will end up a total failure. Strike now while Walsh/Curnow/Mckay/Cerra etc etc will be hitting their prime.

 

[FRUMPY]

I did say fit and firing…
Martin has all those attributes but his body has let him down badly.

i think both adjectives are wrong for him
Fit: never is
Firing: his 1st game and the odd 5 min cameo......otherwise

 

[Beyond Blue]

People are going to really hate this but it's clearly the truth.

When we rebuilt our list, we didn't bring in any experienced leaders to lead the way, like a luke hodge. We kept getting smashed year on year, it bred this losing culture, we have player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, and now about to see a 4th. They don't know how to stand up and lead when the pressure gets put on, because they were never taught.

I'm sorry but we've very clearly messed up this rebuild. How can you keep on these player's who have seen coaches get sacked?

How about we buckle this trend, trade out these player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, (Cripps, Docherty) trade out weitering, silvagni, fisher. Delist Mcgovern/Martin/Marchbank.

Use those draft picks we would get, draft some young potential star's, and bring in a small handful of experienced players with leadership qualities, to show them the way. I'm actually gobsmacked we never brought in an experienced leader during the early days of our rebuild.

You may hate on this all you want, and yes we will finish lower for probably the next 2 years or so, but if we don't be bold and get to what i believe is the root of our problem, then we are just going to continue following this cycle of sacking coaches, and this rebuild will end up a total failure. Strike now while Walsh/Curnow/Mckay/Cerra etc etc will be hitting their prime.

I hear you and agree in the most - I am starting to think Cripps is a massive part of the problem - but I wouldn’t trade Weitering out. Trading a 25 year old key position player out will set us back 3-5 years.

Outside of Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Cerra, Weitering and this year’s rookies (who we simply do not know enough about) everyone else is expendable including the current captain.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

People are going to really hate this but it's clearly the truth.

When we rebuilt our list, we didn't bring in any experienced leaders to lead the way, like a luke hodge. We kept getting smashed year on year, it bred this losing culture, we have player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, and now about to see a 4th. They don't know how to stand up and lead when the pressure gets put on, because they were never taught.

I'm sorry but we've very clearly messed up this rebuild. How can you keep on these player's who have seen coaches get sacked?

How about we buckle this trend, trade out these player's who have seen 3 coaches sacked, (Cripps, Docherty) trade out weitering, silvagni, fisher. Delist Mcgovern/Martin/Marchbank.

Use those draft picks we would get, draft some young potential star's, and bring in a small handful of experienced players with leadership qualities, to show them the way. I'm actually gobsmacked we never brought in an experienced leader during the early days of our rebuild.

You may hate on this all you want, and yes we will finish lower for probably the next 2 years or so, but if we don't be bold and get to what i believe is the root of our problem, then we are just going to continue following this cycle of sacking coaches, and this rebuild will end up a total failure. Strike now while Walsh/Curnow/Mckay/Cerra etc etc will be hitting their prime.

Trade out Weiter, Cripps & Docherty... What sort of club do you think we would have left if we did that?? The fabric would be gone, we may as well hand the keys in and try and merge with the kangas.. One of the most ridiculous over reactions I have seen.

The side is not performing, however blowing up the list hasn't worked in the past and wont work now.. I am not against trading assets where it makes sense, look at Collingwood they have traded Grundy and Treloar and haven't missed a beat but those 3 are heart and soul players who so far have bled for the club, they are also on long term big $ deals so no one is paying overs to acquire them, we would end up p1ssing them off so much even contemplating the idea that they demand to be traded to Geelong and we get a 2nd round and pay 1/2 the salary..

 

[Markyd]

i think both adjectives are wrong for him
Fit: never is
Firing: his 1st game and the odd 5 min cameo......otherwise

Harsh…

 

[Kaladin Stormblessed]

...Until we jettison a few players and replace them with draftees.

What's Plow on? Think he re-signed just after another top-10 b&f finish. Surely that's at least 300? So there's upwards of 180 in the bank if we replace him with a kid from the national draft.

Ed? Senior player, great servant of the club, etc. Can't be on nearly as much as he was back in the day but we're still putting 100-200 in tha bank with a ND replacement.

If Gov stays, he's getting waaaay less than he was on. There's 400-650 (re-sign vs draft replacement).

Dow's meant to be on surprisingly big money, some 450-500, hence no suitors last year. I imagine Fogarty didn't come across on a rookie wage (not saying big bucks or even close to that, but he's not going to be on 120).

Hard to judge Marchy & DC. CM would have come across on reasonable money, no idea what he's on now. Also no idea how the club saw Richie & how they rewarded him. Philp had the '1st round +2 extension' which probably wasn't heaps above his rookie rate, but could have been an extra 100 for year 3+4. Honey wouldn't be on much, but would be more than a rookie drafted player.

It's not inconceivable that we re-sign TDK & Gov then draft 4-5 players, yet still end up with upwards of $1.5M 'change' left at the end.

Well you’re assuming that hasn’t already been factored into list management decisions and contracts handed out over the last two years. Which if you have a decent list management team I wouldn’t find inconceivable.

For example, Cripps / H year 1 of new contract might be on $600k, then steps up to $900k by year 3 when McGovern, Dow, Plowman contracts roll off etc.

Don’t think we magically find ourselves $1.5m to play with because some maligned players contracts ending catches us by surprise…

 

[Gw2_James]

Trade out Weiter, Cripps & Docherty... What sort of club do you think we would have left if we did that?? The fabric would be gone, we may as well hand the keys in and try and merge with the kangas.. One of the most ridiculous over reactions I have seen.

The side is not performing, however blowing up the list hasn't worked in the past and wont work now.. I am not against trading assets where it makes sense, look at Collingwood they have traded Grundy and Treloar and haven't missed a beat but those 3 are heart and soul players who so far have bled for the club, they are also on long term big $ deals so no one is paying overs to acquire them, we would end up p1ssing them off so much even contemplating the idea that they demand to be traded to Geelong and we get a 2nd round and pay 1/2 the salary..

It's trading out 3 player's who are leaders but not leading compared to other leaders from other clubs. What do we mean what sort of club would we have? We would bring in experienced leaders and fresh talent. Other clubs have done the same and turned it around, why wouldn't it work for us. They've seen 3 sacked coaches, and now soon a 4th, how can they be heart and soul? What a load of rubbish, no player is bigger than the club.

 

[charred_fate]

We’ve messed up by not bringing in good players who are approaching end of career for their talent and leadership imo. Especially to fill some of our glaring holes. We relied on our youth developing and paying for players in a similar age demographic.

It’s backfired.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

It's trading out 3 player's who are leaders but not leading compared to other leaders from other clubs. What do we mean what sort of club would we have? We would bring in experienced leaders and fresh talent. Other clubs have done the same and turned it around, why wouldn't it work for us. They've seen 3 sacked coaches, and now soon a 4th, how can they be heart and soul? What a load of rubbish, no player is bigger than the club.

You would probably be replacing our best leaders and expecting lesser leaders to be better

 

[The Return of the Paf]

It isn't about 'stars' versus an even spread of dependable types. We've been through the latter and they weren't very dependable. It's about having dynamics in the side, an AFL side isn't the sum of it's collective parts. Getting the right dynamics into the side and the lesser lights play like minor stars. One thing I've noticed is that premierships are often won by sides with players having breakout seasons. We've been trying to fill needs in order of preference year after with less than ideal draft resources, thinking that limited requirements will be enough. Players are retiring, being de-listed or dropping away, and we've been replacing them with similar types in increments. The point is, there are few types of players we don't need and our list management continues to be very mechanical. If there wasn't a few talented father sons coming through (touch wood) in the coming years then I'd really despair, because it 'aint' going to fix itself the way we are going.

 

[Gw2_James]

You would probably be replacing our best leaders and expecting lesser leaders to be better

According to a recent article by Malthouse, he has pretty much said all 3 are lacking leadership. You could read it in the Voss thread, pretty much says Weitering is so quiet, docherty cant be relied on as a leader, Cripps needs more leadership support.

We dont have any real leaders, just players who put their heads down, confidence low because they have this loser mentality from back in the early days of the rebuild when we as a club failed them by not giving them experienced heads to learn/play with. They were fed to the wolves basically.

Individually these players are great, but they are no leaders. We lack leaders.

 

[Jeremias]

According to a recent article by Malthouse, he has pretty much said all 3 are lacking leadership. You could read it in the Voss thread, pretty much says Weitering is so quiet, docherty cant be relied on as a leader, Cripps needs more leadership support.

How many games did these three play under Mick and how old were they when they did?

Mick would have no more insight into the leadership of someone like Weitering - who arrived at the club following Mick's departure - than you or I would.

Funny how we discredit Malthouse for so much of what he did in his latter coaching years yet all of a sudden he's a voice worth listening to?

 

[Gw2_James]

How many games did these three play under Mick and how old were they when they did?

Mick would have no more insight into the leadership of someone like Weitering - who arrived at the club prior to Mick's departure - than you or I would.

Funny how we discredit Malthouse for so much of what he did in his latter coaching years yet all of a sudden he's a voice worth listening to?

I don't know if he's a voice worth listening to, i really don't. All i know is he's regarded as one of the best coaches ever, has actually coached these players. If we're not willing to listen to someone who has actually coached them, then i don't know.

 

[Jeremias]

I don't know if he's a voice worth listening to, i really don't. All i know is he's regarded as one of the best coaches ever, has actually coached these players. If we're not willing to listen to someone who has actually coached them, then i don't know.

He never coached Weitering.

 

[Monty1978]

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom like the rest of you .. we just have to insert some players with a bit of ticker that run and have half decent disposal .. high on the list for me with Austin is running capacity.
Feel like we missed the landscape a little of what AFL was Turing into.
We went the hard bodied slow midfielders extractors which dump kick everything where other teams went the fast paced players and don’t rely on getting every contested ball ..teams sit back now wait for us to get the contested pill and then burn us on the rebound.
We can’t have Hewitt , Kennedy , cripps walsh , cerra all in the midfield .. too slow

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

I remember Richmond’s philosophy when drafting and recruiting was around intensity and competitiveness. I think we need this badly. We have a group of talented introverts.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

We’ve messed up by not bringing in good players who are approaching end of career for their talent and leadership imo. Especially to fill some of our glaring holes. We relied on our youth developing and paying for players in a similar age demographic.

It’s backfired.

Yes I’ve said this for years. We needed to go after hodge, Breust, types.

 

[charred_fate]

Yes I’ve said this for years. We needed to go after hodge, Breust, types.

Yeah, same (as have many others). Looks like yet another example of poor management all round. There were many opportunities.. Goldstein another.

I’m not done with Hodge - reckon we should be pulling out all stops to get him into the club in a coaching/mentoring capacity, whatever he wants.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom like the rest of you .. we just have to insert some players with a bit of ticker that run and have half decent disposal .. high on the list for me with Austin is running capacity.
Feel like we missed the landscape a little of what AFL was Turing into.
We went the hard bodied slow midfielders extractors which dump kick everything where other teams went the fast paced players and don’t rely on getting every contested ball ..teams sit back now wait for us to get the contested pill and then burn us on the rebound.
We can’t have Hewitt , Kennedy , cripps walsh , cerra all in the midfield .. too slow

Cripps doesn't need to dump kick....he's just reverted to the mindset that he has to do everything himself....

 

[CJMB]

Well you’re assuming that hasn’t already been factored into list management decisions and contracts handed out over the last two years. Which if you have a decent list management team I wouldn’t find inconceivable.

For example, Cripps / H year 1 of new contract might be on $600k, then steps up to $900k by year 3 when McGovern, Dow, Plowman contracts roll off etc.

Don’t think we magically find ourselves $1.5m to play with because some maligned players contracts ending catches us by surprise…

…and is equally an assumption that every dollar from the players we (as in BF) expect to be gone is already accounted for?

There’s gonna be others who were probably planned on getting better deals than they’re looking at now for 2024+, perhaps some younger ones that we’d budgeted around improving faster than they have.

Effectively everything is an assumption because we can’t see the books. But we know 1st year players typically have a lower base wage than senior players, so if we’re moving on some old heads and replacing them through the draft then at least at that focussed level of In:Out we’re freeing up cap space.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Yes I’ve said this for years. We needed to go after hodge, Breust, types.

Who would you go after this year to fill that sort of role?

 

[Bostonian]

I would offer west coast McGovern , fisher and Jack Martin for the number 1 pick to start with
They need experienced players , not a newbie who won't hang around for more than 2 years.

I'd give them Cripps if it got us Harley Reid.

But a future around Walsh and Reid.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Who would you go after this year to fill that sort of role?

Not sure if there are many options now. I doubt any would want to come and play under our ‘system’ anyway.

I think our shot with this list of players is pretty much done.

 

[BlueTongue]

We need both a fresh new game plan and to continue rejuvenating and strengthening the bottom half of our list.

Our top 10 is what it is (unless one of our kids comes on quickly) and we must work around that.

Until we recruit players with good disposal by foot, our current Gameplan is not going to work becuase it largely involves isolating players on the run and hitting targets, both of which we are absolutely incapable of doing atm.

For the short term, we would be better dragging teams down to our level playing lock-down footy and keeping it down to a scrap, because 90% of the AFL sides now are playing a free flowing game that cuts us to pieces on the turnover.