Training 2023 Pre-season thread

[On the quiet]

I think Answerth is best 22. His kicking may be a bit skew whiff, but he's got the mongrel about him that I think we need.

I thought he was unfairly maligned by many on here for some of his performances last year. To be able to come back and play every game after having OP is a massive achievement. As for who he would displace from the team, I honestly wouldn't have a clue. Everyone who played on Friday played pretty so there'd be some very unlucky players.

Don't disagree, but I don't think Answerth plays when we are playing a taller forward line, both Melbourne and especially the Dogs had a stack of talls playing yesterday. I actually think we might have to play two rucks against Port, Melbourne and Dogs (all first three weeks), especially if Gardiner is not back and I don't think he will be for the early rounds.

 

[Kwickhatch]

If you want some light relief the Port board is a good laugh, a lot of posters writing off their season... Lions will flog us in round 1.... calling for Hinkley's head, gee I hope we destroy them.

You should read the Richmond board. Having four umps is clearly bias against the tigers hahaha

Hardwick himself has stated they push the boundaries and try to get away with as much niggle and agro as they can... But all their fans are then surprised they give away the most free kicks?

 

[twhowler]

Don't disagree, but I don't think Answerth plays when we are playing a taller forward line, both Melbourne and especially the Dogs had a stack of talls playing yesterday. I actually think we might have to play two rucks against Port, Melbourne and Dogs (all first three weeks), especially if Gardiner is not back and I don't think he will be for the early rounds.

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

 

[Dalions]

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

You would have to think that if the ball hits the ground in their forward line they will struggle to keep it in there and the ball will bounce out pretty easy you would think so it is a massive gamble.
And if their midfield isn’t as dominant as it has been previously then you would imagine it will be pretty dirty ball on most occasions.

 

[Quested]

I think the key will be to stifle their delivery inside 50 and try to make their i50s at least to difficult positions. I think our mids will be super important in those games to ensure no easy, high entries.

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

 

[martinson]

Poor Hugh, when you look at the stats from last year, he is close to the best goalkicking midfielder in the AFL.
In the chart below i requested midfielders and in disposal order. A reasonable guide to use
A few others that did not make the list you may be wondering about
Chad Warner going into his 4th year as a Swan could be the player to watch in 2023

Bontenpelli 24:21
Dangerfield 8:12
Cripps .......20:9
Dunkley..... 18:11
Warner .....20:24
Z Merrett.... 6:6
J Kelly .......9:9
Coniglio ....17.11
Viney ........8:3
Boak .......10:10

Rank	Player	2022 Goals & Behinds	Games	Disposals for Last Game	Total
1​	Clayton Oliver​	5:8 (5 goals 8 behinds)​	23​	21 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	753​
2​	Lachie Neale​	11:8​	25​	20 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	749​
3​	Jackson Macrae​	4:4​	23​	34 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	705​
4​	Andrew Brayshaw​	12:12​	24​	32 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	704​
5​	Christian Petracca​	19:31​	24​	27 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	673​
6​	Rory Laird​	7:8​	20​	26 v Port Adelaide, Round 23​	659​
8​	Will Brodie​	6:7​	24​	17 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	643​
9​	Sam Walsh​	5:7​	20​	27 v Melbourne, Round 22​	642​
10​	Touk Miller​	8:11​	22​	25 v North Melbourne, Round 23​	626​
12​	Cameron Guthrie​	12:12​	25​	16 v Sydney, Grand Final​	613​
14​	Luke Parker​	14:10​	25​	23 v Geelong, Grand Final​	611​
15​	Callum Mills​	10:3​	25​	13 v Geelong, Grand Final​	610​
18​	Oliver Wines​	6:11​	21​	35 v Adelaide, Round 23​	596​
19​	Jack Crisp​	12:8​	25​	29 v Sydney, Preliminary Finals​	595​
19​	Adam Treloar​	15:12​	22​	26 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	595​
21​	Hugh McCluggage​	20:18​	24​	17 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	59​

I think the key will be to stifle their delivery inside 50 and try to make their i50s at least to difficult positions. I think our mids will be super important in those games to ensure no easy, high entries.

Good players can overcome height ,weight ,physical deficiencies . It's been shown time and again for as long as I can remember.

I'd rather play someone who's not the right fit but at least is going to give whatever the situation is a crack and cause damage when he gets it ,than someone who's just there because he's physically suited. Especially if you have a good team with players who put in and know how to cover for you when you're up against it.

 

[POBT]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

 

[martinson]

When Brisbane had the 3 talls in our golden era you're talking 2 absolute champions who were the best player in the comp at certain points in their career and one who was exceptionally good. So of course it was going to work.

If the Dogs and Melbourne want to go really tall ,let them do it. I'm not at all convinced it'll work well against the better teams.

 

[Dalions]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Great post, and the time you have put in for the post. Hard to disagree with most of it.
Personally I have Fort soooo much closer to Oscar than you do.
He is a better lead, mark and better kick for goal when resting forward, just as good as Oscar around the ground and not too much different between the 2 when in the ruck, I pretty much have him ahead of Oscar.
I wish Oscar could jump a little when trying to mark the ball up forward, if he did he would mark so many more balls or get more free kicks.

 

[Viceregal]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into doing this list.

I remember looking at the depth in other teams' lists back in the day when we had trouble finding 22 AFL quality ready bodies to field a team some weeks with a certain amount of envy/wishing we were in a place like that ... well it is nice to be there now.

I wonder how many weeks in it will be before the Lid Off thread makes a comeback?

 

[martinson]

Great post, and the time you have put in for the post. Hard to disagree with most of it.
Personally I have Fort soooo much closer to Oscar than you do.
He is a better lead, mark and better kick for goal when resting forward, just as good as Oscar around the ground and not too much different between the 2 when in the ruck, I pretty much have him ahead of Oscar.
I wish Oscar could jump a little when trying to mark the ball up forward, if he did he would mark so many more balls or get more free kicks.

I've watched a few games from last year and reflected on it a bit and to me Fort is perennially underrated. Has always done the job when asked. Fairly good at most facets of the game for someone playing his role. I love Oscar but Fort's currently better imo.

 

[Berrygood]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Reading the Vfl wrap of the trial game v Southport, Answerth, Joyce and Lyons had better than good games. No mention of Lyons mobility around the park but as effective as ever in the middle. Good signs, will keep those ahead of them on their toes.

 

[Berrygood]

I've watched a few games from last year and reflected on it a bit and to me Fort is perennially underrated. Has always done the job when asked. Fairly good at most facets of the game for someone playing his role. I love Oscar but Fort's currently better imo.

I love Oscar too, he's that big bashful country lad you'd want as a mate. So glad we got Fort last year, he was certainly the back up we needed. I do think we underestimate both actually. Fort for the reasons you mentioned and I think we underrate Oscars fwd work and goal kicking ability. I think he's been pretty reliable over the years and has kicked some clutch goals when needed. Can clunk a mark or bring the ball to ground for the smalls.

We may not have a Gawn/Grundy ruck combo but I'll take these two. If we underestimate them I'm hoping opposition does too.

As to who's better at the moment I can only go by what I read. Fort does seem to have the edge but I think Big O will carry the no1 ruckman role into the start of the season. He will have to work hard to keep it tho.

 

[Milux]

Wilmot is a player.

Plays Round One thank you.

If it's at the expense of Rich or even Rayner, then so be it.

It hurts. But I tend to agree. For me the person missing would be Rayner. Although Rich didn't look his best the other night. Maybe he was just going through the motions of a pre season game.

What an absolute nightmare of a job Match selection have. We have around 30 capable Afl players to choose from.

 

[Section 5]

After the VFL practice match reports, these injured/rehab players will now be available for R1 selection.
Lyons, Answerth, Lohmann, Fletcher, Brain.
Hopefully Berry and Zorko are also ready for selection.
Gardiner unlikely going by reports.

If we are lucky, we may avoid injuries at training or setbacks for the returning from injury players.

Should our medical/fitness teams achieve that outcome, we will be in a good position. Fingers crossed.

 

[briztoon]

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

Did the Dogs actually play with 4 talls in their forward line at any time?

I would have thought they'd play a ruck and 3 tall forwards at all times.

Still, you've got Darcy at 208cm and Lobb at 207cm, surely you're playing our two tallest defenders on those two. Play Rayner on Naughton, who's the shortest at 195cm

 

[rye]

i wasnt overly impressed with footscray against north in the portions i watched

they cheated forward at every stoppage and opened up north who for whatever reason were doing the same when they were realistically never going to win the bulk of clearances against footscrays mature on-ballers. north's backline had no cohesion and was just bodies falling into each other as footscray got unpressured entries on to the heads of their talls. they werent punished for aggressive stoppage formation at all and the game outside of centre bounces was end to end footy with almost no pressure being exerted by either side in transition. its particularly hard to gauge how effective their forward line set up will be given just how woeful norths back 6 and midfield were at defending.

going the other way if north did win a clearance or the ball otherwise ended up there, footscray didnt even really have to care as the quality of entry was terrible and jones was allowed to play off an absolute crab and intercept everything. he would not be afforded that luxury against teams with halfway competent forwards.

 

[BuntonRules]

i wasnt overly impressed with footscray against north in the portions i watched

they cheated forward at every stoppage and opened up north who for whatever reason were doing the same when they were realistically never going to win the bulk of clearances against footscrays mature on-ballers. north's backline had no cohesion and was just bodies falling into each other as footscray got unpressured entries on to the heads of their talls. they werent punished for aggressive stoppage formation at all and the game outside of centre bounces was end to end footy with almost no pressure being exerted by either side in transition. its particularly hard to gauge how effective their forward line set up will be given just how woeful norths back 6 and midfield were at defending.

going the other way if north did win a clearance or the ball otherwise ended up there, footscray didnt even really have to care as the quality of entry was terrible and jones was allowed to play off an absolute crab and intercept everything. he would not be afforded that luxury against teams with halfway competent forwards.

Gunna be a long season for Clarko n the shinboners.

 

[Viceregal]

Gunna be a long season for Clarko n the shinboners.

Hope whatever he is being paid is worth it... then again someone had to coach and anyone 'lesser' would be walking into the Verdun sailent...

 

[BuntonRules]

Hope whatever he is being paid is worth it... then again someone had to coach and anyone 'lesser' would be walking into the Verdun sailent...

Obscure reference, but we all know he should have been walking in to an office in Hobart.

 

[Section 5]

Not that this chart for 1 preseason game means anything but here it is.

Position	Team	%	Position	Team	%
1	Crows	213.4	10	Hawks	100.0
2	Saints	209.4	11	Port	66.3
3	Lions	202.2	12	Suns	63.1
4	Swans	179.6	13	Kangaroos	59.4
5	Demons	170.4	14	Tigers	57.7
6	Dogs	168.2	15	Blues	55.7
7	Giants	158.4	16	Cats	49.5
8	Dockers	150.3	17	Bombers	47.8
9	Pies	106.0	18	Eagles	46.8

 

[M Malice]

Not that this chart for 1 preseason game means anything but here it is.

Position	Team	%	Position	Team	%
1	Crows	213.4	10	Hawks	100.0
2	Saints	209.4	11	Port	66.3
3	Lions	202.2	12	Suns	63.1
4	Swans	179.6	13	Kangaroos	59.4
5	Demons	170.4	14	Tigers	57.7
6	Dogs	168.2	15	Blues	55.7
7	Giants	158.4	16	Cats	49.5
8	Dockers	150.3	17	Bombers	47.8
9	Pies	106.0	18	Eagles	46.8

I'll take it, stop the season now, Saints away in a Qualifying Final, I fancy our chances.

 

[Viceregal]

Obscure reference, but we all know he should have been walking in to an office in Hobart.

The Germans in WW1 decided to invest the French city of Verdun which has a great deal of historical significance for the French. The idea was that the Germans could sit around the three sides of Verdun shelling the French and the French would keep sending men into the all-but-surrounded city and get mangled.

It actually worked pretty well ... the entrie French army was rotated through there and and ended up pretty wasted and would have ended the war in a German victory (at least on the Western Front ... which would have freed them up to turn and face the, at that time, advancing Russians who had not yet had their colour revolution).

Two things went wrong for them - firstly while the French did indeed get pounded the pesky British ended up taking over half the trench lines thus keeping the stalemate going and secondly the Germans ended up getting invested in the need for a German victory there (as opposed to just a trap for the French) and the pride/honour of the German Crown Prince.

Anyway what has any of that got to do with North and coaching ... basically anyone without an bulletproof track record as a coach was just going to be another offering to the meat grinder (like another French unit into the Verdun sailent)

 

[briztoon]

Hope whatever he is being paid is worth it... then again someone had to coach and anyone 'lesser' would be walking into the Verdun sailent...

 

[twhowler]

Did the Dogs actually play with 4 talls in their forward line at any time?

I would have thought they'd play a ruck and 3 tall forwards at all times.

Still, you've got Darcy at 208cm and Lobb at 207cm, surely you're playing our two tallest defenders on those two. Play Rayner on Naughton, who's the shortest at 195cm

Granted i only read match report but Tim English was ruck.

I take on board all the comments re crazy height won’t necessarily work and agree. But it will be interesting to see as if you add English in to the mix there’s some serious talent albeit mix of realised and to be confirmed. Would be a pick 9, pick 2 and pick 1!