List Mgmt. 2024 List Management Part 2 📃

[BlueJet]

Not at all.

My point is that if he is athletic enough to play in the AFL as a forward, he is athletic enough to play defence also.

Do I think defence will be his best spot in the long run? Not convinced.

Do I think we should try him there given our lack of options? Yes.

Not really.
He gets by forward due to workrate/repeat efforts, even still his position is in question to some degree.
It doesn't work in defence as if you get burned on a lead, you're getting goals kicked on you.
There was some viability pre-6-6-6 formation to him playing as a +1, in the modern game I see him getting isolated and exploited, unfortunately.
His best bet is the forward/ruck role, which sees him provide another marking option around the ground which we do need & prevent one of our Ferrari's in McKay copping a pounding.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Would he also fly in the pack and crowd their space or would he be crumbing though?
Not disagreeing about our entry strategy but how hard is it for the smalls to realise and play to their role ffs

And when are we getting news of delisting. Cmon already!!

An instinctive forward knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them, it's when they are are told to go against their instincts that they get themselves caught out of position. Our forwards are very rarely in a position they should be.

You would think the delistings wouldn't be too far away, unless Vossy is still hiding in the coaches box up in Brisbane

 

[Soapy V]

The player Dwayne Russell thinks Carlton should target to fill small forward hole

“There are players out there.”

www.sen.com.au

Haven't heard of us being linked to Sam Wicks, but I think he'd fit nicely.

I’ve mentioned him several times

 

[HarryFlashman]

An instinctive forward knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them, it's when they are are told to go against their instincts that they get themselves caught out of position. Our forwards are very rarely in a position they should be.

You would think the delistings wouldn't be too far away, unless Vossy is still hiding in the coaches box up in Brisbane

Pretty harsh to say he’s hiding!
We welded that door shut pretty well - he’s not getting out. Hope Wickzki remembers to feed him today- he forgot yesterday

 

[Juice030103]

I’d rather get Rosas than wicks

 

[Crippa#9]

We could put young Nick Watson in our forward line and his attacking instinct would be drilled out of him to become a defensive forward. Until we start making changings with our forward entries and setup, we will always fall back to the long kick to Charlie and Harry who will be outnumbered. Our forward setup is too easy to defend

Spot on. I am convinced that our small forwards (Durdin, Motlop & Fantasia) have had their instincts coached out of them.

Watching them it's obvious that it's all about their positioning at contest, their defensive role setup and NOT about actually hunting the footy / kicking goals. It's almost like they're afraid to do this for fear of the coaching staff's retribution.

Such a contrast to what we're seeing with the Hawthorn smalls...

Durdin was deadset running away from the contest last Saturday night.

Drives me mad.

I fear the same thing is/will happen to Moir also who looks an instinctive player. He's gonna end up bogged down in a dour defensive structure & role that he'll too forget how to be creative and score.

Time to release the shackles on one or two of them ffs.

 

[BlueJet]

We have a huge problem with our small forwards (apart from owies) not kicking enough goals…Goal tallies for 2024…

Matt Owies 33 goals ()

Lachlan Fogarty 9 goals

Orazio Fantasia 9 goals

Corey Durdin 7 goals

Jesse Motlop 6 goals

That is abysmal

There are a number of issues present with our smalls, some of it due to talent some due to the way we play.

We certainly have room for improved output/talent in these positions- how much improvement comes by way of in-house options such as Motlop, Moir & Hollands is a question we need to answer too.
Our smalls often have to press up to cover the defensive limitations elsewhere which sees them out of position for an offensive play when we do try to transition into attack.
Then, we also very rarely kick to them, oftentimes looking past open options to dump it on a stationary Charlie's head, with a defender reading the play and providing additional cover which then helps launch the opposition's rebound.

 

[bradfisher14]

I’d rather get Rosas than wicks

 

[Lukeblueboy]

I’d rather get Rosas than wicks

Or both juice

 

[DangerousD]

I love Fogarty but is this enough these days?

It’s enough if you’re getting lots of the ball but he’s not, laying tackles and applying pressure isn’t something to be gushed over, it should be a bare minimum requirement

 

[Soapy V]

It’s enough if you’re getting lots of the ball but he’s not, laying tackles and applying pressure isn’t something to be gushed over, it should be a bare minimum requirement

Agree. People keep saying a player has done well because "he tackles" or "covers a lot of ground". Surely, that is the bare minimum required these days?

 

[M_I_G]

You would think the delistings wouldn't be too far away, unless Vossy is still hiding in the coaches box up in Brisbane

Have we had club or him comment on this? Was truly bizarre.

 

[Soapy V]

Would Rosa & Wicks change our forward line for the better?

 

[gbatman]

On the forward line I know people have been swept up a bit by Kemp but I think JSOS is still the number 1 option for that third forward role currently. For me he has the best footy IQ and forward craft in our team (big call I know). His leading is good and acts as a good connector between the midfield and forward. Plus he has the capacity to do a role on an Andrews, Taylor type.

I would have it currently as
HF: E.Hollands McKay JSOS
FF: Williams Curnow Fogarty
INT: A small with positional awareness that can crumb

Fogarty Williams and Elijah aren't genuine forwards. Considering the names unmentioned, Cottrell is even worse. Motlop to me is more of a midfield who is too unfit to play there and has been typecast as a forward. The moment I first saw Motlop play I thought mid.

E Hollands just doesn't have the pace and overhead game required of a half forward. He's a mid. Williams lacks the overhead game but he kind of has all the rest, he seems to have some instinct there so Willing to let him have time to develop. Fogarty can not kick at all, hardly gets it and when he does often butchers it, his team mates often avoid going to him because of this. Simply does not have enough impact. Get a game because defensively he does a good job and he's in a team that is weak in this area. I like Silvagni but I would be giving Kemp first dibs in this role, he has been really impressive. Unless we do what I want and try Kemp on the wing.

I would say they have some instinct and ability to play forward but are far from what I would consider 100% natural forwards.

Silvagni, Curnow, McKay all read the game and position well and have the skills to create opportunities. Martin is a pure forward but is finished here.

Moir definitely plays senior football next season, when ever he is available. If he's in the VFL we make as well sack Voss then and there because it's obvious then that he is the problem.

Moir is the first Carlton player I have seen in a very long time who has really hit me as a natural half forward flank with high level ability. The last really good ones being a couple of Garlett's seasons and Matthew Lappin. Unfortunately we've been using this position as a place to park failed midfielders.

I do think that is sadly close to our best forward line next season but I wish it wasn't.

In terms of our needs. I actually think our backline is ok. You could have put Moore at full back and Houston on one of the flanks against Brisbane and the result would have been the same. The elephant in our room is our midfield and that has been super obvious for 3 good years now.

The good midfields when they aren't getting hands on it don't get blitzed like we do, they tackle and pressure enough to allow their defenders to play lose and intercept.

Until we rebuild the midfield we won't make progress. I think we may even struggle to make finals next season if we don't change the midfield as other teams who have made changes progress past us.

I wouldn't worry too much about defence. Until we can make at least 2 changes to our onball group and our small forward group we are in a whole heap of trouble.

Our defence is struggling because the midfield is not applying pressure, not tackling, can't catch the opposition and not sending the ball the other way enough. The forward line is struggling because the midfield can't move the ball well enough, they can't run quick enough to carry the ball and get separation around the field, they have no outside game. The other issue is the half forwards aren't good enough to present well enough to give us that connection.

I'd be really disappointed if this off season we only address defenders. It's not the biggest issue we have.

 

[blues4flag]

It’s enough if you’re getting lots of the ball but he’s not, laying tackles and applying pressure isn’t something to be gushed over, it should be a bare minimum requirement

If you exclude the Hawthorn game where he got injured in the first quarter, he's the number one goal assist player in the AFL, averaging 1.5 a game. Leading Petracca, Daniels, Cogs, Moore, Gulden, Young and Greene in the top 10.

He doesn't win a huge amount of ball, but more often than not he releases teammates into space by hand inside 50. Very valuable and underrated footballer

 

[carlton_99]

Fogarty Williams and Elijah aren't genuine forwards. Considering the names unmentioned, Cottrell is even worse. Motlop to me is more of a midfield who is too unfit to play there and has been typecast as a forward. The moment I first saw Motlop play I thought mid.

E Hollands just doesn't have the pace and overhead game required of a half forward. He's a mid. Williams lacks the overhead game but he kind of has all the rest, he seems to have some instinct there so Willing to let him have time to develop. Fogarty can not kick at all, hardly gets it and when he does often butchers it, his team mates often avoid going to him because of this. Simply does not have enough impact. Get a game because defensively he does a good job and he's in a team that is weak in this area. I like Silvagni but I would be giving Kemp first dibs in this role, he has been really impressive. Unless we do what I want and try Kemp on the wing.

I would say they have some instinct and ability to play forward but are far from what I would consider 100% natural forwards.

Silvagni, Curnow, McKay all read the game and position well and have the skills to create opportunities. Martin is a pure forward but is finished here.

Moir definitely plays senior football next season, when ever he is available. If he's in the VFL we make as well sack Voss then and there because it's obvious then that he is the problem.

Moir is the first Carlton player I have seen in a very long time who has really hit me as a natural half forward flank with high level ability. The last really good ones being a couple of Garlett's seasons and Matthew Lappin. Unfortunately we've been using this position as a place to park failed midfielders.

I do think that is sadly close to our best forward line next season but I wish it wasn't.

In terms of our needs. I actually think our backline is ok. You could have put Moore at full back and Houston on one of the flanks against Brisbane and the result would have been the same. The elephant in our room is our midfield and that has been super obvious for 3 good years now.

The good midfields when they aren't getting hands on it don't get blitzed like we do, they tackle and pressure enough to allow their defenders to play lose and intercept.

Until we rebuild the midfield we won't make progress. I think we may even struggle to make finals next season if we don't change the midfield as other teams who have made changes progress past us.

I wouldn't worry too much about defence. Until we can make at least 2 changes to our onball group and our small forward group we are in a whole heap of trouble.

Our defence is struggling because the midfield is not applying pressure, not tackling, can't catch the opposition and not sending the ball the other way enough. The forward line is struggling because the midfield can't move the ball well enough, they can't run quick enough to carry the ball and get separation around the field, they have no outside game. The other issue is the half forwards aren't good enough to present well enough to give us that connection.

I'd be really disappointed if this off season we only address defenders. It's not the biggest issue we have.

Elijah is in the F6 but will spend most of his time up the ground - I still want him getting CBAs and delivering the ball i50 for us. And this is just a very early set up - obviously if Moir continues to improve he will be fighting hard for a spot as well by the start of the 25' season.

I don't think I agree fully on Fogarty. I understand he isn't a massive ball winner but he pressures, is clean on ground level and sets up a lot of goals. Plus has the ability to go into a few CBAs for us if we need a different look. Very important player imo

 

[gbatman]

Elijah is in the F6 but will spend most of his time up the ground - I still want him getting CBAs and delivering the ball i50 for us. And this is just a very early set up - obviously if Moir continues to improve he will be fighting hard for a spot as well by the start of the 25' season.

He typically plays the plus 1 role, extra midfielder and is reasonable at it. I think he should be a part of our midfield rebuild and go on the ball although I am not convinced he is the player with the traits to really make a difference in there.

Moir doesn't have much competition, should be easy. Our small forward mix is rubbish.

Years of trying to turn failed mids into forwards is really coming to bite us.

 

[carlton_99]

He typically plays the plus 1 role, extra midfielder and is reasonable at it. I think he should be a part of our midfield rebuild and go on the ball although I am not convinced he is the player with the traits to really make a difference in there.

Moir doesn't have much competition, should be easy. Our small forward mix is rubbish.

Years of trying to turn failed mids into forwards is really coming to bite us.

I personally don't see Moir as a small forward. The way I see it is we have Charlie and Harry as locks and one more spot open for JSOS/Kemp/Moir. I don't think 4 of those players will work in the 22 - too tall imo

 

[Aphrodite]

Yes Weiters

 

[HarryFlashman]

If you exclude the Hawthorn game where he got injured in the first quarter, he's the number one goal assist player in the AFL, averaging 1.5 a game. Leading Petracca, Daniels, Cogs, Moore, Gulden, Young and Greene in the top 10.

He doesn't win a huge amount of ball, but more often than not he releases teammates into space by hand inside 50. Very valuable and underrated footballer

Could also be that he drops marks, doesn’t take clean possession & recovers enough to get the ball out for an assist
Fog is bare minimum standard,
we need that, but we also need to go past him to improve.
Shows how far we have fallen when the mark of a small forward is he applies pressure & doesn’t give up

 

[ctwenty1]

An instinctive forward knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them, it's when they are are told to go against their instincts that they get themselves caught out of position. Our forwards are very rarely in a position they should be.

You would think the delistings wouldn't be too far away, unless Vossy is still hiding in the coaches box up in Brisbane

Voss in the coaches box still waiting for the final blues supporters to stop bashing on the door and go home

 

[Blue Pulse]

Have we had club or him comment on this? Was truly bizarre.

No, I don't think they need to, but it was unusual for him.

I find it bizarre that coaches coach from the boundary as it just doesn't give a good overall view of the game, the running patterns and spread of opposition and what you could do to slow it or plug it. If we were running like a well oiled machine, different, but the more heads in the coaches box the better in my view.

 

[Soapy V]

I personally don't see Moir as a small forward. The way I see it is we have Charlie and Harry as locks and one more spot open for JSOS/Kemp/Moir. I don't think 4 of those players will work in the 22 - too tall imo

If Moir steps up early next year our forward mix really has questions. IMO McKay has to become 2nd Ruck option and Kemp up the ground otherwise we are getting way too tall

The mix of Charlie Moir plus McKay when not rucking is exciting. Just need the right smalls surrounding them. I'd like to see Walsh Elijah Lord pushing through forward line at times

 

[carlton_99]

If Moir steps up early next year our forward mix really has questions. IMO McKay has to become 2nd Ruck option and Kemp up the ground otherwise we are getting way too tall

The mix of Charlie Moir plus McKay when not rucking is exciting. Just need the right smalls surrounding them. I'd like to see Walsh Elijah Lord pushing through forward line at times

Yep I agree Charlie McKay and a Moir with smalls around them works well. I was more saying I wouldn't be adding a JSOS/Kemp on top of that in the F6.

 

[Sector 7G]

Yep I agree Charlie McKay and a Moir with smalls around them works well. I was more saying I wouldn't be adding a JSOS/Kemp on top of that in the F6.

The team normally picks 7 forwards. Assuming only 1 ruck H will be off the ground/rucking 30-35% of the time, Charlie off the ground 10 %. So you only have 3 talls in the forward line around 30-35% of the time. Otherwise you only have 1 tall up forward 55-60 of the time.